Latin pronunciation

[Langdell]

Do any priests performing the Tridentine Mass use classical rather than ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation? Because I was a classics major as an undergrad, ecclesiastical pronunciation has always sounded very odd to me. It would be nice to hear a mass said in Latin the way the ancients (supposedly) pronounced it.

For those who may not know, ecclesiastical pronunciation pronounces Latin pretty much the same way as Italian. Classical pronunciation is quite different – e.g., cs are always hard, the g is pronounced in gn combinations, js are pronounced like ys, and so on.

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[bpbasilphx]

According to instructions from Pope St. Pius X himself and rubrics in the Liber Usualis, the Roman pronunciation–that is, assimilated to modern Italian–is the norm for liturgical Latin.

 

[malphono]

Do any priests performing the Tridentine Mass use classical rather than ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation? Because I was a classics major as an undergrad, ecclesiastical pronunciation has always sounded very odd to me. It would be nice to hear a mass said in Latin the way the ancients (supposedly) pronounced it.

For those who may not know, ecclesiastical pronunciation pronounces Latin pretty much the same way as Italian. Classical pronunciation is quite different – e.g., cs are always hard, the g is pronounced in gn combinations, js are pronounced like ys, and so on. .

I should hope not. As you say, the so-called “classical pronunciation” is nothing more than what was “supposed” and is really quite harsh and “un-mediterranean” in sound. I have always found it interesting that those who made those :“suppositions” have traditionally been native speakers of Anglo-Germanic tongues.

 

[Filioque]

Weew, hawing been bwought up with ekwesiastwicaw Watin, since my entwance into the Chuwch, I find Kwassikew Watin to sound funny.

 

[roveau]

Oh that is wery funny.

Classical Latin is a reconstructed form of Latin. Ecclesiastical Latin has slowly evolved from the Latin spoken in Rome since the time of St Peter and St Paul. It hasn’t changed a lot from the original Latin. It does, however, conform to Italian pronunciation but then again Italian (in its many forms) has evolved from Latin too.

 

[Langdell]

According to instructions from Pope St. Pius X himself and rubrics in the Liber Usualis, the Roman pronunciation–that is, assimilated to modern Italian–is the norm for liturgical Latin.

If it’s against the rules, then I can certainly see why no one would use the classical pronunciation.

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[JSSebastianoP]

I should hope not. As you say, the so-called “classical pronunciation” is nothing more than what was “supposed” and is really quite harsh and “un-mediterranean” in sound. I have always found it interesting that those who made those :“suppositions” have traditionally been native speakers of Anglo-Germanic tongues.

I’m a proponent of teaching Ecclesiastical Latin in schools as the norm - but I think you may be mistaken. Classical pronunciation is the way the language was pronounced during a couple centuries BC. It was actually spoken like that at one time. Although I agree about the esthetics…

Pax.

 

[malphono]

I’m a proponent of teaching Ecclesiastical Latin in schools as the norm - but I think you may be mistaken. Classical pronunciation is the way the language was pronounced during a couple centuries BC. It was actually spoken like that at one time. Although I agree about the esthetics…

Pax.

Maybe, maybe not I’m old but not that old. … unless you were there at the time …

My point was that the bulk of the proponents of the so-called “classical” pronunciation were/are primarily native speakers of Anglo-Germanic tongues.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Maybe, maybe not I’m old but not that old. … unless you were there at the time …

No I was not there, but in linguistics you can reconstruct older forms easily. For example, we can be almost 100% certain that modern Japanese [h] corresponds to Protojaponic [p].

My point was that the bulk of the proponents of the so-called “classical” pronunciation were/are primarily native speakers of Anglo-Germanic tongues.

Can you name some. What we have to realize is that while Ecclesiastical Latin is the correct form today, Latin was once spoken differently. If I said “winegard” you probably wouldn’t know I was talking about a vineyard. In the same way, the ‘Classical’ pronunciation is outdated, but was correct at some point in time.

Pax.

 

[Langdell]

I’m a proponent of teaching Ecclesiastical Latin in schools as the norm - but I think you may be mistaken. Classical pronunciation is the way the language was pronounced during a couple centuries BC. It was actually spoken like that at one time. Although I agree about the esthetics…

Pax.

To each his own, I guess. The Gallic Wars of “Kai-zar” and the orations of “Kickero” are what I was raised on!

 

[JSSebastianoP]

To each his own, I guess. The Gallic Wars of “Kai-zar” and the orations of “Kickero” are what I was raised on!

Yeah - I guess I still have an affection for “tshe-zar” and “tshi-tshe-ro”

Pax.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Latin mass is, in most places, pronounced in the ecclesiastical - by which I mean Italian - fashion. Rome decided this was a good idea - it was after the medieval period I believe, my memory is foggy on this.

Before that, Europeans all pronounced it with their own regional accents. The new direction from Rome was actually quite controversial - the French, for example, demanded to be allowed to speak their Latin like Frenchmen.

Interestingly, a few places did hold out against the Italian form, and one of them was Poland. Although I haven’t seen them, my Latin prof from university told me there were some old films of John Paul II doing early Masses in Rome and he occasionally slips into the Polish idiom.

I don’t know why one would do it in the classical fashion, since it would be quite anachronistic. In general, I like the classical sound, it seems very characteristically Roman, but I have to except from that the w’s. It just makes me picture Elmer Fudd on the shores of Brittania in a toga shouting Weni, widi, wici!

 

[malphono]

No I was not there, but in linguistics you can reconstruct older forms easily. …

In the same way, the ‘Classical’ pronunciation is outdated, but was correct at some point in time.

Thank you, while that’s all very nice, (if not a bit patronizing, but I digress), my intent was not to engage in a discussion of linguistics, and I will not do so.

The OP was regarding the use of Latin in the EF, and that is what my original comment addressed. Irrespective of any argument regarding the “classical pronunciation” of Latin “having been correct at some point in time” (“during a couple centuries BC”), as far as I’m concerned it has no place in a liturgical setting.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Thank you, while that’s all very nice, (if not a bit patronizing, but I digress), my intent was not to engage in a discussion of linguistics, and I will not do so.

I’m sorry.

The OP was regarding the use of Latin in the EF, and that is what my original comment addressed. Irrespective of any argument regarding the “classical pronunciation” of Latin “having been correct at some point in time” (“during a couple centuries BC”), as far as I’m concerned it has no place in a liturgical setting.

It has no place in performing the mass or in regular activities - I wholeheartedly agree. But, while I do have a personal distaste for Clasical pronunciation, it is useful in a linguistic setting - and that can be used to help the Church. Imagine if we could prove the existence of a single original language - any bit of data can help that. So, it has use within the church, albeit scientific and not liturgical - it has absolutely no place in ordinary church settings.

To the OP, I’m sorry for derailing your thread.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming

Pax.

 

[Langdell]

I’m sorry.

It has no place in performing the mass or in regular activities - I wholeheartedly agree. But, while I do have a personal distaste for Clasical pronunciation, it is useful in a linguistic setting - and that can be used to help the Church. Imagine if we could prove the existence of a single original language - any bit of data can help that. So, it has use within the church, albeit scientific and not liturgical - it has absolutely no place in ordinary church settings.

To the OP, I’m sorry for derailing your thread.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming

Pax.

No need to apologize! I’m just glad people are participating.

How about this scenario? A priest says a Tridentine mass for students at the local Catholic high school who are studying Latin. All of the liturgy is spoken with the ecclesiastical pronunciation, but the homily (given in Latin for educational reasons) is spoken with the classical pronunciation. Something like this was done for the Latin students at the Catholic high school in my town when I was a teenager. (I wasn’t able to attend, unfortunately.)

 

[Bluegoat]

No need to apologize! I’m just glad people are participating.

How about this scenario? A priest says a Tridentine mass for students at the local Catholic high school who are studying Latin. All of the liturgy is spoken with the ecclesiastical pronunciation, but the homily (given in Latin for educational reasons) is spoken with the classical pronunciation. Something like this was done for the Latin students at the Catholic high school in my town when I was a teenager. (I wasn’t able to attend, unfortunately.)

I think that if the priest is up to giving the homily in Latin, he should use whatever pronunciation he feels most comfortable in!

 

[JSSebastianoP]

No need to apologize! I’m just glad people are participating.

Thank you. But I do still wish to apologize to malphono for any rudeness in my tone.

How about this scenario? A priest says a Tridentine mass for students at the local Catholic high school who are studying Latin. All of the liturgy is spoken with the ecclesiastical pronunciation, but the homily (given in Latin for educational reasons) is spoken with the classical pronunciation. Something like this was done for the Latin students at the Catholic high school in my town when I was a teenager. (I wasn’t able to attend, unfortunately.)

I don’t think that there’s a problem with that (although it would be grating on my ears - I can’t stand the restored pronunciation but that’s a personal preference). I don’t see any reason though, why the ecclesiastical pronunciation should be tought in schools (other than as an alternate pronunciation for historical value). The classical pronunciation is anachronistic. But, I don’t think it would be wrong to do such a thing (give homily with classical pronunciation).

Pax.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I’ve always wondered, how is it that all of a sudden in the 19th century the scholars discovered the “classical” way of Latin pronunciation? Did they stumble on tape recordings ? :whacky:

 

[JSSebastianoP]

I’ve always wondered, how is it that all of a sudden in the 19th century the scholars discovered the “classical” way of Latin pronunciation? Did they stumble on tape recordings ? :whacky:

No - historical linguistics as a field of study became more advanced so we could reconstruct it. That’s why it’s also called the “Restored pronunciation”. (I won’t go into details because I don’t want to derail the thread.)

Pax.

 

[Bluegoat]

Thank you. But I do still wish to apologize to malphono for any rudeness in my tone.

I don’t think that there’s a problem with that (although it would be grating on my ears - I can’t stand the restored pronunciation but that’s a personal preference). I don’t see any reason though, why the ecclesiastical pronunciation should be tought in schools (other than as an alternate pronunciation for historical value). The classical pronunciation is anachronistic. But, I don’t think it would be wrong to do such a thing (give homily with classical pronunciation).

Pax.

I’m a bit confused - do you mean you don’t know why the ecclesiastical pronunciation would not be taught in schools?

I think for reciting Virgil, or Cicero, it would be anachronistic to use the Italian pronunciation - the classical would be best.

When I studied Latin, we began with classical Rome and used the classical pronunciation. As we went on and read medieval sources, we learned the ecclesiastical accent. But even then, we never learned a German or French pronunciation, which would really have been best for reading authors from those places. Even ecclesiastical Latin is strictly speaking not the perfect choice for all medieval Latin texts.