Latin pronunciation

[Hesychios]

As soon a Latin was carried to distant parts of the empire variations in pronunciation would have been obvious. This process began well before Christianity had any significant presence.

There always was a classical latin though, and scholars do not disagree on how it was pronounced, there are no conflicting theories about it. This wouldn’t be a good time to imagine one.

After the vulgar tongues became prominant in the far flung areas of Europe and the middle east the church-legal-scientific-mercantile uses continued. The Latin continued to show variations in pronunciation even in church use from region to region.

I read somewhere that the church stepped in recently (late 19th or early 20th century) and decided that the Italian dialect was to be preferred. Before that one could have heard a lot of differences depending upon region and things like what religious order or seminary a priest developed in.

I think it is very likely that the church used something like a classical Latin up through the fifth or sixth century, except for the smaller remote monasteries.

My thought is that learning the classical pronunciation would not be a bad thing, it would be great to read classical literature in the way it was written, and if the teacher wants to teach classical Latin so be it, it’s not worth arguing about.

Church Slavonic has the same dialectic issues, it is pronounced differently from region to region, again not a big deal.

 

[tee_eff_em]

A very nice article by Dr Peter Jones on the restored Classical pronunciation of Latin here Veni Vidi Vici and All That.

tee

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I recall that Cardinal Newman said that when people began to make a fuss over the pronunciation of what was no longer a vernacular tonque, then that is when Latin began to die as a common currency of European scholars.

And in Newman’s day, and well into the 20th century, educated Englishmen who knew Latin generally ascribed English pronunciation rules to the words. As Patrick O’Brian amusingly portrayed in a few of his novels, this could result in insuperable communication barriers between Latin-speaking Englishmen and Latin-speaking Continentals, even though they were each speaking the same “international” language of educated men.

So, we have three pronunciation methods to contend with:
For “queen,” Cicero would likely have said “reh-GHEEN-ah.”
A mediaeval churchman would have said “ray-JEEN-ah.”
An Englishman of Newman’s day would have said “ruh-JYNE-uh.”

And if it lends any perspective at all, the second Cicero finished declaiming and stepped down from his podium, he likely spoke to his fellow senators, family, and servants in his native Vulgar Latin, a language that differed markedly in vocabulary and pronunciation from the kind we learn in books, and the real ancestor of modern Spanish, Italian, French, etc.

 

[brotherhrolf]

So, we have three pronunciation methods to contend with:

For “queen,” Cicero would likely have said “reh-GHEEN-ah.”
A mediaeval churchman would have said “ray-JEEN-ah.”
An Englishman of Newman’s day would have said “ruh-JYNE-uh.”

Bravo!:clapping: This is the focal point! The Latin I learned as a child is the Latin of the medieval church. This is the Latin of the TLM. And I have had this discussion with a friend of mine who is a Latin classicist. The Latin of HMC is not the Latin of classical Rome but the Latin of the Middle Ages.

And I would disagree with Hesychios - I don’t think we’ve adopted an Italianate pronunciation of Latin. I can hear differences between the Latin in the US and Latin in Europe. They’re not great but you can hear them.

 

[chevalier]

I use the “Celtic” one:

regina: regheena
caelum: tzaelum
capio: kapio (no -i-o)
quod: kvod
scio: stzio
veni, vidi, vici: veni, vidi, vitzi

Sometimes when going through a prayer, I may be inclined towards more Italian-like sounds. When speaking English, generally the old English way unless it sounds like regaynah, which I can’t really support (it’s just too absurd), then I go by the church-y Italian kind of Latin. I never speak the kiwitas (civitas) kind of Latin. It just doesn’t sound good.

 

[Sarabande]

I didn’t read all of the posts, so excuse me if I repeat something that another person has already said.

I pronounce Latin the “Italian” way normally. Although, I would say that not all church Latin is the same. In France, for instance, I’ve been to mass where the Latin is pronounced differently from how we pronounce it here. Their “u” sound is noticably different. In Germany and Austria, they have a harder sound in their church Latin pronunciation. When I’ve performed sacred workds by Bach outside of Church, sometimes the director prefers to pronounce the Latin in the German way for historical reasons.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I use the “Celtic” one:

regina: regheena
caelum: tzaelum
capio: kapio (no -i-o)
quod: kvod
scio: stzio
veni, vidi, vici: veni, vidi, vitzi

Sometimes when going through a prayer, I may be inclined towards more Italian-like sounds. When speaking English, generally the old English way unless it sounds like regaynah, which I can’t really support (it’s just too absurd), then I go by the church-y Italian kind of Latin. I never speak the kiwitas (civitas) kind of Latin. It just doesn’t sound good.

Celtic one? You mean the one that I grew up with with all the Irish priests that came to America in the 19th century? I learned my Latin from the feet of these priests.

 

[BobP123]

If pronunciation is the only difference between B.C. and today, I’d say Latin held up pretty well. As opposed to old English and today’s English. (See the Our Father which I use in my signature to illustrate.)

 

[brotherhrolf]

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.

I first heard this pronounced in Old English on a medieval Christmas carol collection. It looks weird but anyone who speaks modern English and heard it pronounced would have no problem knowing what prayer it was.

English has experienced profound modifications unlike Latin. Old English is not Middle English. We have to accept what the Normans did to us. Middle English is not early modern English - there’s the whole deal of the profound glottal shift of the 1450s. Early modern English incorporates a whole buch of Latin.

A comparison of Latin and English is not, unfortunately even remotely in the realm of equivalent.

I grew up and learned my Latin responses in medieval church Latin. There are differences between the medieval church Latin pronunciation that I learned as a child and those of our European cousins.

One cannot downplay the sheer number of Irish priests who had such a profound impact on the American church. Forty percent of all Americans can claim Irish descent. The Latin that I learned was the Latin of Irish, Sicilian, German, English, French, Filipino and Croatian immigrants. It was medieval Latin. Works pretty good if you ask me. Yep, I can hear a difference between American pronunciation and Italian. I guess I’m just using the 1800s model. It’s still understandable.

 

[chevalier]

Celtic one? You mean the one that I grew up with with all the Irish priests that came to America in the 19th century? I learned my Latin from the feet of these priests.

For all I’ve been told, it’s the pronunciation Irish monks spread across Europe in early middle ages. It’s believed to be close to late-Empire pronunciation. It’s noticeably harder and stiffer than any Latin pronunciation I know. There is also some sense among its proponents of it being better than those vernacularly tainted patterns, but at the same time it’s not the Greek-like “restituted Latin” and the difference is huge. We say “tzivitas” for “civitas”, they say “kiwitas”. I think most cardinals use the Italianate one while in Rome, but if you’ve heard some noticeably different Latin coming from a Polish cardinal, chances are it’s the one I speak. Additionally, most clerics (and lawyers) will say “invitatzio” for “invitatio”, like in Italianate, which is the older way (more conservative but deemed less correct in this pattern of pronunciation) of rendering that sound.

Confusing, I know. I can record a Pater Noster or Credo to give you a general idea.