Latin question

[jujubee]

I’m confused about the differences between Ecclesiastical and Classical Latin. Is the main difference pronunciation or is it greater than that?

My son is learning Latin in his non-Catholic school using Prima Latina. As I help him study I am also trying to follow along and learn too.

 

[bilop]

I’m confused about the differences between Ecclesiastical and Classical Latin. Is the main difference pronunciation or is it greater than that?

My son is learning Latin in his non-Catholic school using Prima Latina. As I help him study I am also trying to follow along and learn too.

Yes, mostly pronunciation.

I can’t stand classical pronunciation, or what they claim was classical (since 19th century).

Classicists will say weritas instead of veritas and Kickero instaed of Cicero.

Bah!

God Bless

 

[bpbasilphx]

Ecclesiastical/Liturgical Latin is pronounced basically as if it were Italian.

In the same way, Greeks (and Orthodox generally) pronouce Biblical and classical Greek as if it were modern Greek.

 

[tee_eff_em]

The most notable difference may be pronunciation, but yes, it is greater than that. The next most notable difference is that vulgar/Ecclesiastical Latin places more reliance on prepositions. And of course, there are vocabulary differences, which is only to be expected – Classical Latin peaked 100-200 years before Christ; Ecclesiastical Latin continues to be used and under (controlled) development today.

You might think of the Classical/Ecclesiastical difference similar to the difference between Shakespeare’s English, and modern American English. Either one ought to be comprehensible to a speaker of the other (though there may be a bit of effort involved).

:twocents:
tee

 

[jujubee]

So later this year he learns the Pater Noster. Can I anticipate any difference in how we say the prayer today?

I probably should have him bring his textbook home to help figure this out too.

 

[malphono]

Ecclesiastical/Liturgical Latin is pronounced basically as if it were Italian.

In the same way, Greeks (and Orthodox generally) pronouce Biblical and classical Greek as if it were modern Greek.

In Rome, yes, that’s basically true, and considering all things, I really don’t know how far it is from being the most authentic. As a sample parallel, it seems to me that modern British English is certainly closer to Shakespearean English than is modern American.

Native speakers of Portuguese, Spanish, and Romanian tend to pronounce Latin more or less in the “Roman” way, but if one listens to Latin pronounced by native speakers of French or German (or those who learned Latin in a French or German school), one will hear differences. For example, the French have a tendency to pronounce “R” and “H” in the French way while the Germans tend to harden “G” irrespective of where it sits in a word, more in the German fashion.

 

[JuanCarlos]

The main differences:

v’s become "w"s in Classical

c’s are pronounced as “ch” in Ecclesiastical if followed by a vowel.

 

[Jsmith17]

I’ve a question as well: With Spanish as one of the languages I grew up with I’ve always had the tendency of pronouncing Latin with Spanish pronunciation rules. Is this considered incorrect?

 

[tee_eff_em]

I’ve a question as well: With Spanish as one of the languages I grew up with I’ve always had the tendency of pronouncing Latin with Spanish pronunciation rules. Is this considered incorrect?

Considered by whom? And: How Spanish is your Spanish pronunciation? In a whole 'nother thread I write:

tee_eff_em:

Almost-Ecclesiastical Pronunciation Help.

A less-than-perfect but better-than-nothing pronunciation help can be GreekLatinAudio.com. You can listen to reading of the Vulgate bible (and, of course, you should [post=2538543]read along[/post]) – Not read with a typical Eccelesiastical pronunciation, but decidedly neither the restored Classical. The speaker hails from Texas, and has a rather Spanish accent (whether by accident or design I do not know), but it *is *close to Ecclesiastical.

What I mean above by a Spanish accent are things like:

• J pronounced as English H rather than consonantal-I/Y
• H completely (or almost) silent (which I consider incorrect – I say it should sound as in English, though some pronunciation guides will claim it is silent)
• Soft C pronounced as English S rather than CH
• QU pronounced as English K rather than KW
• Maybe other things (I have not listened to it much)

However: I still believe it is a valuable resource and an able attempt. I surely do not mean to seem too critical of a labor I myself am unwilling to take up.

tee

 

[totustuus2345]

I’ve a question as well: With Spanish as one of the languages I grew up with I’ve always had the tendency of pronouncing Latin with Spanish pronunciation rules. Is this considered incorrect?

Which pronunciation of Spanish? Latin American or Castilian?

In other words do you say:

the following is spelled phoneticly

Yo estaba dithiendo a mi mama que no quiero que ella conothca a mi esposa.

-or-

Yo estaba dic(s)iendo a mi mama que no quiero que ella conoz(s)ca a mi esposa.

I’ve heard a Mass part said as this:

Praetheptis salutaribus moniti et divina institututione formati, audemus dithere. I think you’re ok

 

[JuanCarlos]

Considered by whom? And: How Spanish is your Spanish pronunciation? In a whole 'nother thread I write:

What I mean above by a Spanish accent are things like:

• J pronounced as English H rather than consonantal-I/Y
• H completely (or almost) silent (which I consider incorrect – I say it should sound as in English, though some pronunciation guides will claim it is silent)
• Soft C pronounced as English S rather than CH
• QU pronounced as English K rather than KW
• Maybe other things (I have not listened to it much)

However: I still believe it is a valuable resource and an able attempt. I surely do not mean to seem too critical of a labor I myself am unwilling to take up.

tee

I have heard some recordings of Gregorian chant with a soft “c” instead of a “ch”.

e.g.: “Pater Noster, Qui es in (say-lease) caelis…”. Should be (chay-lease)

 

[Magnum_V8]

c’s are pronounced as “ch” in Ecclesiastical if followed by a vowel.

The “c” is hard -a k sound- if followed by the vowels “a”, “o”, “u” or the dipthong “au.”

“C” is soft -a ch sound- when followed by the vowels “e”, “i” or the dipthongs “ae” and “oe.”

 

[Ite_ad_Ioseph]

Yes, mostly pronunciation.

I can’t stand classical pronunciation, or what they claim was classical (since 19th century).

Classicists will say weritas instead of veritas and Kickero instaed of Cicero.

Bah!

God Bless

jujubee- Church Latin is pronounced the way it was around the 300’s, the way St. Augustine and St. Ambrose would have pronounced it. Besides, I’ve heard the classical pronunciation is just b.s. made up by Protestant scholars who don’t want to use Catholic pronunciation. Is this what you mean, bilop?

I remember hearing on a previous thread that when they excavated Pompeii they found the ‘Catholic’ Latin grammar and pronunciation( probably found out from poems and such) and the professors and scholars said they were wrong, even though they Pompeiians were the ones speaking the Latin first.

 

[Jsmith17]

Which pronunciation of Spanish? Latin American or Castilian?

Latin American for the most part… (Soy filipino, pero toda mi familia habla español porque mi bisabuelo era medio castellano. Mi mama aprendía hablar con un accento castellano pero cuando llegó a los EE.UU. lo perdió. Cuando yo era niño ella hablaba conmigo con un accento mas o menos latino, pero diferente de el de los mexicanos.)

I’ve heard a Mass part said as this:

Praetheptis salutaribus moniti et divina institututione formati, audemus dithere.

I would definitely laugh if I heard this.

 

[Jsmith17]

Considered by whom? And: How Spanish is your Spanish pronunciation? In a whole 'nother thread I write:

What I mean above by a Spanish accent are things like:

• J pronounced as English H rather than consonantal-I/Y
• H completely (or almost) silent (which I consider incorrect – I say it should sound as in English, though some pronunciation guides will claim it is silent)
• Soft C pronounced as English S rather than CH
• QU pronounced as English K rather than KW
• Maybe other things (I have not listened to it much)

However: I still believe it is a valuable resource and an able attempt. I surely do not mean to seem too critical of a labor I myself am unwilling to take up.

tee

These are basically all the things I do, although I do try to pronounce the J as a Y/I.

 

[eelpis]

I’ve a question as well: With Spanish as one of the languages I grew up with I’ve always had the tendency of pronouncing Latin with Spanish pronunciation rules. Is this considered incorrect?

No not in Spain and neither in Latin America.

I always have a laugh at the heavy English accent they have at the site of Sancta Missa. It sounds so funny. John Wayne as altar-server
“Introhiboh ad altarey…”

I’m used to the Roman pronunciation, but during the middle ages pronunciation of Latin differed quite a lot according to the country.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation

 

[tee_eff_em]

I’m used to the Roman pronunciation, but during the middle ages pronunciation of Latin differed quite a lot according to the country.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation

Yes, the Roman/Italianate is the sanctioned method, but – Middle ages nothing – I suspect more often than not, regional pronunciation is what occurs.

To [user]Jsmith17[/user]: IMHO, your pronunciation as Spanish would be understandable, just as English is still intelligible when pronounced by Hispanic, French, German, Chinese, or any non-native speaker (as, indeed, the audio files I linked above are understandable). And of course, we are all non-native speakers of Latin.

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

jujubee- Church Latin is pronounced the way it was around the 300’s, the way St. Augustine and St. Ambrose would have pronounced it. Besides, I’ve heard the classical pronunciation is just b.s. made up by Protestant scholars who don’t want to use Catholic pronunciation. Is this what you mean, bilop?

There are good reasons to believe the restored classical pronunciation is legitimate. And if you study classical authors (repeat: A hundred or two years before Christ), I suppose there are legitimate reasons to know and use it.

I just don’t know why anyone would insist on speaking thus today, any more than one might use Shakespearian English in daily speech?

I remember hearing on a previous thread that when they excavated Pompeii they found the ‘Catholic’ Latin grammar and pronunciation( probably found out from poems and such) and the professors and scholars said they were wrong, even though they Pompeiians were the ones speaking the Latin first.

While I am not aware of this, any evidence of pronunciation in Pompei would date no later than 79AD, by which time the pronunciation was already shifting.
I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on changes in word-order or the like, or if there even was a difference in classical times. (The classical texts I am aware of are just that – *Composed texts *-- Which I suspect are hardly representative of the daily speach of the *vulgus *(the common people)).

:twocents:
tee

 

[jujubee]

jujubee- Church Latin is pronounced the way it was around the 300’s, the way St. Augustine and St. Ambrose would have pronounced it. Besides, I’ve heard the classical pronunciation is just b.s. made up by Protestant scholars who don’t want to use Catholic pronunciation. Is this what you mean, bilop?

Yeah, I was a little suspicious of that myself. If the change in pronunciation happened after the Reformation I could see their point, but the 300s? Seriously.

Oh well, eventhough I don’t believe they are taught it in my son’s Latin class, he did come home recognizing the Glory Be in his textbook. And he seems to get a kick out of whispering “thanks be to God” in Latin when we are in Mass. I’ll keep the focus on the bright side.

 

[JSSebastianoP]

Ecclesiastical Latin is pronounced essentially the same as modern standard Italian. The only things I haven’t figured out (because my teacher uses restored/classical pronunciation) are the pronunciation of j, ph, and th. Two exceptions:
the words mihi and nihil are pronounced miki] and nikil] respectively in Ecclesiastical Latin.