Latin Ordinary Form

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This is a random question that came to me awhile ago, but a thread about priests and the traditional Mass reminded me of it.

Let’s say Father Smith at St. Somebody parish down in Smalltown, Kentucky (just for instance) decides one day that he wants to start saying all of the Masses entirely or mostly in Latin. That is, Ordinary Form Masses, in Latin. Is there any reason that he would not be able to just start doing that on his own initiative? Or let’s say the congregation complained about it, could, say, the bishop tell him he can’t say the Mass in Latin (or all in Latin or a larger part of it in Latin or what have you)?

(Theoretically I suppose this could apply to using any language other than the vernacular of a given area, though I don’t know what would possess Father Smith in Kentucky to want to celebrate Mass in Swahili or what have you.)
 
This is a random question that came to me awhile ago, but a thread about priests and the traditional Mass reminded me of it.

Let’s say Father Smith at St. Somebody parish down in Smalltown, Kentucky (just for instance) decides one day that he wants to start saying all of the Masses entirely or mostly in Latin. That is, Ordinary Form Masses, in Latin. Is there any reason that he would not be able to just start doing that on his own initiative? Or let’s say the congregation complained about it, could, say, the bishop tell him he can’t say the Mass in Latin (or all in Latin or a larger part of it in Latin or what have you)?
I don’t think there is any reason he cannot do it on his own. In fact, as I understand it, Latin is the default Language that the the Ordinary Form is to be said in (the official Missal is in Latin). Using the vernacular is the option and the vernacular used must be one approved by the Bishops conference for that region.

The Bishop could always tell Father to stop saying the Mass in Latin and Father should obey his Bishop however I think Father would have a case to appeal for I am not sure the Bishop would be able to, in essence, suppress the Latin form of the Mass.

These are just my Wednesday afternoon musings. I am sure either one of our beloved Priests, Deacons or liturgy experts will be along with more detailed answers.😉
 
Backlash is pretty much the main reason. Everything else admits that the Ordinary Form in Latin is not only permitted, but normative.
 
A priest can do that if he wants, but will most likely never hear the end of it from vocal parishenors. Also, some parishenors might start calling/emailing the Bishop and it would most likely get to the point where the Bishop would say “your parishenors wont stop contacting me because you are not offering any English masses. Will you please handle this.”

You would be surprised how many people complain to priests about this and that every single day.
 
If that happened and the people objected by moving parishes, the priest would find a virtually empty church with next to no funds or support, and I suspect would be invited for a heart to heart with the Bishop. Only a foolish priest would drive his flock away because of his wishes, instead of feeding them. One of our priests had to learn English in order to carry out his full priestly duties - it was too much to expect the whole congregation to learn Polish (NB. That parish also has a English speaking priest so the sheep were fed).

I don’t know how it works elsewhere but in our pastoral area the churches usually work together, so all parishes have the main regular masses in English but one has additional Sunday Masses in Polish, another in Latin and another in Italian. Every now and then there is a special mass in another language (usually celebrated by a visiting priest).
 
If that happened and the people objected by moving parishes, the priest would find a virtually empty church with next to no funds or support, and I suspect would be invited for a heart to heart with the Bishop. It would be a very foolish priest who did not feed his flock but drove them away.

I don’t know how it works elsewhere but in our pastoral area the churches usually work together, so all parishes have the main regular masses in English but one has additional Sunday Masses in Polish, another in Latin and another in Italian. Every now and then there is a special mass in another language (usually celebrated by a visiting priest).
 
A priest can do that if he wants, but will most likely never hear the end of it from vocal parishenors. Also, some parishenors might start calling/emailing the Bishop and it would most likely get to the point where the Bishop would say “your parishenors wont stop contacting me because you are not offering any English masses. Will you please handle this.”

You would be surprised how many people complain to priests about this and that every single day.
Yes, the more Latin, the more the “vocal opposition” raises the volume. In some places, the image a priest doing that facing an angry crowd brandishing torches and pitchforks comes to mind. :eek:

As a related aside, it kind of makes me laugh that a priest can, (in theory, at least, keeping the above in mind), do the Novus Ordo in Latin at his own volition, but has to jump through episcopal hoops to offer Mass in the Usus Antiquior. 🤷
 
Depends on the diocese. Our Archbishop has been very vocal about saying that any priest needs his permission to say Mass in Latin, in either form, and that he feels there are enough Latin Masses in our diocese already. If a pastor was to try to do what you propose, he would certainly incur the wrath of the chancery.

So, I don’t know about Kentucky but here, it would be a problem.
 
This is a random question that came to me awhile ago, but a thread about priests and the traditional Mass reminded me of it.

Let’s say Father Smith at St. Somebody parish down in Smalltown, Kentucky (just for instance) decides one day that he wants to start saying all of the Masses entirely or mostly in Latin. That is, Ordinary Form Masses, in Latin. Is there any reason that he would not be able to just start doing that on his own initiative? Or let’s say the congregation complained about it, could, say, the bishop tell him he can’t say the Mass in Latin (or all in Latin or a larger part of it in Latin or what have you)?

(Theoretically I suppose this could apply to using any language other than the vernacular of a given area, though I don’t know what would possess Father Smith in Kentucky to want to celebrate Mass in Swahili or what have you.)
Some priests in Minnesota and Madison, WI have started doing just this, and facing East during Mass as the Vatican 2 documents intended, with the knowledge of their bishop. They spent months teaching the parishioners about the Traditions behind this and didn’t just do it on a random Sunday… no complaints, but due to the pastoral practices of the priests and their supportive bishop
 
I would be surprised if the bishop would tell him to stop saying the Mass in Latin, he would probably encourage a mixture, some Masses in English and some in Latin. There is a Jesuit-run parish a few miles down the road from me, they do three Masses on a Sunday. One is a (Novus Ordo) Latin Mass, but there are two other Masses in English. Everyone seems fine with that arrangement.
 
This is a random question that came to me awhile ago, but a thread about priests and the traditional Mass reminded me of it.

Let’s say Father Smith at St. Somebody parish down in Smalltown, Kentucky (just for instance) decides one day that he wants to start saying all of the Masses entirely or mostly in Latin. That is, Ordinary Form Masses, in Latin. Is there any reason that he would not be able to just start doing that on his own initiative? Or let’s say the congregation complained about it, could, say, the bishop tell him he can’t say the Mass in Latin (or all in Latin or a larger part of it in Latin or what have you)?

(Theoretically I suppose this could apply to using any language other than the vernacular of a given area, though I don’t know what would possess Father Smith in Kentucky to want to celebrate Mass in Swahili or what have you.)
Theoretically, a priest can switch between Latin and the vernacular, but it seems he would have to have a Latin-vernacular side-by-side missal. I understand most Missals printed now are in one language only.
 
So it sounds like the main obstacle that would have to be dealt with is a congregation that’s not receptive, which is basically what I figured. Latin being normative in the Ordinary Form was something I should have known (and I’m sure I did, don’t know how I forgot). So something like what SyroMalankara mentions would probably be a good idea.

Thanks to all.
 
FWIW I’ve been to a few OF Masses in Latin. Most have been at monasteries in Europe. One was in Canada at a funeral, the deceased’s son sang in a schola and requested it. A monk was found willing to celebrate it.

Our local abbey, of which I’m oblate, does a hybrid. The Propers are in Latin Gregorian chant, as is the Ordinary (with the greek Kyrie), all following the current (1974) Graduale Romanum. The rest isn French plainchant. Even the readings are chanted; the only part of the Mass that is not chanted is the homily. It is very beautiful, correct down to the tiniest liturgical detail, and very reverent. Bells and incense and organ where appropriate, but the chant is always a cappella as Gregorian chant should be.

It is not ad oritentem as it is a concelebrated Mass.

Please pray for the monks as they are short on vocations, and long in years.
 
Depends on the diocese. Our Archbishop has been very vocal about saying that any priest needs his permission to say Mass in Latin, in either form, and that he feels there are enough Latin Masses in our diocese already. If a pastor was to try to do what you propose, he would certainly incur the wrath of the chancery.

So, I don’t know about Kentucky but here, it would be a problem.
That’s sad. When people say “Latin Mass” they generally mean the Extraordinary Form. The language and the form are two different things. The fathers of the Second Vatican Council never intended to lock Latin away and were quite clear that all Catholics know at least the basic prayers in Latin. It is listed as one of the pastor’s obligations if I remember correctly (maybe not worded that way).

That being said, I know many people seem to have an allergic reaction to Latin in particular. I know one person that is incensed by using Agnus Dei, but has no problem going to a Spanish language Mass despite the fact that he don’t speak Spanish. 🤷
 
This is a random question that came to me awhile ago, but a thread about priests and the traditional Mass reminded me of it.

Let’s say Father Smith at St. Somebody parish down in Smalltown, Kentucky (just for instance) decides one day that he wants to start saying all of the Masses entirely or mostly in Latin. That is, Ordinary Form Masses, in Latin. Is there any reason that he would not be able to just start doing that on his own initiative? Or let’s say the congregation complained about it, could, say, the bishop tell him he can’t say the Mass in Latin (or all in Latin or a larger part of it in Latin or what have you)?

(Theoretically I suppose this could apply to using any language other than the vernacular of a given area, though I don’t know what would possess Father Smith in Kentucky to want to celebrate Mass in Swahili or what have you.)
As a priest who has had the care of souls, I was very attentive, as best I could, to providing for the spiritual needs of those entrusted to my care – that ultimately governed most of my pastoral decisions. Not personal preference. Not what I thought “should be” apart from the discernment of my bishop and my brother priests

I wouldn’t act in this matter, in other words, in a way that was not in accord with the mind of the bishop. He is the supreme moderator of the liturgy in the diocese and I am ordained to offer the liturgy as his co-worker…an extension of him to the flock entrusted to him but whom he can’t tend without his priest co-workers because of the vastness of the flock

While providing the indult Mass by assignment of the bishop, I was celebrating Mass in the vetus ordo and hearing confessions according to the vetus ordo. Those who had petitioned for the indult Mass would have, justifiably, reacted with umbrage if I’d imposed a novus ordo Mass upon them. It would be even more wrong to impose a vetus ordo celebration on a congregation expecting the novus ordo since, to use the terminology of Pope Benedict, the novus ordo is the ordinary form of the Roman Rite’s liturgy while the vetus ordo is an extraordinary expression of its liturgy

The norm in our parishes is that Mass is provided in the language of the people. That was what I did, whether it was the language of the country’s population or, in tandem with my brother priests, for other populations if I knew their language…which I had occasion to do. If, after that, there were people who wanted Mass in Latin and my responsibilities permitted me to do so, I did that too

For years, I had the rotation for a novus ordo Latin Mass that was celebrated in the diocese. Actually, it was more popular than the vetus ordo Mass. The ordinary and propers were in Latin. The readings, homily and bidding prayers were in the vernacular; the readings and bidding prayers always ended with Latin responses by the proclaimer and congregation respectively

The laity attending were those who enjoyed the language and had a fluency…to varying levels. I can’t say each person was responding but the level of their voices was the equal to any vernacular Mass in terms of the parts of the people being pronounced well and knowledgeably

Being the novus ordo, we had those assisting as readers and extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion and the lay ministry was vibrant…but it was a regular community from throughout the diocese who would come. Some had been classics majors or otherwise students of Latin. Those who were coming were coming to a Mass announced as being the novus ordo in Latin. The language was not sprung upon them

Now that I’m retired, when I say Mass privately, I regularly do the novus ordo in Latin. I’d gladly do it for a congregation expecting it and ready to have full, conscious, and active participation – such as our cloistered Religious. I would not, on the other hand, do it for a congregation that assembled expecting a scheduled vernacular Mass. I would for a congregation expecting a scheduled Latin Mass

I could see it happening unscheduled if, for instance, I collapsed while vesting in the sacristy and there was no other priest at hand but, let us say, a priest confrere who was visiting from Poland and who did not speak the vernacular but could say the Mass in the novus ordo in Latin while the readers did the readings in the vernacular and the choir or cantor did the hymns in the vernacular. I think everyone would be understanding in that circumstance

The people of a parish have the reasonable expectation that the Mass and sacraments will be in their vernacular language and if the priest is imposing something else upon them at his personal whim, the bishop should rightly inquire and, frankly, intervene

More than “backlash”, I think it is a matter of consideration and courtesy. In my experience, I do not encounter that many parishes today that have the luxury of choosing to do something based on the novelty of it. Aside from Mass in the language of the country, there is the need to provide Mass and the sacraments in the languages of the migrant communities.

To do Mass in Latin when it was not consonant with the mandate that the bishop has given the priest for the care of souls would be a legitimate reason for the bishop to assess whether this priest truly was the proper one for the assignment he was given.

I will add that since Latin remains the unifying language of the Roman Rite, it’s in a unique place. If your “Father Smith” in Kentucky is actually a priest from Africa who has volunteered to come to the United States because of the priest shortage in Kentucky, he very well may know Swahili better than he knows English. That fact should not govern the language in which he offers Mass…unless he is on retreat or a day off and wishes to celebrate in his maternal tongue in a celebration for which only he is present.
 
I could see it happening unscheduled if, for instance, I collapsed while vesting in the sacristy and there was no other priest at hand but, let us say, a priest confrere who was visiting from Poland and who did not speak the vernacular but could say the Mass in the novus ordo in Latin while the readers did the readings in the vernacular and the choir or cantor did the hymns in the vernacular. I think everyone would be understanding in that circumstance.
Back in 1995, our Latin Mass Community had the exact opposite happen. The elderly priest celebrating the indult Mass set down the chalice, started to genuflect, and collapsed.

I went over to the Augustinian monastery that was on the college campus where the Mass was celebrated, but none of the priests there could celebrate the old rite, so one came over and completed the Mass, using the Mass from the current missal. He used EP1 and we did not shake hands when he said the peace. Everyone was disappointed, but understood.
 
If that happened and the people objected by moving parishes, the priest would find a virtually empty church with next to no funds or support, and I suspect would be invited for a heart to heart with the Bishop. Only a foolish priest would drive his flock away because of his wishes, instead of feeding them. One of our priests had to learn English in order to carry out his full priestly duties - it was too much to expect the whole congregation to learn Polish (NB. That parish also has a English speaking priest so the sheep were fed).

I don’t know how it works elsewhere but in our pastoral area the churches usually work together, so all parishes have the main regular masses in English but one has additional Sunday Masses in Polish, another in Latin and another in Italian. Every now and then there is a special mass in another language (usually celebrated by a visiting priest).
This is 100% correct.

Our pastor says flat out, that if we don’t like what he is doing the quickest way to get rid of him is to stop putting money in the baskets.

He often makes “Pastoral decisions” and sometimes they are not universally popular. He reminds us that the offeratory has not decreased and so “I must be doing something right.”

-Tim-
 
I don’t think there is any reason he cannot do it on his own. In fact, as I understand it, Latin is the default Language that the the Ordinary Form is to be said in (the official Missal is in Latin). Using the vernacular is the option and the vernacular used must be one approved by the Bishops conference for that region.
Which is true but maintaining status quo is usually met with the least resistance.

It would take a major paradigm shift to incorporate Church Latin into the typical Catholic liturgy at this point. Maybe the next generation will restore it but that won’t happen if they are never exposed to it. Let’s face it, the vernacular is the most convenient venue for just about everything.
 
It is also possible to celebrate Mass partly in Latin and partly in English. I was at Westminster Cathedral about a week ago and they have the Pater Noster, Sanctus and preceding dialogue in Latin and the remainder in English.
 
It is also possible to celebrate Mass partly in Latin and partly in English. I was at Westminster Cathedral about a week ago and they have the Pater Noster, Sanctus and preceding dialogue in Latin and the remainder in English.
Yes, this is quite common. At our cathedral here in Vancouver, BC mass is often celebrated in English with a little Latin here and there (such as the Gloria or the Agnus Dei).
 
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