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Sciaky
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Which within the Church is miniscule. The comparitively tiny number who attend the EF are often fans of that form and would not be dissuaded from having to use a missalette to follow the Mass.
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Sciaky
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That is very well put. I have noticed a big change in my own diocese since the MP was promugated. There were demands for an EF for a very long time. When we finally got one it really took-off for a few months but then it began to languish. Now it seems to be slowly in decline even though its celebrated at a top-notch parish in a central location.
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JRKH
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I’m sorry to hear this, but even this illustrates a good point. There will be those who attend out of curiousity and then decide, for whatever reason, to go back to attending the OF. There will also be those who attend the OF primarily and the EF occasionally. There are all sorts of variations on this. It’s just nice that the option is available.
Peace
James
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NPC
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Yes, I think it’s the choice that’s important. One of the greatest fruits of the Holy Mass should be the spiritual edification of the people - if the Extraordinary Form achieves this better than the Ordinary Form for a reasonable number of people in a diocese/parish, then it should be offered. There is nothing to fear by offering both - as Pope Benedict said, they should be regarded as two expressions of the same rite rather than two seperate rites.
Unfortunately - and I know it to be the case here in Ireland - some dioceses are of the view that they ought to offer an E.F. Mass once every month or two and that if the numbers increase, they’ll increase the frequency. In my view, this is the wrong way to go about it - they should start with good and regular frequency. I mean, if someone knows that EVERY Sunday at 10 o’ clock there’s going to be an E.F. Holy Mass, they’re probably more likely to attend - it creates a routine for them. On the other hand, if they have to keep track for an update on a website or constantly make themselves conscious that the Mass is going to be on the third Sunday of every second month, they may not think it’s worth the effort.
When I think of the issue of frequency of E.F. Masses I’m reminded of what happened when a bus service in my area was drastically increased: for some time there was only one bus per hour into the city centre. At peak times it would be full to capacity, but almost empty for most of the day. After the route was altered slightly, the frequency was increased fourfold - every 15 minutes. Passenger numbers increased by several hundred percent…The point is, as I see it, put a good service in and people will use it - if it’s a rubbish service and not catering to their needs they’ll go elsewhere. I think the same goes for people’s spiritual needs.
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OraLabora
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I am definitely in favor of the Mass being in Latin at least for one Mass a day in locations that are a crossroads where people from many nationalities will congregate. In my own country I can think of Montreal, Toronto and perhaps Vancouver and definitely at major shrines and pilgrimage sites. I used to travel a lot on business (mostly to Korea at the time) and the availability of a Latin Mass would have helped, but at least the Franciscans ran a multilingual International church in Seoul (French, English, etc). Latin would be so much easier; I can hack my way through a Mass in Italian, Spanish or Portuguese with a missal, but Korean! No way! I am quite fond of the OF Mass, and think it should be more widely said in Latin.
It’s probably a bit much to expect every village parish to do Mass in Latin, but in the large cities and definitely at pilgrimage sites, it should be easy to find. I am fluent in French and Latin certainly is no obstacle for me to understand the Mass. Nobody has to be in fluent to learn the basic parts and responses of the Mass in Latin.
I was at the 2009 World Oblate’s congress last October and trying to satisfy everyone with a Mass (and the daily office as we also sang Lauds, Vespers and Compline), was a bear. We had ONE Mass in Latin and it turned out to be the one that worked out the best and everyone could chant the major parts for the laity with no problems as missal sheets were provided (I even sang the Proper of the Mass with a small ad-hoc schola we put together!). Much easier for me than attempting German that’s for sure.
The conference organizer had already told me before the end of the congress they are seriously considering having all Masses and Offices in Latin at the next congress.
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Sciaky
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Your comments are interesting. I don’t mean to de-rail this thread but it would be fascinating to analyze why the EF has not grown in my deanery. Even though the pastor (and bishop) is extremely supportive of the EF, he’s so busy (3 OF’s on Sunday) that a retired priest usually (enthisiastically) celebrates the EF with the pastor filling in. I think that has possibly caused some who attend the EF to feel like they are not part of the parish.
I think they have also had a tough time raising the resources (be it $$$ or talent/time) to transition from a Low Mass to either a Missa Cantata or a High Mass which tends to keep away those who crave pageantry.
There is also the issue of just how greatly the average OF has improved in my diocese since my bishop arrived about 3 years ago. I think possibly that fewer and fewer are seeking sanctuary at the EF.
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Sciaky
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If you traveled where Eastern Catholicism or Orthodoxy was king, you would have found most of the liturgies in the vernacular.
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OraLabora
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Bingo! I have always suspected that if abuse of the OF Mass ended and the proper degree of solemnity and reverence brought back to it, whether a said weekday Mass without music or a solemn Sunday Mass with choir, etc., the demand for the EF wouldn’t be as strong as it is.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for that viewpoint, but there’s got to be a reason why many Catholics chose to go to Mass at our nearby Benedictine abbey every Sunday rather than go to their home parishes. They do a reverential vernacular Mass but with Latin Propers and Kyriale sung in Gregorian Chant. I for one don’t particularly care to seek out an EF Mass when I can go to such a solemn and beautiful OF Mass.
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otjm
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Once Rome had fallen, Latin as a universal language dropped off as the Latin speakers - the Romans - were no longer the cohesive force they had been. Subesequently in the political vacuum that was created, nation states formed and the language was of the tribal group who conquered. It was a long, long time before people were educated in Latin to any significant extent for the simple reason that the printing press had not yet been invented. and even after the press was invented, it was a long time before the majority of people had the equivalent of a high school education. Thus, for a long time, the educated elite might know Latin, but the general population did not.That is simply because it was something different and unexpected. If this same hymn were to by used at each benediction you would become use to it and it would no longer be “distracting”. In fact I’ll wager that after a time you will begin to be able to sing the words in Latin and even begin to understand the translation. All by “familiarity”.
I take it you have never been to an EF parish.
Well I may be one of those who remember the Latin mass, though just barely since I was about 10 yo when they changed it to English, but I have seen many young people at the EF’s I have attended, and they were not just there to “hold up” us old folks.
If your view were true, I doubt if the Holy Father would have felt it necessary and good to issue the Moto Proprio on the Latin mass or to issue a statement after that declaring his wish that the EF be celebrated at least occasionally in every parish.
In the “Long ago times” you refer to, it was the “vernacular” that moved away from the “Latin” not the other way around. For most of the Christian history of western Europe and America, Latin was taught as a matter of course in every school, even secular ones, from at least “high school” on up. It is only more recently that Latin has been dropped from most curriculums.
Peace
James
In short, for the majority of history, schools were open to the elite, not the masses. and for a period of time, translations of the Latin Mass were not allowed. Do a bit of research, you will find it.
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otjm
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I think that one needs to have perspective, and what is too often lacking is an overall perspective.
According to a group that tracks the Latin Mass throughout the world, out of approximately 117,000 parishes world wide, about one in 250 have the Latin Mass. That works out to slightly more than 2 tenths of one percent.
There are a number of problems trying to sort out who likes the EF, who wants the EF, how many people are responding positively to it, and variations on that theme.
The first is that there are very few priests trained to say the EF - the rubrics are not as simple as in the OF, and most younger priests are not fluent in Latin; they may have little or no exposure to it.
In addition, there has been no working out what a “stable group” means; so you could have a group of 50 to 100 people in a parish to 1200 families who want the Mass; but no one to say what that effectively means.
Anyone much under the age of 45 has little or no exposure the the EF; so when they express interest in it, it is hard to say to what degree that interest exists. Curiosity? Strong curiosity? Some level of committment to support it? Then, in addition, there is the issue of to what degree the bishop backs the idea; he can be strongly against it, somewhat against it, neutral toward it, in favor or strongly in favor; and add that to the limited number of priests who are trained or interested in being trained, and the question grows stronger.
The short of it is that it is hard to say that the EF will grow much more than it has. For example, Cardinal George of Chicago is not one I would call a liberal. There are 12 (as of the last count I have heard) parishes in the archdiocese which have the EF. That sounds like a lot until you do a nose count; it is something like about 3.5% of the parishes.
There are people who are very enthusiastic about the EF. Some of that is a hunger for stability and reverence; however, where reverence in the OF increases, what will counter growth of the EF is that many people much prefer the vernacular.
I would expect that the EF will continue to grow in availability over time, as we have recalcitrant bishops die or retire, and as we continue to ordain priests who no longer have the issues and ideology of two generations back. But as the Pope said in his accompanying letter, I would not expect perhaps much more than what we currently see, say, in Chicago. History may prove otherwise, but wwe all won’t know until it has occured.
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otjm
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The Universal Church has not had one languages to worship in since the Apostles left Jerusalem and fanned out over the then known world. The Universal Church is not the Roman rite; the Roman rite is but one of a multitude of rites, the majority of which are in their own native language; for example, the Maronite rite Mass is said partly in Aramaic and partly in Arabic, and partly in English in the US.
The Roman rite, no questions asked, is the largest rite by far. However, it is most certainly not the “universal” rite; the others are of equal dignity, value, authenticity and antiquity - if not more.
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pro_multis
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I believe that by the 100th anniversary of Vatican II, the Novus Ordo will essentially be a thing of the past, with the Church coming back full circle to the Tridentine mass. Some bishops may permit N.O. indult masses, but they will be few and far between.
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Sciaky
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I remember reading where someone did a statistical analysis using data from Mass Times and something like .025-.050% of all Masses were EFs. That means that far more OF Masses are added each year than the total number of EF’s in existance.
I think the current EF is pretty much relegated to extremely limited use for perpetuity. If the current OF ever does get replaced (and that could well happen in the next 500 or so years) it certainly won’t be by the current EF or a derivative thereof.
I think the current EF is pretty much relegated to extremely limited use for perpetuity. If the current OF ever does get replaced (and that could well happen in the next 500 or so years) it certainly won’t be by the current EF or a derivative thereof.
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Sciaky
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That is a very good point. I have seen that in my diocese.
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JRKH
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I agree with much of what you say here. I also think that much of the solution will come in time.
Now that the Holy Father has made the EF equal to the OF, seminaries will need to make sure that their priests are trained in both forms. During this training some seminarians will naturally be drawn to the EF while others to the OF. In fact they will likely run the gammut from prefering one form over the other, to prefering both equally.
The result of this will be that there will be more priests able to and willing to celebrate the EF for those wishing it. This will also have the result of exposing more people to the EF which will likewise result in each choosing one or the other or liking both equally.
I’m reminded of the passage in Acts, where the elder Gamaliel tried to get the Sanhedrin to at least take a “wait and see attitude” with the “Jesus movement”. The verse that stands out is, “Acts 5:38-39
And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it–lest you even be found to fight against God.”
So - I say to everyone. Be patient. If the EF is meant to be a full, equal and continuing part of our liturgy then it will grow and be accepted. If it is NOT meant to be, then, “it will come to nothing”.
Only time will tell. The only thing I have ever asked is that it be given a fair shot.
Peace
James
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JRKH
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I don’t know tha tI fully agree with you here for reasons that I listed in the post above. Mainly being that there will be amny more priests able and willing to celebrate the EF in the future.
Of course you may well be right that some “hybrid” mass may replace both the EF and OF in the distant future. For now I think that the EF, even the small but persistant interest, will have the effect of bringing greater reverence back into the liturgy.
Peace
James
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ProVobis
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I see a lot of reverence in the Latin OF. Maybe we’ll have more of these as people see the Spanish and Polish Masses overtaking the English Masses.
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ProVobis
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I guess if you don’t mind attending THEIR vernaculars, go for it.
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phrederik
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you’re right i’ve never been to an EF Mass. my age is comparable to yours so i have a simular recollection of the latin Mass. i’m curious, you say “many young people” attend, but what is the breakdown, and are the younger ones there out of curiosity?I take it you have never been to an EF parish.
Well I may be one of those who remember the Latin mass, though just barely since I was about 10 yo when they changed it to English, but I have seen many young people at the EF’s I have attended, and they were not just there to “hold up” us old folks.
this is from New Advent, the Catholic Encyclopedia - “The first Mass, the Last Supper, was probably in Aramaic–possibly in Hebrew. As Christianity spread into the pagan world, the liturgy was translated into Greek and Latin (the vernacular languages of the day). Only with the passage of time and the abandonment of these languages as universal tongues did they take on the quality of sacred languages. In the Western Church, Latin continued to be the common language of the liturgy until recently. In the Eastern churches in communion with the Catholic Church, Greek and other languages, including Aramaic, are used. The Mass in English isn’t an alteration of divine Tradition, but of ecclesiastical custom.”
it wasn’t until the council of trent (mid 1500’s) that the RC church imposed a soley latin Mass, so it seems as though the venacular (given that latin was at one time a ‘vernacular’ language) has a longer history of use
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JRKH
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I don’t know that there has been any studies done on this so I doubt if thse statistics are available. As for whether these people are there “out of curiousity” I can only say that our local EF mass has a fairly stable community and the mix of ages is about the same as you would find at an OF mass. So this includes Older people, and families with children of all ages, as well as young “singles” or “couples”.
I guess then that we are both right in a way.
The Early Church did use the “vernacular” (which included Latin)
The various vernaculars “gave away” to the Latin (indicating an “organic” and gradual change) as the Church grew and the languages changed. But Latin still remained the Language of Liturgy and of Diplomacy etc for many years. It provided a unifying force within the Church and was taught as a “second language” right up to modern times.
Understand here, that I have no problem with the mass in the vernacular or with the OF of the mass. I love them both.
Peace
James
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