Latin Thinking

[pnewton]

There has been a question on my mind I would like to throw out concerning Latin. Since I have a suspicion that we will see more Latin in the liturgy as we go through the next couple of decades, I would like to ask how much understanding there is of Latin. I am not referring to the ability to translate to English, but of actually thinking in Latin.

For example, when I hear “hocus pocus” I so not translate it in my mind, but I have an image of the word with out translating it. Similarly, for many legal phrases, like “res gestate” and habeus corpus." However, even simple phrases, like “Dominus meus et Deus meus” my mind has to translate to English to understand it. I do not think in Latin with these terms. Longer phrases, like when we said the Pater Noster in Latin, really had no significant meaning at all for me.

Many of you have had a much longer exposure. How long of a phrase can you think in Latin without translating it in your mind?

I believe this question will prove more than academic, especially if we really do introduce more and more Latin as time goes one.

 

[pnewton]

There has been a question on my mind I would like to throw out concerning Latin. Since I have a suspicion that we will see more Latin in the liturgy as we go through the next couple of decades, I would like to ask how much understanding there is of Latin. I am not referring to the ability to translate to English, but of actually thinking in Latin.

For example, when I hear “hocus pocus” I so not translate it in my mind, but I have an image of the word with out translating it. Similarly, for many legal phrases, like “res gestate” and habeus corpus." However, even simple phrases, like “Dominus meus et Deus meus” my mind has to translate to English to understand it. I do not think in Latin with these terms. Longer phrases, like when we said the Pater Noster in Latin, really had no significant meaning at all for me.

Many of you have had a much longer exposure. How long of a phrase can you think in Latin without translating it in your mind?

I believe this question will prove more than academic, especially if we really do introduce more and more Latin as time goes one.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

This is just my own personal experience. I am 51 years old, so the Latin Mass was normal for me during my early childhood. (I don’t remember exactly how old I was when we switched to the vernacular, but I was probably 6 or 7).

I think I picked up Latin by osmosis, just soaking it up as I grew up. I had my Missal with side-by-side Latin and English. (Yes, I did learn to read at an early age.) I did not “translate” per se, but I did read along, sometimes in English, sometimes in Latin. I did not know the meaning of every word, but I did know where we were in the Mass — the Offertory, the Consecration, etc. Eventually I began to recognize the meanings of some Latin words, either because they sounded similar to English words or because of the patterns I discovered (for example, when I saw “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus” across the page from “Holy, holy, holy,” I figured out from the threefold repetition that “sanctus” means “holy.”) The readings (Epistle, Gospel) were always repeated in English, and the homily was in English, so we were always fed the word of God in language we could understand.

I have never formally studied Latin — not even one semester. I sang in choirs most of my teen and adult life, and was exposed to a lot of Latin choral works, so I suppose that has made me familiar with the Latin words of the Gloria, Ave Verum, etc. So now I probably know a little less Latin than a toddler during the Roman Empire!

In answer to your question on how much translating we will do, I think every person learns language a little differently, and that will vary from person to person. It may also depend on how old you are when you start. Children pick up languages more easily than adults, so little ones might have less trouble than those of us who are set in our ways. It may take another generation or two to sort itself out.

Anyways, when attending Mass we don’t really have to know what every word means, as long as we enter into the mystery of what is happening. We hear the word of God, we profess our faith, we offer gifts, we witness Jesus Himself coming down upon the altar, we feed on His Body and Blood.

I have attended a few Latin Masses lately, and at first I tried to read along (back and forth in both languages), but I find now that I get more out of it if I just generally follow along enough to know where we are in the Mass and make the necessary responses.

I think the biggest problem is that almost two generations of people have grown up without any Latin at all. It was never supposed to have been completely discarded; the Church permitted us to use the vernacular in certain parts of the Mass where it would be most helpful to understanding, but we should have kept some of the common prayers (Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc.) in Latin. Then we would all have something in common with Catholics worldwide (and with the saints in heaven who prayed in Latin while they were on earth!). Just think, you could travel anywhere in the world and share a common liturgical language with your brothers and sisters in Christ everywhere. There would be no need for parishes to multiply Masses in English, Spanish, Polish, etc., as we would all share a common language.

Don’t get me wrong, I do love the Mass in English, too. But I think we lost something beautiful in throwing Latin out with the trash.

 

[Chatter163]

There has been a question on my mind I would like to throw out concerning Latin. Since I have a suspicion that we will see more Latin in the liturgy as we go through the next couple of decades…

“Suspicion”? Not a belief, an expectation, expectation or even an inkling, but a “suspicion”? Is something dastardly about to occur? :ehh:

 

[Cathryn]

There has been a question on my mind I would like to throw out concerning Latin. Since I have a suspicion that we will see more Latin in the liturgy as we go through the next couple of decades, I would like to ask how much understanding there is of Latin. I am not referring to the ability to translate to English, but of actually thinking in Latin.

**For example, when I hear “hocus pocus” I so not translate it in my mind, but I have an image of the word with out translating it. **Similarly, for many legal phrases, like “res gestate” and habeus corpus." However, even simple phrases, like “Dominus meus et Deus meus” my mind has to translate to English to understand it. I do not think in Latin with these terms. Longer phrases, like when we said the Pater Noster in Latin, really had no significant meaning at all for me.

Many of you have had a much longer exposure. How long of a phrase can you think in Latin without translating it in your mind?

I believe this question will prove more than academic, especially if we really do introduce more and more Latin as time goes one.

Your example of “hocus pocus” isn’t Latin or Catholic. I hope the image you have in your mind isn’t anything Catholic. The image I have is of a witch stirring a cauldron, repeating made up magic words.

Did you mean?
"Hoc est enim Corpus meum", “For this is my Body”
Sometimes people mock Catholics by using the words “hocus pocus” for what the priest says at the Consecration.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, ever since Pope Benedict became our Supreme Pontiff, I have made it a point to learn the prayers of the Mass in Latin. This has really served to help me because, often, reciting the prayers in English during the Mass tends to get me into automatic pilot. Reciting the prayers in Latin makes me concentrate on the words and, it also helps me to realize just how inadequate the current translation of the Roman Missal is.

I’ve even learned how to pray some of the rosary in Latin. It helps if I can pray along with Vatican Radio, where the rosary is recited in Latin every day at 1PM (CST). It’s rather embarassing that a small child can say the words rather clearly in Latin and I’m still struggling. But, it does help me to concentrate.

Furthermore, having had two years of Italian in high school definitely helps (along with four years of Spanish). There are many words that are similar in these languages to their Latin roots.

I find that Latin is a very beautiful language. We are in so very need of beauty in the Mass. Latin gives us that beauty and, it is something very much out of the ordinary.

 

[Cathryn]

There has been a question on my mind I would like to throw out concerning Latin. Since I have a suspicion that we will see more Latin in the liturgy as we go through the next couple of decades, I would like to ask how much understanding there is of Latin. I am not referring to the ability to translate to English, but of actually thinking in Latin.

**For example, when I hear “hocus pocus” I so not translate it in my mind, but I have an image of the word with out translating it. **Similarly, for many legal phrases, like “res gestate” and habeus corpus." However, even simple phrases, like “Dominus meus et Deus meus” my mind has to translate to English to understand it. I do not think in Latin with these terms. Longer phrases, like when we said the Pater Noster in Latin, really had no significant meaning at all for me.

Many of you have had a much longer exposure. How long of a phrase can you think in Latin without translating it in your mind?

I believe this question will prove more than academic, especially if we really do introduce more and more Latin as time goes one.

I hope this isn’t a double post but my previous post disappeared.
Your example of “hocus pocus” isn’t Latin. I hope the image you have in your mind isn’t anything Catholic. The image I have is of a witch stirring a cauldron, repeating made up magic words.

Did you mean?

“Hoc est enim Corpus meum”, “For this is my Body”

 

[Joannm]

I hope this isn’t a double post but my previous post disappeared.
Your example of “hocus pocus” isn’t Latin. I hope the image you have in your mind isn’t anything Catholic. The image I have is of a witch stirring a cauldron, repeating made up magic words.

Did you mean?

“Hoc est enim Corpus meum”, “For this is my Body”

The term “hocus pocus” actually comes from “hoc est enim Corpus…” It was coined by those who believed the Catholics were doing magic in consecrating the bread and wine.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Although I am fairly fluent in reading Spanish, I have to do the translation thing when listening to spoken Spanish much less trying to speak it.

Do I think in Latin? No. Do I have to translate the Latin? No. I do not need a prompt to be able to pray the Pater Noster in Latin, Ave Marie, Creed, Gloria, Requiem, etc. The issue of “cognates” that is words that sound and mean the same thing in different languages is a definite help. So I have both Spanish and English to fall back on. Plus years and years of serving as an altar boy before and just after V II.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Trying this reminds me of the Kipling story about the guy who watched a fakir stirring a pot of mud, then eventually the fakir reached into the mud brew and withdrew a nugget of gold.

When the watcher asked the fakir how he made gold out of mud, the fakir responded that all he had to do was get a pot, some water and some dirt, stir slowly but thoroughly, then reach into the pot and he would find a nugget there. That seemed simple enough, but then the fakir added “And whatever you do, don’t think of brown monkeys at any time while you do it, or it won’t work.”

But I’m told that when I was in college studying French, I sometimes spoke French in my sleep. Does that count?

 

[brotherhrolf]

No. My younger brother got smashed at a Christmas party one Christmas Eve and stumbled into the house muttering Spanish. My mother was not a happy camper nor did I tell her what he was saying.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

I hope this isn’t a double post but my previous post disappeared.

Yes, this is a duplicate thread. Is there any way they can be merged?

 

[puzzleannie]

Many of you have had a much longer exposure. How long of a phrase can you think in Latin without translating it in your mind?

I believe this question will prove more than academic, especially if we really do introduce more and more Latin as time goes one.

or if you happen to be attending a Latin Mass you can do the same thing you would if you happened to attend Mass in Spanish or French, read along in your native language in the missal. none problem, none discussion

 

[pnewton]

I hope this isn’t a double post but my previous post disappeared.
Your example of “hocus pocus” isn’t Latin. I hope the image you have in your mind isn’t anything Catholic. The image I have is of a witch stirring a cauldron, repeating made up magic words.

Did you mean?

“Hoc est enim Corpus meum”, “For this is my Body”

Fair enough. I knew it was a bad example. I was just trying to find something. By the way, I am truly sorry about the double post. I got glitched on my computer.

 

[pnewton]

“Suspicion”? Not a belief, an expectation, expectation or even an inkling, but a “suspicion”? Is something dastardly about to occur? :ehh:

Just a phrase. I have no agenda other that I like to be prepared. I my priest comes in and says we have to start doing such and such, I like to be able to tell him I am all over it and in fact am all prepared to start immediately.

 

[pnewton]

or if you happen to be attending a Latin Mass you can do the same thing you would if you happened to attend Mass in Spanish or French, read along in your native language in the missal. none problem, none discussion

I do read along. In fact, the idea of having the priest speak Latin doesn’t give many any pause, for I can read along in that part, even though it will take longer to learn the Latin if I do. Having done something similar in Spanish, I tend to phase out all that is being said in Spanish and just read the missalette.