Latin vs vernacular mass

[JRKH]

Are you saying that we earn heaven? Jesus is a “get of of hell” free card, the only one available. Without him we have no justification. Grace is free, it is a gift, we only have to accept it. The people that are in your quote are exactly the ones that thought that they could earn heaven. The works that Catholics do are simply a way to show that we accept God’s free and unconditional gift of salvation. This article is a good insight on the concept “free card out of hell” as justification and works as acceptance of a gift.

I think that the problem is what one considers “Free” in the statement, “Jesus is a get of of hell free card”. Those who see belief in Jesus as a “free pass” without needing to truly reform their lives are missing the point. One cannot profess faith and then continue to live in sin if they hope to be saved.

And yes - Works are a necessary part of the salvic plan. Not that works themselves have any value, but they are a natural outpouring of our reformed lives and show, to us and to others, that we belong to Christ. They are a large and crucial part of our witness. As St Francis said, “Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words.” He was just saying that, as followers of Christ, our deeds, our works, are our greatest testimony.

Peace
James

 

[eichenb2]

I think that the problem is what one considers “Free” in the statement, “Jesus is a get of of hell free card”. Those who see belief in Jesus as a “free pass” without needing to truly reform their lives are missing the point. One cannot profess faith and then continue to live in sin if they hope to be saved.

And yes - Works are a necessary part of the salvic plan. Not that works themselves have any value, but they are a natural outpouring of our reformed lives and show, to us and to others, that we belong to Christ. They are a large and crucial part of our witness. As St Francis said, “Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words.” He was just saying that, as followers of Christ, our deeds, our works, are our greatest testimony.

Peace
James

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FAWORKS.htm

 

[phrederik]

I guess if emotion is the largest factor, then this perspective is reasonable. For me, I am about Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. I believe that comparing a Fanny Crosby (who?) song to a sung mass by Michael Haydn is no comparison.

Cat must be a seeker of truth as s/he came home to the church, to her/him the crosby song was beautiful – which is a relative term, beauty unlike truth is subjective, i agree with what s/he wrote “I see no beauty in a system of language–language is a mere tool to communicate. IMO, if I can’t understand it, it’s just gibberish.” – and insofar as goodness is concerned, which it is not relative or subjective, as a seeker of truth s/he is also a seeker of what is good – God.

thank you Cat i enjoyed your post!

 

[eichenb2]

I think that the problem is what one considers “Free” in the statement, “Jesus is a get of of hell free card”. Those who see belief in Jesus as a “free pass” without needing to truly reform their lives are missing the point. One cannot profess faith and then continue to live in sin if they hope to be saved.

And yes - Works are a necessary part of the salvic plan. Not that works themselves have any value, but they are a natural outpouring of our reformed lives and show, to us and to others, that we belong to Christ. They are a large and crucial part of our witness. As St Francis said, “Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words.” He was just saying that, as followers of Christ, our deeds, our works, are our greatest testimony.

Peace
James

As you said so well, Jesus (in the sense of a mere intellectual ascent to His veracity) is NOT a get out of hell free card. For those you would come after Him, they must take up thier cross and follow. So, for example, one MUST attend Mass on Sunday! It is sinful to do otherwise and, by the way, Hell is real separation from God.

 

[eichenb2]

Cat must be a seeker of truth as s/he came home to the church, to her/him the crosby song was beautiful – which is a relative term, beauty unlike truth is subjective, i agree with what s/he wrote “I see no beauty in a system of language–language is a mere tool to communicate. IMO, if I can’t understand it, it’s just gibberish.” – and insofar as goodness is concerned, which it is not relative or subjective, as a seeker of truth s/he is also a seeker of what is good – God.

thank you Cat i enjoyed your post!

Beauty is only relative in the sense that the ability to appreciate beauty varies. If we completely buy into the “beauty is relative” idea, then pornographic is art (not in my opinion, though).

 

[jbelokur]

Of the many questions and comments offered on the Catholic Answers Forums, there is one question that I believe has not been adequately addressed and has caused me some confusion.

My question is: There seems to be an often expressed declaration by many who remember the Latin Mass that they were perplexed or uncomfortable or uneasy because they did not understand it. However, we know that there is an ever increasing segment of the present day population that, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer the Latin Mass. Is this because they understand Latin or are they, too, attending a mass that they do not understand? That would make no sense. Yet look at how tenaciously they adhere to it. Can someone iron this out for me?

Read Thomas Woods book Sacred Then and Sacred Now: The Return of the Old Latin Mass. It can be found at Amazon. It is a great read, it is short and give a good perspective of where Benedict XVI is on the subject.

 

[eichenb2]

Read Thomas Woods book Sacred Then and Sacred Now: The Return of the Old Latin Mass. It can be found at Amazon. It is a great read, it is short and give a good perspective of where Benedict XVI is on the subject.

That sounds like a great read. I will add it to my Amazon wish list.

 

[ProVobis]

i agree with what s/he wrote “I see no beauty in a system of language–language is a mere tool to communicate. IMO, if I can’t understand it, it’s just gibberish.”

Are tax laws gibberish? Are scientific and math equations jibberish if we can’t understand them? If we don’t make some effort to understand them, what makes us better than creatures of God who will never to be able to understand them?

English was not my first language. I’m very familiar with problems of translations and how much ones can lose in translations. I laugh when I read some of those subtitles in foreign movies. Dramas become comedies. The Church has pretty much admitted the original translations into English were far from perfect. Wouldn’t it behoove everyone to study just a little of the Latin original in order to appreciate the effort the Church is doing to make the translations more accurate? To a Catholic like me, hearing someone say he or she just doesn’t like Latin (or any official language of the Church) means a little more than if that same person were perhaps to say he doesn’t like Korean, for example. But that’s me.

 

[Cristiano]

…So, for example, one MUST attend Mass on Sunday! It is sinful to do otherwise and, by the way, …

What is the real reason that we must attend Mass on Sunday? What kind of sin is if we don’t? Do all Catholics must attend Mass on Sundays?

I am asking these questions because I think that people need to reflect more on the concept of Justification, of Grace, and how we accept it. I am saying that because it is easy to loose track of what it is real important.

I see a lot of Catholics that get lost in the formalism of works, reverence, piety. They tend to get too much into the tactic (works) that they forget the strategy (economy of God). Tactic is there to support a strategy, we cannot decouple them.

What I see as a problem in dealing with some people in the parish is that orthodox adults tend to become scrupulous and children miss the relation aspect with God when we start to loose focus. We also have to be careful to avoid the trap of OSAS because that is a implicit rejection of free will.

 

[eichenb2]

What is the real reason that we must attend Mass on Sunday? What kind of sin is if we don’t? Do all Catholics must attend Mass on Sundays?

I am asking these questions because I think that people need to reflect more on the concept of Justification, of Grace, and how we accept it. I am saying that because it is easy to loose track of what it is real important.

I see a lot of Catholics that get lost in the formalism of works, reverence, piety. They tend to get too much into the tactic (works) that they forget the strategy (economy of God). Tactic is there to support a strategy, we cannot decouple them.

What I see as a problem in dealing with some people in the parish is that orthodox adults tend to become scrupulous and children miss the relation aspect with God when we start to loose focus. We also have to be careful to avoid the trap of OSAS because that is a implicit rejection of free will.

What is really important, in my opinion, is unflinching faithfulness to the Magisterioum of the Catholic Church. And the Church, says it is grave matter and potentially a MORTAL SIN to intentional miss Mass on sunday (or saturday night). By the way, all the other things you said about faith being relational is good and true, but one who neglect Mass attendance may never come to know that.

 

[OraLabora]

What is the real reason that we must attend Mass on Sunday? What kind of sin is if we don’t? Do all Catholics must attend Mass on Sundays?

I am asking these questions because I think that people need to reflect more on the concept of Justification, of Grace, and how we accept it. I am saying that because it is easy to loose track of what it is real important.

I see a lot of Catholics that get lost in the formalism of works, reverence, piety. They tend to get too much into the tactic (works) that they forget the strategy (economy of God). Tactic is there to support a strategy, we cannot decouple them.

What I see as a problem in dealing with some people in the parish is that orthodox adults tend to become scrupulous and children miss the relation aspect with God when we start to loose focus. We also have to be careful to avoid the trap of OSAS because that is a implicit rejection of free will.

I have noticed more or less the same thing on this forum. One must not confuse the outward appearance with the inner disposition. One must always keep this in mind the Pharisee and the Publican. I relate much more to the latter than the former!

But earlier in my “reconversion” (I am a returnee to the faith), I was more in the category of the former. But my own “dark night of the soul” revealed to me that I am still the miserable sinner that I always was, and my own bravado was not going to change that. It revealed to me that we are always 100% reliant on God’s love, grace and mercy. And that cut me down a notch or two, and it was a necessary chopping.

No amount of outwards display of piety will change these facts, and I have come to realize that it matters not whether I receive standing or kneeling, on the hand or on the tongue. Whichever method “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you…” still applies.

You can make yourself look good all you want but God can still read the true state of your heart. The heart that says “look at me, Lord, I am not like that poor wretch over there, I receive on the tongue kneeling and he is too miserable a sinner to even dare approach you” is not a humble heart. As Psalm 50(51) says:

“My sacrifice, a contrite spirit,
A humbled contrite heart, you will not spurn.”

 

[eichenb2]

What is the real reason that we must attend Mass on Sunday? What kind of sin is if we don’t? Do all Catholics must attend Mass on Sundays?

I am asking these questions because I think that people need to reflect more on the concept of Justification, of Grace, and how we accept it. I am saying that because it is easy to loose track of what it is real important.

I see a lot of Catholics that get lost in the formalism of works, reverence, piety. They tend to get too much into the tactic (works) that they forget the strategy (economy of God). Tactic is there to support a strategy, we cannot decouple them.

What I see as a problem in dealing with some people in the parish is that orthodox adults tend to become scrupulous and children miss the relation aspect with God when we start to loose focus. We also have to be careful to avoid the trap of OSAS because that is a implicit rejection of free will.

Also…
why does it seems that some people want to set up a false dichotomy between the intellectual tradition and spiritual practices of the CC?

 

[jbelokur]

What is really important, in my opinion, is unflinching faithfulness to the Magisterioum of the Catholic Church. And the Church, says it is grave matter and potentially a MORTAL SIN to intentional miss Mass on sunday (or saturday night). By the way, all the other things you said about faith being relational is good and true, but one who neglect Mass attendance may never come to know that.

Or have the grace necessary to truly live the faith in the day. The Eucharist is, “The source and summit of the Christian life. The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ Himself, our Pasch.”(CCC 1324). If we neglect this what then can we possibly do? Our obligations to the mass are family obligations. Just as we have obligations to our biological families we too have obligations to our mystical family the Church, with Christ as its head.

 

[Aramis]

I guess if you don’t mind attending THEIR vernaculars, go for it.

You’ll find the verncular in the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches as well, tho not as consistently as with the Orthodox. Often, mixed vernacular and liturgical language. (For Ukrainian, Russian, and Ruthenian, that’s Church Slavonic.)

The thing is, many of the people I personally know attending the latin mass are doing so out of a belief it is more effective. It’s about magic words to them. Most of them don’t understand Latin, nor do they want to understand Latin. Several gripe about the English in the missal. They want the mystical experience as theater. And they are younger than I. I just barely remember the implementation of the Pauline Missal, but not the pre-transitional missals.

Then again, the Roman Rite Archdiocese locally has few abuses, tho’ a high rate of use of EMHC’s. Including lines for confession… but generally not the youth, not even for the Latin-fans.

 

[Cristiano]

Also…
why does it seems that some people want to set up a false dichotomy between the intellectual tradition and spiritual practices of the CC?

It seems that way because it is true! People in their fallen nature tend to do that. Some so-called Catholics base their religion on only feelings and disobey the Church just to do what they feel good in their hearts. Other so-called Catholics based their religion only on form and disobey the Church just to do what they think is intellectually right. We are human beings and quite sensitive to the sin of pride. Intellectual tradition in my opinion is good and necessary, but I am afraid that some people, as you pointed out, either fight it or follow it without true intellect or love.

 

[Cristiano]

What is really important, in my opinion, is unflinching faithfulness to the Magisterioum of the Catholic Church. And the Church, says it is grave matter and potentially a MORTAL SIN to intentional miss Mass on sunday (or saturday night). By the way, all the other things you said about faith being relational is good and true, but one who neglect Mass attendance may never come to know that.

You are correct! We must attend Sunday Mass because Canon Law says so. Canon law says so because it is good for us. Why is it good for us? Because during Mass we can receive the gift of actual grace. This is not simply about unflinching faithfulness to the Magisterium but because it is good for us. Obligation of Sunday Mass is not a doctrine of the Church per se. It is an obligation (defined by Canon law) for the Latin Rite. Other Catholics do not have the same law in their Canon. Do they commit mortal sin if they skip a Sunday Mass? Should they ignore the day of the Lord?

What I was trying to get was your last point: “…but one who neglects Mass attendance may never come to know that” You nail it perfectly down. My point is that as Catholics that is the very first step but we have an obligation to move beyond that through faith and reason. We do not have a spirituality fits all religion and so some disciplines could change for the good of the people, but not necessarily for their convenience or feelings.

I think that people must also to come to the realization that the Mass, even if it brings us actual grace, it is not really for us but for God. So we must accept that for once we are not at the center of the universe whether it is intellectual or emotional.

 

[eichenb2]

I have noticed more or less the same thing on this forum. One must not confuse the outward appearance with the inner disposition. One must always keep this in mind the Pharisee and the Publican. I relate much more to the latter than the former!

But earlier in my “reconversion” (I am a returnee to the faith), I was more in the category of the former. But my own “dark night of the soul” revealed to me that I am still the miserable sinner that I always was, and my own bravado was not going to change that. It revealed to me that we are always 100% reliant on God’s love, grace and mercy. And that cut me down a notch or two, and it was a necessary chopping.

No amount of outwards display of piety will change these facts, and I have come to realize that it matters not whether I receive standing or kneeling, on the hand or on the tongue. Whichever method “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you…” still applies.

You can make yourself look good all you want but God can still read the true state of your heart. The heart that says “look at me, Lord, I am not like that poor wretch over there, I receive on the tongue kneeling and he is too miserable a sinner to even dare approach you” is not a humble heart. As Psalm 50(51) says:

“My sacrifice, a contrite spirit,
A humbled contrite heart, you will not spurn.”

One has to keep the letter and the spirit. There not a distinction. Or, as Saint James said, faith without works is DEAD. Even in those dry spiritual deserts, one still has to attend mass. C.S. Lewis wrote in the Screwtape Letters (a senior demon to a junior temptor), that devil’s “cause is never more in danger, than when a human, no longer desiring, but intending, to do our Enemy’s will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.”

God made us to be santos, but we have to will it so…and do it.

 

[pnewton]

Why should they have to settle for Latin when they could have English?

Why should we settle for English if we could have Spanish, or settle for Spanish if we could have Latin?

One of the great benefits to Latin is that it unifies multiple cultures withoug favoritism. Having served in many biliungual Masses, it is always amazing how some people weight each use of the language to make sure theirs gets a fair share of time. I am so pleased that our priest is moving this Triduum to Latin to unify the parish in a common language.

This is one use for Latin. There is also the argument that we are Catholic. Our Holy Father has desired an expansion of the use of Latin. For me, that should override all other considerations. How much it is used, and whether it is used in one’s own parish, is something for the bishop and local priest to consider. But we should not resent those that are following the Church’s instructions and being obedient to the Holy Father.

 

[pnewton]

At last night’s Mass during Communion, we sang a Fanny Crosby song (In the Cross), a song that I have not sung since leaving the Evangelical church. Beautiful words, beautiful singable melody.

Do you mean Near the Cross? I played that this Sunday during offertory. I am with you on the old classic Protestant hymns. There are those though who feel the same way about them as you do about chants, and they love Latin hymns as much as you do the hymns you grew up with.

I entered on Attende Domine (Latin). In try to give a diversity of music to please all, it is unavoidable that some it will also displease some people. Let us accept the good and the bad.

 

[eichenb2]

You’ll find the verncular in the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches as well, tho not as consistently as with the Orthodox. Often, mixed vernacular and liturgical language. (For Ukrainian, Russian, and Ruthenian, that’s Church Slavonic.)

The thing is, many of the people I personally know attending the latin mass are doing so out of a belief it is more effective. It’s about magic words to them. Most of them don’t understand Latin, nor do they want to understand Latin. Several gripe about the English in the missal. They want the mystical experience as theater. And they are younger than I. I just barely remember the implementation of the Pauline Missal, but not the pre-transitional missals.

Then again, the Roman Rite Archdiocese locally has few abuses, tho’ a high rate of use of EMHC’s. Including lines for confession… but generally not the youth, not even for the Latin-fans.

I think you are making sweeping (and generally) false assumptions about others’ motives and aptitudes. I for one do not like the irreverance that the Novus Ordo (in my experience is frequently celebrated). As I stated previously, the Novus Ordo can be celebrated properly, but I prefer the solemnity of the EF.