Latin Vestments

[JKirkLVNV]

And it’s clear from a side-by-side reading that the Novus Ordo is a banal, pedestrian liturgy that underminesCatholic belief in the ordained priesthood, true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, and sacrificial character of the Mass. It’s also clear that people who are instructed in the old Mass tend to believe in the Real Presence, whereas 3/4 of people who attend the Novus liturgy do not. Do you have a problem with repetition? Do you find the Holy Rosary to be “copiously wordy, with much repetition” as well?

Nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing lacking in the conveyance of Catholic doctrine in the OF, neither is it pedestrian. Pope Benedict, in the MP, has great hopes for the OF and it is a treasure of the faith. I’ve yet to meet a Catholic who does not believe in the Real Presence. You really do kick against the goad, Vivat. If you really love the EF, you should simply stop speaking. You’re doing it far more harm than good.

 

[VivatJesus]

You might also ponder this, Vivat. **The arrogance, the sheer conceit of a great many “traditionalists,” might well put a great number of people off the EF who might well have been more open to it, might have the effect of “well, if those people are representative of what the EF produces, then thank you, but no.” I, more often than not, mark it down to the arrogance of youth, which life itself will take care of in due course. ** If the Lord God mean the EF to persist or even dominate, then it will. You and I, having no window into His Mind, would do well not to hinder by our arrogance whatever it is that He intends, but would do well to wait upon His Church, our only reference TO Him.

You guys should listen to yourselves…I’ve never witnessed as much arrogance from traditionalists as I have from “totally obedient” :bowdown2: [blind, false obedience, that is] NeoCatholics on this forum. What really seems arrogant to me is that, to justify the post-Vatican II innovations and novelties, you must by necessity think that you know better than the theologians, doctors, saints, and popes who lived centuries before you. THAT is arrogance.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You guys should listen to yourselves…I’ve never witnessed as much arrogance from traditionalists as I have from “totally obedient” :bowdown2: [blind, false obedience, that is] NeoCatholics on this forum. What really seems arrogant to me is that, to justify the post-Vatican II innovations and novelties, you must by necessity think that you know better than the theologians, doctors, saints, and popes who lived centuries before you. THAT is arrogance.

I have, up to now, not spoken in any way that could be construed as disrespectful or arrogant. You have heaped nothing, but abuse on the Church and on a legitimate form of the Mass. Blind and false obedience? On one hand, we have the Vicar of Christ on Earth, on the other, a twenty-two year old who simply engages in vitrolic and disrespectful verbiage. I should think the choice would be obvious.

You really should be ashamed.

 

[VivatJesus]

I have, up to now, not spoken in any way that could be construed as disrespectful or arrogant. You have heaped nothing, but abuse on the Church and on a legitimate form of the Mass. Blind and false obedience? On one hand, we have the Vicar of Christ on Earth, on the other, a twenty-two year old who simply engages in vitrolic and disrespectful verbiage. I should think the choice would be obvious.

You really should be ashamed.

Actually, I LOVE the Church; I just don’t make the mistake of equating the nonsense of the last 40 years with the 2,000 year old Catholic Church…and yes, I do have a problem with the Novus Ordo since it is not a legitimate form of the Mass but a radical departure from Catholic teaching and tradition.

By the way, I think it’s ironic how you try to discredit everything I say simply because of my age. The “Vicar of Christ” your worship seems to think very highly of 22-year olds (hence World Youth Day). Then again, I guess NeoCatholics only take 20-somethings seriously if they’re rolling around in the mud, sleeping with the opposite sex in tents, and swaying to pop-and-rock music at huge outdoor events.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Actually, I LOVE the Church; I just don’t make the mistake of equating the nonsense of the last 40 years with the 2,000 year old Catholic Church…and yes, I do have a problem with the Novus Ordo since it is not a legitimate form of the Mass but a radical departure from Catholic teaching and tradition.

Again, so says someone barely beginning their adulthood. The Vicar of Christ on Earth seems to think differently. Also, much of what you treasure is hardly 2,000 years old. The liturgy has always grown and developed.

I think that to deny that the OF is a legitimate form of the Mass is heresy, if you saying that it fails to confect the Holy Sacrifice. The OF affirms every teaching that the EF affirms AND we know precisely where we are in it at all times, ie, the choir ISN’T singing the Sanctus while the priest is saying the consecration. We don’t have to wait on the bells to know where he is. If we’re going to go into the differences, I think most of the Church, if polled, would call that a distinct improvement.

 

[VivatJesus]

Again, so says someone barely beginning their adulthood. The Vicar of Christ on Earth seems to think differently. Also, much of what you treasure is hardly 2,000 years old. The liturgy has always grown and developed.

I think that to deny that the OF is a legitimate form of the Mass is heresy, if you saying that it fails to confect the Holy Sacrifice. The OF affirms every teaching that the EF affirms AND we know precisely where we are in it at all times, ie, the choir ISN’T singing the Sanctus while the priest is saying the consecration. We don’t have to wait on the bells to know where he is. If we’re going to go into the differences, I think most of the Church, if polled, would call that a distinct improvement.

Well, the current Vicar of Christ might seem to think so…but the Vicar of Christ which John XXIII succeded had a radically different opinion. The Novus Ordo is a “striking departure” (said Cardinal Ottiavani). It isn’t a development or growth of the traditional Mass anymore than Luther and Cranmer’s new liturgies were legitimate developments of the Latin Mass. It is a completely new rite.
Satanic Black Masses can also validly confect the Eucharist…does that make it “legitimate”? Your arguments, as always, are painfully simplistic.

 

[VivatJesus]

Again, so says someone barely beginning their adulthood. The Vicar of Christ on Earth seems to think differently. Also, much of what you treasure is hardly 2,000 years old. The liturgy has always grown and developed.

Umm, so said CARDINAL Ottiavani back in 1969 before the Novus liturgy was even promulgated! I’ll take his word over some middle-aged babyboomer pounding his keyboard out in Las Vegas, Nevada.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JKirkLVNV;3881426:

Again, so says someone barely

beginning their adulthood. The Vicar of Christ on Earth seems to think differently. Also, much of what you treasure is hardly 2,000 years old. The liturgy has always grown and developed.

Umm, so said CARDINAL Ottiavani back in 1969 before the Novus liturgy was even promulgated! I’ll take his word over some middle-aged babyboomer pounding his keyboard out in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Um, read all of what His Eminence said…but of course, you probably believe in the great conspiracy.

I guess the point I would make is that we’ll see if your arrogance persists when you’re the same age as this middle-aged baby boomer. If you live, life will teach you a degree of humility.

 

[Spiller]

Actually, I LOVE the Church; I just don’t make the mistake of equating the nonsense of the last 40 years with the 2,000 year old Catholic Church…and yes, I do have a problem with the Novus Ordo since it is not a legitimate form of the Mass but a radical departure from Catholic teaching and tradition.

By the way, I think it’s ironic how you try to discredit everything I say simply because of my age. The “Vicar of Christ” your worship seems to think very highly of 22-year olds (hence World Youth Day). Then again, I guess NeoCatholics only take 20-somethings seriously if they’re rolling around in the mud, sleeping with the opposite sex in tents, and swaying to pop-and-rock music at huge outdoor events.

Simply put, that’s not only untrue, it’s also not your call…

 

[Spiller]

You guys should listen to yourselves…I’ve never witnessed as much arrogance from traditionalists as I have from “totally obedient” :bowdown2: [blind, false obedience, that is] NeoCatholics on this forum. What really seems arrogant to me is that, to justify the post-Vatican II innovations and novelties, you must by necessity think that you know better than the theologians, doctors, saints, and popes who lived centuries before you. THAT is arrogance.

Kettle/pot/black…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, the current Vicar of Christ might seem to think so…but the Vicar of Christ which John XXIII succeded had a radically different opinion. The Novus Ordo is a “striking departure” (said Cardinal Ottiavani). It isn’t a development or growth of the traditional Mass anymore than Luther and Cranmer’s new liturgies were legitimate developments of the Latin Mass. It is a completely new rite.
Satanic Black Masses can also validly confect the Eucharist…does that make it “legitimate”? Your arguments, as always, are painfully simplistic.

You’re being arrogant YET again, not to mention simplistic yourself. You said it was not a legitimate form of the Mass. The Black Mass is NOT in intent what the Church proposes to the faithful, but the OF IS. That is to say, it is intended for the proper and ordered worship of God and it is intended to confect the Holy Sacrifice FOR the propitation of our sins. Neither the Cranmer Mass nor the Lutheran ceremony were intended to DO that (as they deny it), though both of those have their roots in the liturgies of the Church prior to their usurpation of those antecedants. Are you saying that the OF, validly promulgated by the Vicar of Christ, does NOT do what it is intended to do, ie, propitiate for sin? That is the whole purpose of a legititmate Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Simply put, that’s not only untrue, it’s also not your call…

Odd, isn’t it, how radically democratic, how downright congregationalist some of these “traditionalists” are?

 

[Spiller]

If you’re talking about the woeful polyester ponchos some priests wear, then I would agree. They’re just plain bad and I’m glad Pope Benedict has set an example with richer chasubles. Some changes have been, however, to the good. The alb made of substantial material rather than that frothy, effeminate cloth that looks like a negligee from Victoria’s Secret is a definite improvement, IMHO. If we’re doing it for God, as we should be, then the question that pops into my mind is “How much lace does the Lord require a man to wear?” The nearly fanatical insistence on the Roman chasuble (which Spiller has noted elsewhere looks like a bullet proof vest and which I always thought of as a Dairy Queen apron) by some “traditionalists” is misplaced and a proof of their poor reading of liturgical history (what we call the Gothic chasuble is actually more “traditional”). The priest changing from the cope to the chasuble is a distraction, as is the constant doffing of the beretta (albeit done at the Name of Jesus), which doesn’t even match the other vestments. If a priest wants to wear a beretta with his cassock, fine, but I’m glad they’ve generally come to be left out of liturgical use.

As for “minimalization,” our differing opinions (you as an Eastern Rite Christian, I as a Latin) probably are simply true to our nature. I’ve attended a Divine Liturgy at a sub juris church and I find I much prefer the relatively austere offering of the Holy Sacrifice as is done by my own rite. I don’t find it less worthy, but then I’m a “less is more” kind of person. I WOULD agree that it all needs to be the best we can offer and the OF has had some terrible abuses heaped on it, but I disagree that a mulitplication of gestures and a few more yards of lace are going to either fix it or be more pleasing to the Holy One.

I used to really look down on such vesture, but no longer. I know a priest who perspires a great deal when he celebrates the Mass. By the time he has celebrated his last Mass on Sunday, I am sure at least two of his albs and one of his chasubles are ready for the laundry. It would make little sense for him to wear an even warmer $2,000.00 chasuble that would need to be dry cleaned each week it was in use.

 

[ethelzguy]

Classic youthful rebellion. They read a few documents, and then declare themselves as experts on the Faith. Such vigorous anger, and so much energy.

But, with age comes wisdom.

Sometimes we have to let our children find things out the hard way.

 

[ethelzguy]

I used to really look down on such vesture, but no longer. I know a priest who perspires a great deal when he celebrates the Mass. By the time he has celebrated his last Mass on Sunday, I am sure at least two of his albs and one of his chasubles are ready for the laundry. It would make little sense for him to wear an even warmer $2,000.00 chasuble that would need to be dry cleaned each week it was in use.

I am aware of a number of parishes in my region, that have installed auxillary air conditioning systems for the altars, due to the “personal” heat generated by vestments. Two that I am aware of are capable of heating the pews while air conditioning the altar simultaneously.

 

[Spiller]

Odd, isn’t it, how radically democratic, how downright congregationalist some of these “traditionalists” are?

Only when it serves to promote their notion of what is “best” or “better.” I think that’s why so many of them lack credibility – they carp about “abuses” yet they are they first to differ from the Church when it suits their own personal agendas.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I used to really look down on such vesture, but no longer. I know a priest who perspires a great deal when he celebrates the Mass. By the time he has celebrated his last Mass on Sunday, I am sure at least two of his albs and one of his chasubles are ready for the laundry. It would make little sense for him to wear an even warmer $2,000.00 chasuble that would need to be dry cleaned each week it was in use.

I don’t know how old you are, Spiller, but do you remember polyester leisure suits? That’s the polyester I’m talking about. There ARE lighter man-made fabrics that can look beautiful, but I’m still seeing polyester tents made of the same nasty stuff as my leisure suit that I wore when I graduated 8th grade. You don’t want to see the pictures.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Classic youthful rebellion. They read a few documents, and then declare themselves as experts on the Faith. Such vigorous anger, and so much energy.

But, with age comes wisdom.

Sometimes we have to let our children find things out the hard way.

To be that young again, to be that certain, to still have my hair.

 

[Harpazo]

Only when it serves to promote their notion of what is “best” or “better.” I think that’s why so many of them lack credibility – they carp about “abuses” yet they are they first to differ from the Church when it suits their own personal agendas.

I would appreciate it if you and others would cease from derailing this thread. Is it so hard to have a simple discussion about Latin vestments without people getting their panties in a bunch. Please take your bickering to another thread.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Spiller]

I am aware of a number of parishes in my region, that have installed auxillary air conditioning systems for the altars, due to the “personal” heat generated by vestments. Two that I am aware of are capable of heating the pews while air conditioning the altar simultaneously.

We live in a very mild climate and he has his own fan in the sanctuary. I think his perspiration is largely a product of how serious he takes the Mass…