Latin Songs In the English Mass.Why?

[steboyz]

**My bishop has stated that our diocese has two Latin masses and thats enough.Well my parish sings two songs in Latin during mass.One is called “Angus dea”
and the other …well I cannot spell it.Let me try …sorry.
I just wonder why the people who do the music in our parish insist on singing these songs. The page of these songs are not mentioned in the mass book and NO ONE in the parish knows the Latin in the song.Yesterday the melody of the song AD was changed but they still insist on singing the song! Why?

If you want to do a Latin mass,do the mass. I cannot wait but they seem to be trying to appease somebody either in the parish or in the diocese by insisting on singing these Latin songs.
Why?
Vik (**

 

[benedictgal]

Well, first of all, Latin is the official language of the Church. Its use was never abrogated as a result of the Second Vatican Council. While Mass in the vernacular is certainly allowed, the default language for the Holy Sacrifice is still Latin. That has never changed.

Second, the Agnus Dei is the Lamb of God in Latin. The Sanctus, which is the Holy, Holy, Holy in Latin, is also sung.

These prayers form part of the Church’s 2,000+ years of Tradition, as is Latin. To feel ambivlance towards them is certainly not trying very hard to return to Traditional Catholic Values.

The Holy Father, in Sacramentum Caritatis, has asked for a return to the use of Latin in the Mass. In fact, he has also urged seminaries to ensure that the young men they are training for the priesthood know Latin.

 

[Brendan]

. The page of these songs are not mentioned in the mass book and NO ONE in the parish knows the Latin in the song.Yesterday the melody of the song AD was changed but they still insist on singing the song! Why?

Because the Vatican II Council says that you are supposed to know them.

Vatican II - The Consititution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concillum)

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together, in Latin, those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

If Vatican II says that you should be able to do this, should not your parish give you chances to learn and to practice?

How else to you plan on learning this, or do you chose to reject Vatican II instead?

 

[thomasf]

Because the Vatican II Council says that you are supposed to know them.

Vatican II - The Consititution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concillum)

If Vatican II says that you should be able to do this, should not your parish give you chances to learn and to practice?

How else to you plan on learning this, or do you chose to reject Vatican II instead?

That’s the point. If people don’t know them, and there are plenty of catholics who don’t know them after almost 40 years of the NO mass, how can they sing them? We don’t have these songs in our song books either. No instruction is given, they will just add these songs in randomly without giving instruction.

 

[steboyz]

"These prayers form part of the Church’s 2,000+ years of Tradition, as is Latin. To feel ambivalence towards them is certainly not trying very hard to return to Traditional Catholic Values."Thats nice…However my point is we are not doing the Latin Mass and I feel that sing songs in English in an English mass and sing songs in Latin in a Latin mass.Also I would like to point out that being a catholic for 56 years I spent most of my Catholic grade school education attempting to recite(we never actually learned Latin)the Latin Mass to become an altar boy and after going through that experience I was very happy that the church went to English.
Now however I would like to see at least one Latin mass at our parish monthly(it won’t happen)after seeing what has happened to the Mass over the years.
Vik BTW when we did the Mass in Latin years ago at our parish we sang the hymns in English

 

[theistgal]

If you had the words and music available to you in written form, would you be OK with it? Or are you just opposed to bilingualism on general principles?

 

[steboyz]

BTW

If you would like me to change my signature so that it is not used against me LET ME KNOW.

Vik

 

[StatCrux]

I think a little bit of catechesis is necessary to understand what your priest is doing. First of all there is no such thing as an “English” or “Latin” Mass. There simply is *the *Mass which can be said in many languages. There are many forms of the Mass and of these certain ones may be said in certain languages.

The the original language of the Novus Ordo Mass (the most commonly used form of the Mass after Vatican II) is LATIN. Permission to say this particular form of the Mass in vernacular languages was given to Church so long as approved translations were used. When you hear the Mass in English, you hear the Novus Order (NO) Mass.

If you hear the Mass in Latin you could be hearing one of two forms of the Mass. The first option is just the NO Mass in its original language. The second is the Mass said during and prior to Vatican II which is commonly referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”

When permission was given to the NO Mass to be said in the vernacular, specific instructions were given to the Bishops concerning its implementation. One important instruction was that Latin should be retained in important places in the Mass. In other words, there should still be SOME Latin during English Masses. Latin is part of the living history of the Church (not to mention its many other advantages) and the faithful should not be divorced from their living heritage.

So your pastor has decided to introduce Latin back into the Mass in the form of song. This is not a bad idea. Songs are easier to memorize then just the words.

As to the songs you mention- do you happen to mean the Agnus Dei (pronounced Ag-noos Deh-ee?). This is more than a song- these are part of the words in the Mass. (Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world. Have mercy on us…). Its a common place reintroduce Latin- it’s short, repetitive, and can be sung in chant.

In conclusion, you priest is simply following the directives concerning the implementation of NO Mass in the vernacular. Admittedly, the introduction can be jarring at first. Perhaps the faithful at your parish are owed a little bit greater explanation by your priest. But rather than resist these changes, I encourage you to simply enjoy the beauty of the words. Allow the deep spirituality of the language and the song and the history lift you up towards God by drawing you deeper into the timelessness of the Mass. If you aren’t sure what you are saying then by all means, ask! You will find that speaking the language of the Church fathers is a beautiful new way to experience the Sacrifice that transcends time.

 

[StatCrux]

Just curious, what is the age of the priest who reintroduced the Latin?

 

[steboyz]

If you had the words and music available to you in written form, would you be OK with it? Or are you just opposed to bilingualism on general principles?

Well you cannot have a problem with bilingualism if you do not know the language.Yes if i knew the words I would be happier with singing however my point is just sing the songs in English at the English mass.
Vik

 

[Phemie]

**
Thats nice…However my point is we are not doing the Latin Mass and I feel that sing songs in English in an English mass and sing songs in Latin in a Latin mass.Also I would like to point out that being a catholic for 56 years I spent most of my Catholic grade school education attempting to recite(we never actually learned Latin)the Latin Mass to become an altar boy and after going through that experience I was very happy that the church went to English.
Now however I would like to see at least one Latin mass at our parish monthly(it won’t happen)after seeing what has happened to the Mass over the years.
Vik BTW when we did the Mass in Latin years ago at our parish we sang the hymns in English**

But we are to be able to sing the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin whether or not the Mass is otherwise celebrated in the vernacular.

I’m 2 years younger than you and these acclamations in Latin are as fresh in my mind today as they were back in the 60s when we heard them regularly. How can you, a former altar boy, have forgotten them? While the tune may vary the words are the same words you learned, lo those many years ago.

 

[lizaanne]

There is nothing wrong with singing Latin in an English Mass, it is done all the time.

These are not “songs” - they are sung parts of the Mass. There is nothing wrong with your parish learning these parts of the Mass in Latin. Just as no one is born with the ability to know the order and responses of the Mass in their DNA, and must learn it, this is just another new thing to learn.

You never know - an understanding of what they are doing, why they are doing it, and how, may actually enhance their spiritual life. Go figure!

~Liza

 

[theistgal]

Well you cannot have a problem with bilingualism if you do not know the language.Yes if i knew the words I would be happier with singing however my point is just sing the songs in English at the English mass.
Vik

Why? Not only is there no church law prohibiting the use of Latin (or any other language) hymns in the English Mass, but as others have pointed out, Vatican II mandates the continuing use of Latin in at least some parts of the Mass.

If you don’t know the words, just listen.

 

[thomasf]

The question is, how do you learn these songs if the church doesn’t teach them or make the words available? That’s my issue. It’s fine for the old folks who were around 50 years ago, but many of us have never heard this stuff before and are just lost.

 

[Brendan]

That’s the point. If people don’t know them, and there are plenty of catholics who don’t know them after almost 40 years of the NO mass, how can they sing them? We don’t have these songs in our song books either. No instruction is given, they will just add these songs in randomly without giving instruction.

Really, I’ve been in parishes where the music director introduces new music. After awhile, people just pick it up. That’s the great thing about setting something to music, the brain remembers it faster.

The question is, how do you learn these songs if the church doesn’t teach them or make the words available? That’s my issue. It’s fine for the old folks who were around 50 years ago, but many of us have never heard this stuff before and are just lost.

How do people learn new songs. Did you learn the lyrics to your favorite songs by being taught them, or did you pick them up as you listened to the music over the course of time?

In fact, I remember when the parish I grew up in started using the Agnus Dei. I had picked it up within 3-4 Sundays. This was back in the 80’s. I never grew up with it in Latin, but, just like hearing music on the radio, you pick up the words.

This sounds like a great way to comply with Vatican II.

 

[Cristiano]

Well you cannot have a problem with bilingualism if you do not know the language.Yes if i knew the words I would be happier with singing however my point is just sing the songs in English at the English mass.
Vik

I think that point that you miss is that there is no “English” Mass. There is the Mass where the prayers should be in Latin with added use of the vernacular when appropriate. The use of “vernacular only” is mistakenly perceived as a fundamental right. The issue is with the fact that the ordained members of the Church and the laity in charge or religious education consciously or unconsciously played this card for decades in order to gather to the community.

I am not accusing you of doing so. However, I see this kind of comment often coming from people that despise the use of Spanish in an “English” Mass because the immigrants should learn the use of English. How is that the immigrants should learn the language of the country but the faithfuls do not feel an obligation to learn the basics of the language of the Church?

Honestly, I think that you have a better attitude than a lot of other people. It sounds to me that you are still open minded to consider learning the basics if given a realistic possibility.

 

[steboyz]

Just curious, what is the age of the priest who reintroduced the Latin?

**Well I am not sure that the pastor is responsible for reintroducing the Latin.Maybe it came down from the diocese.The pastor in question I would say is younger then me (56).I guess my real problem with the songs is that the parish was not informed of the change and they expect us to just learn the words and no attempt has been made to print the words anywhere.This is the real problem with the changes.The people responsible for the changes(the diocese?) have helped lead to a deadening of singing during the mass.There appears to be an attempt to sing every song in the songbook where in the past the parish has gotten by with basically the same material or hymns sung constantly on Sunday.There are from what I understand an attempt to introduce “non catholic” hymns that has lead to a lack of singing during the Mass.
VIk **

 

[porthos11]

Well you cannot have a problem with bilingualism if you do not know the language.Yes if i knew the words I would be happier with singing however my point is just sing the songs in English at the English mass.
Vik

That’s not what the Church wants. The Church wants the changeable parts in the vernacular (i.e. English) and the non-changing parts in Latin.

As for not knowing the language, that’s just crock. I can even post some now so that there’s no excuse.

Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy).
Christe, eleison (Christ, have mercy).
Kyrie, eleison.

Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus (Holy, holy, holy)
Dominus Deus Sabaoth (Lord God of hosts [power and might]).
Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua (Heaven and earth are full of your glory)
Hosanna in excelsis (Hosanna in the highest).
Benedictus qui venit (Blessed is he who comes) in nomine Domini (in the name of the Lord).
Hosanna in excelsis.

Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) qui tollis (who takes away) peccatta mundi (the sins of the world), miserere nobis (have mercy on us).
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccatta mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccatta mundi, dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

 

[thomasf]

Really, I’ve been in parishes where the music director introduces new music. After awhile, people just pick it up. That’s the great thing about setting something to music, the brain remembers it faster.

How do people learn new songs. Did you learn the lyrics to your favorite songs by being taught them, or did you pick them up as you listened to the music over the course of time?

In fact, I remember when the parish I grew up in started using the Agnus Dei. I had picked it up within 3-4 Sundays. This was back in the 80’s. I never grew up with it in Latin, but, just like hearing music on the radio, you pick up the words.

This sounds like a great way to comply with Vatican II.

That’s great for songs in english. I don’t know latin and can’t just pick it up from hearing it sung, without the words.

We sang the lamb of God in latin yesterday. I have no idea what they were saying, because most people mumbled through it since they didn’t know the words either.

 

[Brendan]

That’s great for songs in english. I don’t know latin and can’t just pick it up from hearing it sung, without the words.

We sang the lamb of God in latin yesterday. I have no idea what they were saying, because most people mumbled through it since they didn’t know the words either.

Well Porthos was kind enough to print out the words.

Here is the music

http://www.adoremus.org/NewABart/Sanctus.jpg

And here is the common melody

adoremus.org/hymns/Sanctus.mp3

So now you are all set