Latin Mass

[Armyvet007]

So you discredit the entire traditional Catholic spirituality with a “by the way” statement that has no basis in fact and is said as an aside, calling tradition a “fixation,” as if it were a psychological disorder.

**That was not my intent. I apologize for my poor words and the resulting insult.

My issue isn’t with traditionalists *. My issue is the “form over function” elements within traditionalism [it has to be in Latin to be valid, priests who don’t like/perform the TLM are somehow less of a priest then those that do, OF is somehow less reverent because it doesn’t have X or Y in it, the only reason you can do Z is because the Church gave special permission to Z but Z is still wrong/invalid, unless you go to a TLM you aren’t really a good Catholic, I’ll drive hours to another parish to find a TLM instead of going to my parish OF Mass, etc.] That to me smacks of people placing the form of the Mass above the function of it; and that’s the group I viewed the poster I was responding to be in based on- “we want to restore the remarkable heritage and history that the past few generations stole from us.” That has nothing do with function, but everything to do with form.

As to the fixation part, would “a static snapshot on one period in Church history” be a better way of stating it? Because that is what I see. Before and after X date/time period the Mass wasn’t as “perfect” as it is at X date/time period and it needs to return to how it was at X date/time period.

---

For someone who just called out someone else about “civility” you do an amazing job of showing disrespect to those on this particular forum who are drawn to traditional Catholic practices.

That I can’t argue with [even if my words matched what I meant to say]. It wasn’t civil.

(which, by the way, is NOT a fixation on American Catholicism as practiced during the first half of the 20th century)

Unlike you, I’ll offer at least one piece of evidence to support my claim. Take a look at most of the groups associated with the traditionalists and you’ll notice that they did not originate in America, but Europe. Furthermore, you’ll notice that traditional Catholicism is found all over the globe, not just in America. I’m sure Bishop Fellay would be amused to find out that he is fixated on American Catholicism…

Either stop attacking traditional Catholicism in the traditional Catholicism forum, or at least educate yourself and offer rational arguments, not unsupported asides.

**Why would I educate myself any further then I have? My first experience, actually my first awareness of traditionalism, was when I started coming to CAF and looking at the traditional forum. Imagine the shock of seeing threads full of posts that attack the Church, praise/created excuses for those who disobeyed it, decry non-traditionalists as being “less Catholic” then traditionalists, and frankly have the same “holier then thou” arrogance I see displayed by the anti-Catholic fundamentalists in my home town and by Americans in general toward anything different from American culture/society. What motivation would I have for educating myself on traditionalism when the first impression I get of it is so negative and when this first impression is repeatedly reinforced?
**

• PAX

Once again I apologize for my poor word choice and for the resulting insult. I also apologize for the lack of civility and the resulting hypocracy in my post. I am not trying to attack traditionalism. I am defending the non-traditionalism form and function of our faith [part of the issue could be that “a good offense is the best defense” is too ingrained in my thought process] from those within traditionalism that place form over function.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Once again I apologize for my poor word choice and for the resulting insult. I also apologize for the lack of civility and the resulting hypocracy in my post. I am not trying to attack traditionalism. I am defending the non-traditionalism form and function of our faith [part of the issue could be that “a good offense is the best defense” is too ingrained in my thought process] from those within traditionalism that place form over function.

It takes a good man to apologize – thank you – and I apologize for the curtness in my reply. Maybe I was operating on the “good offense is the best defense” strategy, too

Peace be with you, friend in Christ.

• PAX

 

[Armyvet007]

It takes a good man to apologize – thank you – and I apologize for the curtness in my reply. Maybe I was operating on the “good offense is the best defense” strategy, too

Peace be with you, friend in Christ.

• PAX

No, your reply was completely appropiate given my poor word choice. Nothing for you to apologize for.

 

[Cat]

As evangelical Protestants, what made you question whether or not you were truly in Christ’s church?

Thanks for asking. It’s actually off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

Our family was thrown out of our evangelical Protestant church. It’s called “ousting.” After we were thrown out, we were shunned.

A tribunal was called, my husband and I were told to be there, and when we arrived, a dozen people were there, several who had never met us and who we had never met.

A woman pastor accused me specifically of undermining authority of the pastors and “frightening the children.” (A year later, this same woman pastor was caught in a lie by a deacon, and fired from her position at the church.)

At one point in the tribunal, one of the men (who had never met me) told me that I was “unloveable and unteachable.” My husband stood up, prepared to punch the man in the mouth, but I told him to not do it, that it wasn’t worth getting arrested over. But he was furious with that man for insulting me.

At the end of the tribunal, we were told to leave the church.

The woman pastor’s charges were utterly false. Whenever I worked with the children in the church (music ministry, VBS, etc.) I always made sure that several other adults (parents of the children) were present. These adults all defended me, but unfortunately, they were not invited to the tribunal. In fact, they were told afterward that I had decided to leave. I didn’t communicate with any of them for over a year, but eventually, on the advice of a pastor that I still trusted (in my old childhood church), I wrote them a very brief letter explaining what had happened. It turns out they had asked over and over again why I was gone, and they had no idea that we had been ousted. Apparently several of them went to the pastors and defended me, but at that point, it didn’t matter.

The church has never called us to apologize for the false charges and their awful treatment of us. God will hold all of them accountable at their particular judgement.

The whole thing was horrific, and it caused my husband and me to stop attending church and reading the Bible. We didn’t stop believing in God, but we did stop trusting people. I had nightmares for year. For several weeks, I couldn’t stop crying, and I cried my way through each work day–kind of upsetting to all my work associates, but I couldn’t stop crying. My whole life was gone. I had never known any other kind of life other than the love and joy of church life, and now it was gone.

My older daughter stopped attending church in her college town. She told us that if they could kick us out, after all the dozens and dozens of ministries that we had done so faithfully over the years, then she had no chance in any church. Three years later, she converted to Catholicism, and is a very happy Catholic today.

My younger daughter stopped going to church and has never committed to any church since then. She and her husband will attend church (Mass) when we visit them, but they don’t go. I don’t blame her. She was horribly hurt by that church; they accused her of awful things, too.

After the tribunal as we were running out to our car (yes, we ran–it was so awful), I experienced a vision of a Bible shattering, like mica peeling off, and I KNEW that sola Scriptura was a lie of Satan. These men at the tribunal, and that woman pastor, had twisted the Bible to “prove” that my husband and I were at fault, and we had done nothing wrong. Several of the men were pastors and deacons who should KNOW the Bible, and yet, they were able to make it say whatever they wanted it to say. After that vision, I KNEW that the Bible alone was NOT our authority, because God would not establish any authority that could be used to hurt people as much as we were hurt by that church.

God was good to us during the ordeal, and He was the only One that I trusted.

So that’s how we started questioning our evangelical Protestant church.

Sounds like a “Journey Home” episode, doesn’t it? But it would have to be rated “H” for horrific.

 

[Armyvet007]

Thanks for asking. It’s actually off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

Our family was thrown out of our evangelical Protestant church. It’s called “ousting.” After we were thrown out, we were shunned.

A tribunal was called, my husband and I were told to be there, and when we arrived, a dozen people were there, several who had never met us and who we had never met.

A woman pastor accused me specifically of undermining authority of the pastors and “frightening the children.” (A year later, this same woman pastor was caught in a lie by a deacon, and fired from her position at the church.)

At one point in the tribunal, one of the men (who had never met me) told me that I was “unloveable and unteachable.” My husband stood up, prepared to punch the man in the mouth, but I told him to not do it, that it wasn’t worth getting arrested over. But he was furious with that man for insulting me.

At the end of the tribunal, we were told to leave the church.

The woman pastor’s charges were utterly false. Whenever I worked with the children in the church (music ministry, VBS, etc.) I always made sure that several other adults (parents of the children) were present. These adults all defended me, but unfortunately, they were not invited to the tribunal. In fact, they were told afterward that I had decided to leave. I didn’t communicate with any of them for over a year, but eventually, on the advice of a pastor that I still trusted (in my old childhood church), I wrote them a very brief letter explaining what had happened. It turns out they had asked over and over again why I was gone, and they had no idea that we had been ousted. Apparently several of them went to the pastors and defended me, but at that point, it didn’t matter.

The church has never called us to apologize for the false charges and their awful treatment of us. God will hold all of them accountable at their particular judgement.

The whole thing was horrific, and it caused my husband and me to stop attending church and reading the Bible. We didn’t stop believing in God, but we did stop trusting people. I had nightmares for year. For several weeks, I couldn’t stop crying, and I cried my way through each work day–kind of upsetting to all my work associates, but I couldn’t stop crying. My whole life was gone. I had never known any other kind of life other than the love and joy of church life, and now it was gone.

My older daughter stopped attending church in her college town. She told us that if they could kick us out, after all the dozens and dozens of ministries that we had done so faithfully over the years, then she had no chance in any church. Three years later, she converted to Catholicism, and is a very happy Catholic today.

My younger daughter stopped going to church and has never committed to any church since then. She and her husband will attend church (Mass) when we visit them, but they don’t go. I don’t blame her. She was horribly hurt by that church; they accused her of awful things, too.

After the tribunal as we were running out to our car (yes, we ran–it was so awful), I experienced a vision of a Bible shattering, like mica peeling off, and I KNEW that sola Scriptura was a lie of Satan. These men at the tribunal, and that woman pastor, had twisted the Bible to “prove” that my husband and I were at fault, and we had done nothing wrong. Several of the men were pastors and deacons who should KNOW the Bible, and yet, they were able to make it say whatever they wanted it to say. After that vision, I KNEW that the Bible alone was NOT our authority, because God would not establish any authority that could be used to hurt people as much as we were hurt by that church.

God was good to us during the ordeal, and He was the only One that I trusted.

So that’s how we started questioning our evangelical Protestant church.

Sounds like a “Journey Home” episode, doesn’t it? But it would have to be rated “H” for horrific.

Wow, that was horrible. I’m sorry you and your family had to go through that.

 

[Rich_C]

As to the fixation part, would “a static snapshot on one period in Church history” be a better way of stating it? Because that is what I see. Before and after X date/time period the Mass wasn’t as “perfect” as it is at X date/time period and it needs to return to how it was at X date/time period.

It’s hard to jump into this kind of discussion and address a single point without engaging lots of baggage, but I’ll try.

If one of the two forms of the Latin rite is “a static snapshot on one period in Church history,” it is undoubtedly the Ordinary Form. It’s a snapshot of the 1960s (though it is claimed to be a throwback to the 160s). The Extraordinary Form is the development of 2,000 years of excruciatingly slow evolution that the past 50 generations of Catholics would recognize. The EF is not bound to the 1950s or any other decade in the way the OF is.

I am happy you’re happy where you are, but your claim rings false and I felt compelled to answer it.

 

[jam070406]

Thanks for asking. It’s actually off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

Our family was thrown out of our evangelical Protestant church. It’s called “ousting.” After we were thrown out, we were shunned.

A tribunal was called, my husband and I were told to be there, and when we arrived, a dozen people were there, several who had never met us and who we had never met.

A woman pastor accused me specifically of undermining authority of the pastors and “frightening the children.” (A year later, this same woman pastor was caught in a lie by a deacon, and fired from her position at the church.)

At one point in the tribunal, one of the men (who had never met me) told me that I was “unloveable and unteachable.” My husband stood up, prepared to punch the man in the mouth, but I told him to not do it, that it wasn’t worth getting arrested over. But he was furious with that man for insulting me.

At the end of the tribunal, we were told to leave the church.

The woman pastor’s charges were utterly false. Whenever I worked with the children in the church (music ministry, VBS, etc.) I always made sure that several other adults (parents of the children) were present. These adults all defended me, but unfortunately, they were not invited to the tribunal. In fact, they were told afterward that I had decided to leave. I didn’t communicate with any of them for over a year, but eventually, on the advice of a pastor that I still trusted (in my old childhood church), I wrote them a very brief letter explaining what had happened. It turns out they had asked over and over again why I was gone, and they had no idea that we had been ousted. Apparently several of them went to the pastors and defended me, but at that point, it didn’t matter.

The church has never called us to apologize for the false charges and their awful treatment of us. God will hold all of them accountable at their particular judgement.

The whole thing was horrific, and it caused my husband and me to stop attending church and reading the Bible. We didn’t stop believing in God, but we did stop trusting people. I had nightmares for year. For several weeks, I couldn’t stop crying, and I cried my way through each work day–kind of upsetting to all my work associates, but I couldn’t stop crying. My whole life was gone. I had never known any other kind of life other than the love and joy of church life, and now it was gone.

My older daughter stopped attending church in her college town. She told us that if they could kick us out, after all the dozens and dozens of ministries that we had done so faithfully over the years, then she had no chance in any church. Three years later, she converted to Catholicism, and is a very happy Catholic today.

My younger daughter stopped going to church and has never committed to any church since then. She and her husband will attend church (Mass) when we visit them, but they don’t go. I don’t blame her. She was horribly hurt by that church; they accused her of awful things, too.

After the tribunal as we were running out to our car (yes, we ran–it was so awful), I experienced a vision of a Bible shattering, like mica peeling off, and I KNEW that sola Scriptura was a lie of Satan. These men at the tribunal, and that woman pastor, had twisted the Bible to “prove” that my husband and I were at fault, and we had done nothing wrong. Several of the men were pastors and deacons who should KNOW the Bible, and yet, they were able to make it say whatever they wanted it to say. After that vision, I KNEW that the Bible alone was NOT our authority, because God would not establish any authority that could be used to hurt people as much as we were hurt by that church.

God was good to us during the ordeal, and He was the only One that I trusted.

So that’s how we started questioning our evangelical Protestant church.

Sounds like a “Journey Home” episode, doesn’t it? But it would have to be rated “H” for horrific.

That’s awful Cat. God bless you and your family.

 

[clem456]

I hope they never stop having Latin Mass,see because today I was at Latin Mass and I begain to cry, just to be able to take part. Do you think that Latin Mass will contuinue to be with us for ever?. God Bless

If I could predict the future…
Yes I think the Latin Mass will be available.
I trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church regardless of what language is used at Mass.
My opinion is, the vernacular Mass has been a blessing, has enriched and converted the hearts of millions of Catholics, expanded their understanding of, and participation in, the Mass.

 

[Rich_C]

Thanks for asking. It’s actually off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

Our family was thrown out of our evangelical Protestant church. It’s called “ousting.” After we were thrown out, we were shunned.

A tribunal was called, my husband and I were told to be there, and when we arrived, a dozen people were there, several who had never met us and who we had never met.

A woman pastor accused me specifically of undermining authority of the pastors and “frightening the children.” (A year later, this same woman pastor was caught in a lie by a deacon, and fired from her position at the church.)

At one point in the tribunal, one of the men (who had never met me) told me that I was “unloveable and unteachable.” My husband stood up, prepared to punch the man in the mouth, but I told him to not do it, that it wasn’t worth getting arrested over. But he was furious with that man for insulting me.

At the end of the tribunal, we were told to leave the church.

The woman pastor’s charges were utterly false. Whenever I worked with the children in the church (music ministry, VBS, etc.) I always made sure that several other adults (parents of the children) were present. These adults all defended me, but unfortunately, they were not invited to the tribunal. In fact, they were told afterward that I had decided to leave. I didn’t communicate with any of them for over a year, but eventually, on the advice of a pastor that I still trusted (in my old childhood church), I wrote them a very brief letter explaining what had happened. It turns out they had asked over and over again why I was gone, and they had no idea that we had been ousted. Apparently several of them went to the pastors and defended me, but at that point, it didn’t matter.

The church has never called us to apologize for the false charges and their awful treatment of us. God will hold all of them accountable at their particular judgement.

The whole thing was horrific, and it caused my husband and me to stop attending church and reading the Bible. We didn’t stop believing in God, but we did stop trusting people. I had nightmares for year. For several weeks, I couldn’t stop crying, and I cried my way through each work day–kind of upsetting to all my work associates, but I couldn’t stop crying. My whole life was gone. I had never known any other kind of life other than the love and joy of church life, and now it was gone.

My older daughter stopped attending church in her college town. She told us that if they could kick us out, after all the dozens and dozens of ministries that we had done so faithfully over the years, then she had no chance in any church. Three years later, she converted to Catholicism, and is a very happy Catholic today.

My younger daughter stopped going to church and has never committed to any church since then. She and her husband will attend church (Mass) when we visit them, but they don’t go. I don’t blame her. She was horribly hurt by that church; they accused her of awful things, too.

After the tribunal as we were running out to our car (yes, we ran–it was so awful), I experienced a vision of a Bible shattering, like mica peeling off, and I KNEW that sola Scriptura was a lie of Satan. These men at the tribunal, and that woman pastor, had twisted the Bible to “prove” that my husband and I were at fault, and we had done nothing wrong. Several of the men were pastors and deacons who should KNOW the Bible, and yet, they were able to make it say whatever they wanted it to say. After that vision, I KNEW that the Bible alone was NOT our authority, because God would not establish any authority that could be used to hurt people as much as we were hurt by that church.

God was good to us during the ordeal, and He was the only One that I trusted.

So that’s how we started questioning our evangelical Protestant church.

Sounds like a “Journey Home” episode, doesn’t it? But it would have to be rated “H” for horrific.

Cat I’m sorry you went through that but I’m so glad that God brought you into His Church. I’ll say a prayer for your youngest daughter and her family.

 

[Ohana]

I think both forms will be with us for a while. It appears that the OF may wane, but as it is brought in line with the GIRM I think it will survive. I see a lot of Bishops working to increase the EF in their diocese. In a former diocese, the new Bishop there has declared that each parish is to offer one as priests are trained and assigned who are familiar with it. Some have commented that that cost may be and issue. I would point out the priests celebrated this Mass in the field during WW2 with little more than a stole, unleavened bread and wine.

 

[Rich_C]

I think both forms will be with us for a while. It appears that the OF may wane, but as it is brought in line with the GIRM I think it will survive. I see a lot of Bishops working to increase the EF in their diocese. In a former diocese, the new Bishop there has declared that each parish is to offer one as priests are trained and assigned who are familiar with it. Some have commented that that cost may be and issue. I would point out the priests celebrated this Mass in the field during WW2 with little more than a stole, unleavened bread and wine.

That is what I pray for every day. I think if the day ever comes when every Catholic can easily assist at either form, the Church will see a great renewal.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Thanks for asking. It’s actually off topic, so I’ll try to be brief.

Our family was thrown out of our evangelical Protestant church. It’s called “ousting.” After we were thrown out, we were shunned.

A tribunal was called, my husband and I were told to be there, and when we arrived, a dozen people were there, several who had never met us and who we had never met.

A woman pastor accused me specifically of undermining authority of the pastors and “frightening the children.” (A year later, this same woman pastor was caught in a lie by a deacon, and fired from her position at the church.)

At one point in the tribunal, one of the men (who had never met me) told me that I was “unloveable and unteachable.” My husband stood up, prepared to punch the man in the mouth, but I told him to not do it, that it wasn’t worth getting arrested over. But he was furious with that man for insulting me.

At the end of the tribunal, we were told to leave the church.

The woman pastor’s charges were utterly false. Whenever I worked with the children in the church (music ministry, VBS, etc.) I always made sure that several other adults (parents of the children) were present. These adults all defended me, but unfortunately, they were not invited to the tribunal. In fact, they were told afterward that I had decided to leave. I didn’t communicate with any of them for over a year, but eventually, on the advice of a pastor that I still trusted (in my old childhood church), I wrote them a very brief letter explaining what had happened. It turns out they had asked over and over again why I was gone, and they had no idea that we had been ousted. Apparently several of them went to the pastors and defended me, but at that point, it didn’t matter.

The church has never called us to apologize for the false charges and their awful treatment of us. God will hold all of them accountable at their particular judgement.

The whole thing was horrific, and it caused my husband and me to stop attending church and reading the Bible. We didn’t stop believing in God, but we did stop trusting people. I had nightmares for year. For several weeks, I couldn’t stop crying, and I cried my way through each work day–kind of upsetting to all my work associates, but I couldn’t stop crying. My whole life was gone. I had never known any other kind of life other than the love and joy of church life, and now it was gone.

My older daughter stopped attending church in her college town. She told us that if they could kick us out, after all the dozens and dozens of ministries that we had done so faithfully over the years, then she had no chance in any church. Three years later, she converted to Catholicism, and is a very happy Catholic today.

My younger daughter stopped going to church and has never committed to any church since then. She and her husband will attend church (Mass) when we visit them, but they don’t go. I don’t blame her. She was horribly hurt by that church; they accused her of awful things, too.

After the tribunal as we were running out to our car (yes, we ran–it was so awful), I experienced a vision of a Bible shattering, like mica peeling off, and I KNEW that sola Scriptura was a lie of Satan. These men at the tribunal, and that woman pastor, had twisted the Bible to “prove” that my husband and I were at fault, and we had done nothing wrong. Several of the men were pastors and deacons who should KNOW the Bible, and yet, they were able to make it say whatever they wanted it to say. After that vision, I KNEW that the Bible alone was NOT our authority, because God would not establish any authority that could be used to hurt people as much as we were hurt by that church.

God was good to us during the ordeal, and He was the only One that I trusted.

So that’s how we started questioning our evangelical Protestant church.

Sounds like a “Journey Home” episode, doesn’t it? But it would have to be rated “H” for horrific.

That sounds like it would be a very frightening and disheartening experience.
Blesssings to your family and we are glad you are here.

 

[ProVobis]

My opinion is, the vernacular Mass has been a blessing, has enriched and converted the hearts of millions of Catholics, expanded their understanding of, and participation in, the Mass.

It has but the English-speaking crowds have left in droves.

 

[clem456]

It has but the English-speaking crowds have left in droves.

Are you intending to say people have left the Church because of the use of English in the Mass?

 

[ProVobis]

Are you intending to say people have left the Church because of the use of English in the Mass?

I don’t know the reasons. But stats are stats, make what you want with them.

 

[Cat]

I think both forms will be with us for a while. It appears that the OF may wane, but as it is brought in line with the GIRM I think it will survive. I see a lot of Bishops working to increase the EF in their diocese. In a former diocese, the new Bishop there has declared that each parish is to offer one as priests are trained and assigned who are familiar with it. Some have commented that that cost may be and issue. I would point out the priests celebrated this Mass in the field during WW2 with little more than a stole, unleavened bread and wine.

But would this happen? Would a “simple form” of the EF Mass be acceptable? Is it even allowed, other than in hardship situations like wartime or prison camps?

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from what I have seen here on CAF, one of the reasons people prefer the EF Mass is that it is so much more elaborate and in their opinion, beautiful. I’ve specifically seen the magnificent vestments mentioned. I can’t imagine that the faithful would be happy with anything unelaborate.

 

[floresco]

But would this happen? Would a “simple form” of the EF Mass be acceptable? Is it even allowed, other than in hardship situations like wartime or prison camps?

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from what I have seen here on CAF, one of the reasons people prefer the EF Mass is that it is so much more elaborate and in their opinion, beautiful. I’ve specifically seen the magnificent vestments mentioned. I can’t imagine that the faithful would be happy with anything unelaborate.

The “Low Mass” is a less elaborate form of the EF that has been around for a long time. Back before the OF was introduced, many people preferred this because it was shorter. I love attending both Low Mass and High Mass.

Speaking for myself, I would be happy with something even less elaborate than the Low Mass. I could do without the beautiful vestments or altar furnishings. What I love ithe most are the prayers of the EF Mass and its periods of reverent silence.

 

[ProVobis]

Would a “simple form” of the EF Mass be acceptable?

Many have attacked it already as being a Mass which can be done in 7 minutes. I don’t know how much simpler we can make it.

 

[liturgyluver]

It has but the English-speaking crowds have left in droves.

Possibly because many in the US and Uk seem relatively to have more of need for the Latin, and were very resistent to the Liturgical movement. In most EuropeanCatholic countries, Latin Mass is as rare as a hen’s tooth. When I attend in central London foreign visitors always ask me, very puzzled, why Latin?

 

[ProVobis]

When I attend in central London foreign visitors always ask me, very puzzled, why Latin?

This is the same question the Reformers asked 500 years ago. But aren’t many if not most Protestant liturgies said in some Germanic tongue? At least it seemed that way up until Vatican II. I don’t have a theory about native Polish and Spanish speaking people as most of them are Catholic to begin with so maybe there is something with the culture that has more to do with it than language, though language does define culture to a degree. Even Classical Latin, generally taught in schools, is different than Ecclestiastical (Church) Latin, though most of its grammar and vocabulary are the same. But we don’t generally have the same meanings in worship as we do in studying Roman or Greek mythology. However, maybe some don’t see that difference, I don’t know.