Latin Vestments

[Harpazo]

What have the episcopal, sacerdotal, and diaconal vestments looked like for the Latin Church over the centuries? It seems like some have been close to the Byzantine style with the cope. Please bear with me as I do not know all the terms for the vestments.

The contemporary vestments of the NO Rite in the Latin Church look terribly plain and in my opinion do not do justice to reflect the role of the Priest. Would anyone have pictures of what these vestments looked like over the centuries, possibly pre-Trent. Did Readers and Cantors have their own vestments as they do in the Eastern Churches?

Thanks in advance!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[VivatJesus]

Did Readers and Cantors have their own vestments as they do in the Eastern Churches?

Thanks in advance!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

Deacons and Sub-Deacons had their own vestments, called a “dalmatic”…acolytes, cantors, etc. I think wore cassock and surplice.

 

[JuanCarlos]

The Eastern phelonion looks very similar to the cope, but they function quite differently.

The traditional style of the Latin chasuble is called the “Fiddleback”; they are stiffer and usually more ornate than the typical modern chasuble (which is oftentimes indistinguishable in material from a surplice!).

 

[Spiller]

What have the episcopal, sacerdotal, and diaconal vestments looked like for the Latin Church over the centuries? It seems like some have been close to the Byzantine style with the cope. Please bear with me as I do not know all the terms for the vestments.

The contemporary vestments of the NO Rite in the Latin Church look terribly plain and in my opinion do not do justice to reflect the role of the Priest. Would anyone have pictures of what these vestments looked like over the centuries, possibly pre-Trent. Did Readers and Cantors have their own vestments as they do in the Eastern Churches?

Thanks in advance!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

The Greek/Gothic-style of vestments most commonly used in the OF are not only older than the Roman vestments, they are also far better looking.

Go back far enough and priests had to be told to stop procuring the Greek/Gothic-style of vestments in favor of the lingerie albs and the bulletproof vest chasubles.

 

[JuanCarlos]

This answers the original question.

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2006/07/on-origin-and-development-of-vestments.html

 

[ethelzguy]

The contemporary vestments of the NO Rite in the Latin Church look terribly plain and in my opinion do not do justice to reflect the role of the Priest.

Is it ever possible, for the tradtionalist crowd to discuss ANYTHING without taking swipes at the Church, post-Vatican II?

 

[Harpazo]

Is it ever possible, for the tradtionalist crowd to discuss ANYTHING without taking swipes at the Church, post-Vatican II?

Call me what you like, but I’m not a Latin Catholic. I didn’t blame V2, did I? I’m sorry if my post led to that assumption. It’s just that the simplicity is largely responsible for the liberalness that happened with the liturgy in the Latin Church.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[ethelzguy]

Call me what you like, but I’m not a Latin Catholic. I didn’t blame V2, did I? I’m sorry if my post led to that assumption. It’s just that the simplicity is largely responsible for the liberalness that happened with the liturgy in the Latin Church.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

How does “simplicity” become “largely responsible for liberalness”? In any aspect of life?

 

[JuanCarlos]

The Liturgical movement that in reality had its origins in the early 50’s was founded on the principle of simplifying everything- the Liturgy, the calender, the vestments, the Divine Office, etc. Hence the calender purge of the late 50’s, the 1955 Holy Week, the Mass of 1965 (which was basically a simplified TLM), and finally the contemporary Ordinary Form.

 

[Spiller]

Call me what you like, but I’m not a Latin Catholic. I didn’t blame V2, did I? I’m sorry if my post led to that assumption. It’s just that the simplicity is largely responsible for the liberalness that happened with the liturgy in the Latin Church.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

That still doesn’t give you license to attack what you term the “NO Rite in the Latin Church.” Don’t be surprised if people dismiss your remarks due to such comments.

What tradition of the Byzantine Rite are you? I attend a Byzantine parish each week and I have never heard such crude comments from my brothers and sisters there…

 

[ethelzguy]

The Liturgical movement that in reality had its origins in the early 50’s was founded on the principle of simplifying everything- the Liturgy, the calender, the vestments, the Divine Office, etc. Hence the calender purge of the late 50’s, the 1955 Holy Week, the Mass of 1965 (which was basically a simplified TLM), and finally the contemporary Ordinary Form.

How did “simplification” bring us a three-year lectionary cycle as opposed to the one-year cycle?

 

[Spiller]

This answers the original question.

thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2006/07/on-origin-and-development-of-vestments.html

I wouldn’t consider that a site I would trust.

 

[Spiller]

How did “simplification” bring us a three-year lectionary cycle as opposed to the one-year cycle?

You know it’s remarkable to see some “Traditional Catholics” try to defend those things that are clearly inferior with the EF.

Just imagine if the single year Lectionary cyclewere a product of VC2. Just imagine how it would be SLAMMED by some “Traditional Catholics” today.

Just imagine if the fiddlebacks and maniples were a product of VC2. Just imagine how they would be SLAMMED by some “Traditional Catholics” today.

I actually find it amusing when they try to defend the indefensible…

 

[nannygirl]

The Greek/Gothic-style of vestments most commonly used in the OF are not only older than the Roman vestments, they are also far better looking.

Go back far enough and priests had to be told to stop procuring the Greek/Gothic-style of vestments in favor of the lingerie albs and the bulletproof vest chasubles.

So you don’t consider this a “swipe”? Who is being rude?

 

[JuanCarlos]

I invite you to compare the Masses of 1962, '65, and '69 in order to better acquaint you with what I meant by “simplification”.

the-pope.com/missals.html

coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

If you are not inclined to look I will run off what was simplified in that time period:

-Elimination of the prayers before the altar (began in '65 with the elmination of “Judica me”; foreshadowed in the Holy Week of 1955’s suppression of the same)

-Elimination of the third and second confiteor ('62 and '69)

-Confiteor may be replaced by the Kyrie ('69)

-Reduction of the kyriale from 9 invocations to 6

-elimination of the last gospel ('65)

-Elimination of the prayers after Mass ('65)

-Elimination of kneeling during the Creed except in Holy Week ('69)

-Reduction of Octaves to 2-3 (can’t recall but was in the 50’s)

-Reduction of the Lavabo

-Eucharistic prayer II, most commonly used of all Eucharistic prayers, which eliminates

1. Commemoration of the living
2. Communicantes
3. Hanc Igitur
4. Reduces the prayers for the priest’s communion

-Reduction of fasting days to two

-Meat is only forbidden on Fridays of Lent

etc etc etc etc etc

Regarding the three year cycle- I am not closed minded. I will admit even with my apathy towards the NO it does win in terms of exposure to the scripture.

 

[VivatJesus]

Is it ever possible, for the tradtionalist crowd to discuss ANYTHING without taking swipes at the Church, post-Vatican II?

Umm…no, because Vatican II and its consequences are the source of the current CRISIS in the Church.

 

[Harpazo]

That still doesn’t give you license to attack what you term the “NO Rite in the Latin Church.” Don’t be surprised if people dismiss your remarks due to such comments.

What tradition of the Byzantine Rite are you? I attend a Byzantine parish each week and I have never heard such crude comments from my brothers and sisters there…

I was not attacking at all, but you are free to think as you wish. I’m sorry you misinterpreted what I said.

I merely mentioned that the vestments in the NO Rite are generally over-simplistic and not fitting to the office of Priest. As I said in another post, the purpose of the Liturgy is to bring us out of our present state and into Heaven. Again, I stated that it was my opinion.

Because I am not a Latin Catholic, does not mean that I am Byzantine. I am not Latin, yet I am attending a Maronite Church and in the procession of filing a change in canonical enrollment.

Again, no disrespect was intended at all. The priest serves one of the highest and respectable roles in society, and should be honored as such. Who else can turn bread and wine into Jesus Christ?

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Auntie_M]

I was not attacking at all, but you are free to think as you wish. I’m sorry you misinterpreted what I said.

I merely mentioned that the vestments in the NO Rite are generally over-simplistic and not fitting to the office of Priest. As I said in another post, the purpose of the Liturgy is to bring us out of our present state and into Heaven. Again, I stated that it was my opinion.

Because I am not a Latin Catholic, does not mean that I am Byzantine. I am not Latin, yet I am attending a Maronite Church and in the procession of filing a change in canonical enrollment.

Again, no disrespect was intended at all. The priest serves one of the highest and respectable roles in society, and should be honored as such. Who else can turn bread and wine into Jesus Christ?

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

You know, it really seems to me that the ones wanting the Latin Mass so much really NEED those extra visuals to “feel” religious.
It is such a shame that we have gotten so far from God that we have to have something to “see” and “feel”. Faith alone has fallen by the wayside.

With my highlighting. this was one of the main points about the Latin Mass. That the priests NOT be glorified, That it is God who we go to worship and honor and with the priest “facing” the crowds that was not possible. We were NOT to be there for the priest. i think I am getting really confused…

 

[Harpazo]

You know, it really seems to me that the ones wanting the Latin Mass so much really NEED those extra visuals to “feel” religious.
It is such a shame that we have gotten so far from God that we have to have something to “see” and “feel”. Faith alone has fallen by the wayside.

I think you misunderstand. Those “visuals” as you seem to minimize them, are for the greater glory of God. For some reason or another, the faith and liturgy have been minimalized in the Latin Church. Everything, the architecture, prayers, vestments are for the greater glory of God. He deserves the best, who are we to hold that back from Him?

Faith alone has never been adopted, seeing as it is incompatible with Catholic orthodoxy. Besides, the Latin Church does have the Latin Mass. Seeing as I am not a Latin Catholic I don’t have much care for it. I was simply interested in seeing the vestments and how they were in the past centuries.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Spiller]

I was not attacking at all, but you are free to think as you wish. I’m sorry you misinterpreted what I said.

I am sorry you lack the humility to apologize for making untrue comments.

I merely mentioned that the vestments in the NO Rite are generally over-simplistic and not fitting to the office of Priest. As I said in another post, the purpose of the Liturgy is to bring us out of our present state and into Heaven. Again, I stated that it was my opinion.

Your comments were untrue and crude:

“The contemporary vestments of the NO Rite in the Latin Church look terribly plain and in my opinion do not do justice to reflect the role of the Priest.”

Because I am not a Latin Catholic, does not mean that I am Byzantine. I am not Latin, yet I am attending a Maronite Church and in the procession of filing a change in canonical enrollment.

Your were commenting on Byzantine vestments…

Again, no disrespect was intended at all. The priest serves one of the highest and respectable roles in society, and should be honored as such. Who else can turn bread and wine into Jesus Christ?

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

Now you compound your comments with another untruth? C’mon…