Latin vs vernacular mass

[alforo]

Of the many questions and comments offered on the Catholic Answers Forums, there is one question that I believe has not been adequately addressed and has caused me some confusion.

My question is: There seems to be an often expressed declaration by many who remember the Latin Mass that they were perplexed or uncomfortable or uneasy because they did not understand it. However, we know that there is an ever increasing segment of the present day population that, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer the Latin Mass. Is this because they understand Latin or are they, too, attending a mass that they do not understand? That would make no sense. Yet look at how tenaciously they adhere to it. Can someone iron this out for me?

 

[Trishie]

When we had the Latin Mass before Vatican 2, the missals had both Latin and English (or the appropriate vernacular) so that though the Mass was in Latin, it was easy to follow…the original Mass. I’m mindful that the first Mass, the Last Supper, was said in the vernacular…Jesus’ own language was Aramaic…it would be moving to have the Mass offered in Aramaic!

 

[centurionguard]

Of the many questions and comments offered on the Catholic Answers Forums, there is one question that I believe has not been adequately addressed and has caused me some confusion.

My question is: There seems to be an often expressed declaration by many who remember the Latin Mass that they were perplexed or uncomfortable or uneasy because they did not understand it. However, we know that there is an ever increasing segment of the present day population that, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer the Latin Mass. Is this because they understand Latin or are they, too, attending a mass that they do not understand? That would make no sense. Yet look at how tenaciously they adhere to it. Can someone iron this out for me?

Just my (name removed by moderator)ut for what its worth, but I would say that many of the faithful today are taking a stronger interest in the traditions of the Catholic Church before Vatican II for several reasons. One being educational. The other being those growing up in their childhood before Vatican II came about and having themselves gone to Church on Sundays with their parents. Many of whom have witnessed the many changes in successional reformed liturgy and the tide of liberal liturgical abuses with many Catholics deciding to change to the former Traditional Latin Mass. The reasons I list above only touch the iceberg surface of motives why a growing number of Catholics prefer the T.L.M. For me looking at the Novus Ordo Mass in these last 45 years in comparison to the T.L.M., I see the Novus Ordo Mass still in its infancy hopefully evolving into something better more closer to the T.L.M. but still maintaining its vernacular significance with a far better translation. I think you’ll find many devote Catholics who are divided over which Mass is their preference.

 

[JRKH]

Of the many questions and comments offered on the Catholic Answers Forums, there is one question that I believe has not been adequately addressed and has caused me some confusion.

My question is: There seems to be an often expressed declaration by many who remember the Latin Mass that they were perplexed or uncomfortable or uneasy because they did not understand it. However, we know that there is an ever increasing segment of the present day population that, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer the Latin Mass. Is this because they understand Latin or are they, too, attending a mass that they do not understand? That would make no sense. Yet look at how tenaciously they adhere to it. Can someone iron this out for me?

Well lets get out the “Iron” and see. But be advised, there are a lot of “pleats” in this.

First of all let me address the “understanding Latin” aspect. Because this is nothing but a “red herring”
NO ONE (except the blind and illiterate) who wishes to follow along with the EF mass should have any problem, whether they understand Latin or not. EF parishes today have "missalettes’ with the english and Latin side by side. In the “Olden days”, most every Missal was printed this way. Latin on one side and egnlish on the other side of the page.

There can be many reasons one is drawn to the EF. Mostly I think it is because of the abuses seen in the OF over the years. Because of these abuses, those seeking a truly more spiritual and reverent experience are attracted to the EF. Thus the whole experience is more fulfilling.
The EF is also more “contemplative”, but also more particapative in nature. Because the mass is in Latin, one must read along in their missal. This both “quiets” and internalizes" the experience while at the same time requires a higher degree of awareness and concentration. This is because one must engage more part of the brain to “see”, to “read”, to “watch”, and to “listen”, thus hightening the experience both internally and externally. In the OF, one can just “sit and listen” - Sort of like watching TV - and respond at the right times without really absorbing what is going on.
Of course, I’m not saying everyone at an OF is like this. I am just trying to answer you r question about what is attractive in the EF. One can also just sit in the EF and not follow along, but again, those attracted to the EF are not likely to be this way. Likewise those attending the OF can be completely fulfilled and participate deeply in the liturgy.
(See what I mean about pleats?)
Another attraction is the music. Modern songs seem to lack something that the older music has.

In closing let me say that if the OF had not been abused over the years, if it had been celebrated as it should be, correctly and reverently, then the great interest in the EF might not have taken off as it has. Thankfully the Holy Father - in His wisdom - has given us the EF back as a fully legitimate form of the Mass. This provides a counterbalance to the horribly liberalized OF’s that infect some diocese’.

Did I miss anything?

Peace
James

 

[phrederik]

i prefer the Mass, and any other liturgy, said in the vernacular. my parish had Benediction this past sunday and when the Host was reposed a hymn was sung in latin. and while the english was there for me to follow along i found doing this to be distracting, my attention was not on the moment. i believe many of the latin proponents are the last gasp of those who recall the pre-vatican II Mass who don’t want to see it fade away. and i have to wonder, what was the mood and attitude long ago in churchs when the their Mass went from the vernacular to latin

 

[JRKH]

i prefer the Mass, and any other liturgy, said in the vernacular. my parish had Benediction this past sunday and when the Host was reposed a hymn was sung in latin. and while the english was there for me to follow along i found doing this to be distracting, my attention was not on the moment.

That is simply because it was something different and unexpected. If this same hymn were to by used at each benediction you would become use to it and it would no longer be “distracting”. In fact I’ll wager that after a time you will begin to be able to sing the words in Latin and even begin to understand the translation. All by “familiarity”.

i believe many of the latin proponents are the last gasp of those who recall the pre-vatican II Mass who don’t want to see it fade away.

I take it you have never been to an EF parish.
Well I may be one of those who remember the Latin mass, though just barely since I was about 10 yo when they changed it to English, but I have seen many young people at the EF’s I have attended, and they were not just there to “hold up” us old folks.

If your view were true, I doubt if the Holy Father would have felt it necessary and good to issue the Moto Proprio on the Latin mass or to issue a statement after that declaring his wish that the EF be celebrated at least occasionally in every parish.

and i have to wonder, what was the mood and attitude long ago in churchs when the their Mass went from the vernacular to latin

In the “Long ago times” you refer to, it was the “vernacular” that moved away from the “Latin” not the other way around. For most of the Christian history of western Europe and America, Latin was taught as a matter of course in every school, even secular ones, from at least “high school” on up. It is only more recently that Latin has been dropped from most curriculums.

Peace
James

 

[Digitonomy]

However, we know that there is an ever increasing segment of the present day population that, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer the Latin Mass.

I’m not sure that’s something “we know.” There have always in the last few decades been a number of people who would have preferred a Latin mass. Until recently, few have had that opportunity. It’s still the case that attending a Latin mass is not practical for many who would prefer to do so. If it were mandated that a Latin mass be offered at every parish, total attendance at all Latin masses would skyrocket. That wouldn’t demonstrate an increased percentage of people who prefer it, just an increased percentage able to attend it. And so it may be now.

Then again, it may be that the percentage of Catholics who prefer mass in Latin is truly growing - in that case, we’ll start to see those masses bursting at the seams, and it will be offered in more and more parishes. It will take a few years to see which is the better explanation for the trend.

 

[NPC]

i believe many of the latin proponents are the last gasp of those who recall the pre-vatican II Mass who don’t want to see it fade away. and i have to wonder, what was the mood and attitude long ago in churchs when the their Mass went from the vernacular to latin

This is certainly not my experience. I was born about 20 years after Vatican II, so up until about 18 months ago, the only Holy Mass I knew was the Ordinary Form in the vernacular. Then I took up a post for a year at a cathedral where one Holy Mass on Sunday was the O.F. celebrated in Latin. On Holy Thursday last year I attended the Mass of the Lord’s Supper celebrated according to the missal of Blessed John XXIII. The Extraordinary Form of the Holy Mass is not available very frequently in my diocese, but I go to it whenever it is celebrated. I find it to be a very special, beautiful and soul-nourishing experience. Now, that’s not to say that an O.F. Mass celebrated with reverence cannot provide a similar experience, and I certainly do not question the validity of the Ordinary Form, but the Extraordinary Form appeals greatly to me.

I am certainly not in favour of preserving it merely as a relic of the past. If offering the E.F. has the effects that it’s supposed to have - namely giving glory to God and nourishing the people spiritually, then it is a form of the Latin Rite well worth preserving.

Also, as JRKH said, the Extraordinary Form Masses are generally well attended by young people - indeed, young people going there of their own accord!

Regarding the O.P. & to add to what others have said, the celebration of the Holy Mass in Latin is the form given to us by the Church. It doesn’t matter if you are a pre- or post-Vatican II person, the Church still desired that Latin would be central to its liturgies. Nothing whatsoever in Vatican II changed this: there was only ever the possibility of the Holy Mass being celebrated in the vernacular. Nor, incidentally, did the Vatican Council intend that the Mass would be celebrated facing the people - again, it was given as a possibility. There was a recommendation that altars in new churches should be constructed away from the wall to allow for Mass facing the people as well as ad orientem - it never gave priests and bishops a mandate to destroy existing high altars and put mere tables in their place.

So perhaps with the growing interest in the Extraordinary Form and the celebration of the Ordinary form in Latin and ad orientem, we are witnessing something of a reform of the reform - an effort to bring ourselves in line with what the Church actually intended.

 

[eichenb2]

I am new to Catholicism and have a great appreciation of the EF. My esperience is that that Novus Ordo is not, frequently, celebrated with due reverance, humility, and dignity. I am not suggesting that it cannot be. I have, occasionally, visited parishes where the Mass celebration is appropriately reverent. However, more often, it seems eerily similar to the protestant “worship” services that I attended as a child.

I attend an EF mass weekly and, reluctantly, will attend a Novus Ordo, if necessary. I do not “speak” Latin. To my knowledge, noone does. However, it is not difficult to follow. In fact, after a few months, one becomes quite familiar with the Ordinary of the Mass. Also, like a previous post mentioned, the translation is readily available.

It would be neglectful to add that I speak Spanish and have a history with French also. Therefore, my case may be a tad different. On the other end of the spectrum, though, my wife has never studied any other language beyond 10th grade Spanish (other than English) and she prefers the EF, too.

I do see how the old Mass could have been misused in the past. However, I think that the EF speaks more clearly to the Church’s theology than the Novus Ordo. I will give a couple of examples. First, reception of Eucharist on the tongue and kneeling, inherently in my opinion, aids the Communicant in appreciation of the Eucharisto. Like C.S. Lewis said in the Screwtape Letters, “they (humans) can be persuaded that the bodily position makes no difference to their prayers; for they constantly forget, what you must always remember, that they are animals and that whatever their bodies do affects their souls”.
Second, the Priest faces the Altar with his back to the congregation in the EF. This, to me, speaks to the Church’s theory more profoundly. The Priest is, truly, “In Persona Christi”.

The bottom line for me is that the EF is more beautiful that the NO; linguistically, musically, theologically, etc. By the way, my wife and I are under 40 and about 40% of those who I see attending the EF regularly are, likewise, young. I am quite happy to see the latest move to get back to the Liturgical roots.

 

[OraLabora]

First of all one must realize that the Mass of Paul VI, that is, the “Ordinary Form Mass”, is a Latin Mass.

Not only can this Mass rightfully be celebrated in Latin, it remains the “official” language of the current Mass, with the vernacular allowed, in areas where the use of Latin may be an obstacle to the faithful or the local celebrants.

Any missal in another language must have a concordat cum originali with the Latin version of the Mass, that is, it must faithfully conform to the original Latin version. Sadly the ICEL translation into English fell short in many ways, the new translation is much more faithful to the Latin. While there are a few glitches in French, the main liturgical language in my part of the world, it wasn’t anywhere nearly as bad as the ICEL English.

Now, this doesn’t address the many other abuses of the OF Mass. But that has little to do with the Mass itself. If we were faithful to the Conciliar documents of Vatican II there wouldn’t be a problem.

 

[JRKH]

I’m not sure that’s something “we know.” There have always in the last few decades been a number of people who would have preferred a Latin mass. Until recently, few have had that opportunity. It’s still the case that attending a Latin mass is not practical for many who would prefer to do so. If it were mandated that a Latin mass be offered at every parish, total attendance at all Latin masses would skyrocket. That wouldn’t demonstrate an increased percentage of people who prefer it, just an increased percentage able to attend it. And so it may be now.

Then again, it may be that the percentage of Catholics who prefer mass in Latin is truly growing - in that case, we’ll start to see those masses bursting at the seams, and it will be offered in more and more parishes. It will take a few years to see which is the better explanation for the trend.

Nicely put.

Peace
James

 

[eichenb2]

ecclesiadei.org/Information.htm

 

[curlycool89]

I only go to english masses. If I were to go to a Latin mass I would probably spend the whole time following along in a book, and at that point there’s no real difference if I’m in the Church or watching it on tv. In english I can just follow along naturally. The mass is meant to be listened to, not read along with like some theatre production (like say Shakespeare).

 

[Cristiano]

I just like the Mass in Latin whether is the OF or the EF.

To me is a language thing especially here in the States where people look down on Masses in Spanish or other languages because this is the “Catholic Church of America”.

I prefer Latin even to the Italian translation. It looks like every translation gets worse with time. I really hope for the new OF in English.

I am not getting into the differences/preferences between the OF and EF because the OP is about language and not details of the liturgy.

 

[JRKH]

I only go to english masses. If I were to go to a Latin mass I would probably spend the whole time following along in a book, and at that point there’s no real difference if I’m in the Church or watching it on tv. In english I can just follow along naturally. The mass is meant to be listened to, not read along with like some theatre production (like say Shakespeare).

I just like the Mass in Latin whether is the OF or the EF.

To me is a language thing especially here in the States where people look down on Masses in Spanish or other languages because this is the “Catholic Church of America”.

I prefer Latin even to the Italian translation. It looks like every translation gets worse with time. I really hope for the new OF in English.

I am not getting into the differences/preferences between the OF and EF because the OP is about language and not details of the liturgy.

Isn’t it wonderful that Our Dear Lord, through the office of His most obedient Vicar Pope benedict the XVI, has given us the opportunity for both of these positions to be satisfied. The Holy father has not only “freed” the EF from any restrictions he has even “encouraged” its use in every parish. Now all we need to do is get the EF sufficiently widespread so that those who want the OF in English will have it and those who want the EF in Latin will have it as well.

Let us all join arms in joyful unity and move forward.

Peace
James

 

[feargalmac]

Having travelled quite bit in Europe where every country has its own language, having the Mass in Latin would have made life a lot easier for me and my family. Being a member of a Universal Church having one language for worship just makes sense to me. In a country like the US of A, where you have different cultures living side by side, a universal language would help bring about integration and break down any prejudice that might be there.

Well that’s my two cents worth!:twocents:

 

[eichenb2]

Having travelled quite bit in Europe where every country has its own language, having the Mass in Latin would have made life a lot easier for me and my family. Being a member of a Universal Church having one language for worship just makes sense to me. In a country like the US of A, where you have different cultures living side by side, a universal language would help bring about integration and break down any prejudice that might be there.

Well that’s my two cents worth!:twocents:

I agree and I think your opinion is worth more than 2 cents.

 

[Sarabande]

Of the many questions and comments offered on the Catholic Answers Forums, there is one question that I believe has not been adequately addressed and has caused me some confusion.

My question is: There seems to be an often expressed declaration by many who remember the Latin Mass that they were perplexed or uncomfortable or uneasy because they did not understand it. However, we know that there is an ever increasing segment of the present day population that, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer the Latin Mass. Is this because they understand Latin or are they, too, attending a mass that they do not understand? That would make no sense. Yet look at how tenaciously they adhere to it. Can someone iron this out for me?

I will first say that I like the mass both in Latin and in the vernacular (for me, in English). I’ve attended many Latin OF masses because my parish offers it. When I can, I will also attend EF masses.

I won’t speak for generations older or younger than me, but speaking as a late Gen-Xer who grew up only with the OF, I can say that many of my contemporaries who also like or prefer mass in Latin, especially the EF, do so mainly because they were searching for something more reverent and less watered-down. Our generation was often pandered to. In the 1980s, when I was a little girl, we experienced a lot of gimmicks at mass. Everything was really saccharine. I remember, as I got a little older around 10 or so, that something was lacking. When I speak with friends of my age and younger, that is the main reason why they are drawn to the EF mass. They are getting the reverence and spiritual fulfillment which they missed in the OFs at their home parishes. I didn’t experience a truly reverent mass until my last year in college. Until then, I had no idea that the OF could be said in Latin. I also had no idea about an EF until then, and didn’t attend one until I graduated from college and moved to another state which offered it at their cathedral.

It does seem for our generation that Latin and practically anything from our heritage was kept under lock and key. Whenever anything was brought up regarding the topic it was hushed up immediately. That was “old” and not current. We were told that it was something we wouldn’t or shouldn’t get into.

In terms of the Latin, for me, personally, I don’t have a problem grasping the Latin. First because in the Latin OF booklets, as well as the EF missalettes, they have the English right next to it. As a classical singer, I’ve had to study some Latin and had to learn how to pronounce differently - in the French, German and Italian ways - since many sacred vocal works are in that language and conductors will sometimes request us to pronounce the Latin how the composer would have heard it. I’ve also had to study the romance languages for my musical training, so languages aren’t too intimidating for me when I see a language different from my own. Most people don’t have that experience, so I do realize that and understand why some people would not feel comfortable having the mass in Latin. I also like the Latin because when I’ve travelled to other countries and was able to find a Latin OF mass, it was much easier for me than to be in a mass said in a language that I either couldn’t understand at all or had just a rudimentary understanding of it.

I will stress that a few of the parishes I attend now (my parish and parishes I’ve worked in as a musician), as well as parishes in other countries or around the US do not have the irreverent and watered down OF masses, so I have experienced reverent and beautiful liturgies in the OF. I don’t want to appear as if I’m against the OF at all. I mostly attend OF masses myself. I just wish that my generation didn’t have our heritage seemingly hidden from us.

 

[curlycool89]

Isn’t it wonderful that Our Dear Lord, through the office of His most obedient Vicar Pope benedict the XVI, has given us the opportunity for both of these positions to be satisfied. The Holy father has not only “freed” the EF from any restrictions he has even “encouraged” its use in every parish. Now all we need to do is get the EF sufficiently widespread so that those who want the OF in English will have it and those who want the EF in Latin will have it as well.

Let us all join arms in joyful unity and move forward.

Peace
James

I agree, that would be the best for everyone.

 

[ProVobis]

When we had the Latin Mass before Vatican 2, the missals had both Latin and English (or the appropriate vernacular) so that though the Mass was in Latin, it was easy to follow…the original Mass.

The English was a crutch; it was not official. The Latin was the official and wouldn’t change, whereas the English differed from handmissal to handmissal. One of the peeves I have in the EF Mass with the vernacular readings is that the vernacular is difficult to follow. There is no official text specified for these vernaculars in the EF, whereas the Latin flows very smoothly.