Latinizations??

[Angel_Gabriel]

i’ve been reading alot about this and I really wonder what are some of the latinizations that Eastern Catholics really would like to change?

I’ve been looking around for Eastern Catholic churches in the US and the ones who have websites often have references to First Holy Communion (mostly I’ve found this to be true with the Maronite or Chaldean churches). i thought that was a Latin/Roman custom to separate the Sacraments of Initiation? Am I wrong or is this an example of a latinization?

 

[thunderballs75]

Well, the Melkite church I went to this morning had pews. That is a complete Latinization. I think this is not good (although chairs for elderly and sick people is good).

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Well, the Melkite church I went to this morning had pews. That is a complete Latinization. I think this is not good (although chairs for elderly and sick people is good).

I’m part of a mission where I live to re-start a Ukrainian Mission. When it does get started we will mostly likely hold Divine Liturgy in a Latin Church or chapel which will of course have pews. Will this be a problem and will most people think that it is something that they won’t want if/when we start our parish (God willing!) ?

 

[thunderballs75]

I’m part of a mission where I live to re-start a Ukrainian Mission. When it does get started we will mostly likely hold Divine Liturgy in a Latin Church or chapel which will of course have pews. Will this be a problem and will most people think that it is something that they won’t want if/when we start our parish (God willing!) ?

Oh, it shouldn’t be a problem. Absolutely not, if it is temporary. However, as far as I know, the Eastern Catholics never kneel during services, especially during the Sunday Divine Liturgy. So pews are 1) a Latinization and 2) an unnecessary extra cost. It is not at all a part of the Eastern tradition, so I’d say that it is best not to have them.

 

[Aramis]

There is kneeling during Presanctified during Great Lent, and it’s not a latinization.

Prostrations are sometimes used; I’ve seen video of Melkite priests prostrating during the anaphora.

The big ones, for me, are Kneeling on Sundays, Rosary* in place of *Matins or 3rd hour, spoken liturgy, and lack of Iconostasi.

While we don’t have Matins nor vespers at the parish I go to, we do have 3rd hour before liturgy. The Rosary is done before 3rd hour, not in place of.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

There is kneeling during Presanctified during Great Lent, and it’s not a latinization.

Prostrations are sometimes used; I’ve seen video of Melkite priests prostrating during the anaphora.

The big ones, for me, are Kneeling on Sundays, Rosary* in place of *Matins or 3rd hour, spoken liturgy, and lack of Iconostasi.

While we don’t have Matins nor vespers at the parish I go to, we do have 3rd hour before liturgy. The Rosary is done before 3rd hour, not in place of.

i thought the Rosary was a Latin church tradition. i had no idea that the Eastern Churches say it as well.

 

[KyivAndrew]

i thought the Rosary was a Latin church tradition. i had no idea that the Eastern Churches say it as well.

I am Ukrainian Catholic and growing up, we all received rosaries during First Communion. Later on, some of our priests, in following HH JP2’s devotion to Fatima, instructed us as Ukrainian students actually to do rosary crusades for the conversion (Navernennia) of Russia (during the atheistic Soviet times).

On kneeling, I’ll be blunt. In certain Ukr. Catholic parishes, the entire parish kneels where it is mentioned in the Divine Liturgy. In parishes like mine, some stand (virni stoyat), others kneel and I guess it has just become accepted. The thing is, in the beginning of Ukrainian emigration to North America (1890-1914), many Ukrainian Catholics, from what they perceived to be discrimination against their rite by the Roman Catholics, left to become Ukrainian Orthodox. I’m pretty sure in Canada, half the Ukrainian Orthodox faithful can trace their roots back to Ukrainian Catholicism actually.

This all changed later of course with subsequent waves of immigration when differences were understood. I do recall as a young’n parishioners receiving Holy Communion kneeling on a rail. I then recall that in the late 70s all the sudden our parish bought an ikonostasis and the parish stood for Holy Communion (I think our Patriarch Josyp Cardinal Slipyj insisted on us returning to original product - his was an incredibly powerful voice after having to undergo repression in the Soviet Gulag until his release in 1963).

This is what comes to mind right now. God Bless.

 

[John_Larocque]

In the Canadian Museum of Civilization in Gatineau, Quebec, there’s a Ukrainian Catholic chapel from the 1920s. It’s said that the the architect of this church, and dozens like it, was a German Catholic prelate of some kind. The ikonostasis consisted of two painted icons - the Jesus, and Mary, both with a Western style…There weren’t many other icons on the wall (I was only in there for a few minutes) so can’t comment much else on it other than an initial “Western” impression.

Edit: It’s from 1907.

civilization.ca/cmc/media/press-releases/year-1996/contents-one-church-some-assembly-required-batteries-not-included

http://www.infoukes.com/ucpbaott/images/tour4-onuf-interior.gif

infoukes.com/ucpbaott/docs/tour4.htm

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I am Ukrainian Catholic and growing up, we all received rosaries during First Communion. Later on, some of our priests, in following HH JP2’s devotion to Fatima, instructed us as Ukrainian students actually to do rosary crusades for the conversion (Navernennia) of Russia (during the atheistic Soviet times).

is First Communion not a Latinization?

 

[Ghosty]

is First Communion not a Latinization?

In my experience it’s typically not actually “First Communion”, but rather what’s sometimes called “First Solemn Communion”. In our Melkite parish, for example, the children are Communed from infancy, but when they reach seven or eight or so, the kids of that age group are given special instruction on the meaning and profundity of the Eucharist and a special event is held for them. It’s likely a carry-over from the Latin practice of First Communion, but as in many things Melkite it is given a particularily Melkite spin, and does not eliminate the authentic Byzantine practice of infant Communion.

So, in our case at least, it’s less a true “Latinization”, and more a practice that grew up as a result of exposure to Western Catholic customs without replacing Eastern customs.

Peace and God bless!

 

[malphono]

i’ve been reading alot about this and I really wonder what are some of the latinizations that Eastern Catholics really would like to change?

There are plenty but I’ll spare the world my laundry list.

I’ve been looking around for Eastern Catholic churches in the US and the ones who have websites often have references to First Holy Communion (mostly I’ve found this to be true with the Maronite or Chaldean churches). i thought that was a Latin/Roman custom to separate the Sacraments of Initiation? Am I wrong or is this an example of a latinization?

Yes, it’s a latinization. The practice of infant communion has not been restored among the Maronites, and the same is most probably true among the Chaldeans as well. It’s interesting to note that among the Maronites, it was to have been restored in 1939, (yes, 1939) but upon the demise of PP Pius XI, Rome spoke otherwise and the rest is history.

All the while, though, one has to keep in mind that even where the practice of infant communion has been restored, it doesn’t mean that infants and toddlers communicate regularly. As far as I am aware, they don’t. They are communicated at Baptism, and once they reach the “first communion age” (six or seven), they are given instruction and are welcomed to communion on their own, which amounts to a “first communion” or sorts anyway.

As for the pews, in the US even the Greek Orthodox use them. This is not an aberration but rather simply an accommodation to the surrounding culture. It’s one item that I really care less about.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Typically, although these Eastern Churches use the term “First Communion”, they really mean First Confession and Solemn Communion. Typically, the Eastern Churches receive all three Mysteries of Initiation at once. The term “First Communion”, along with the style of dress and the family gatherings afterward have also been adopted - a “cultural latinization” of sorts, perhaps.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I’m part of a mission where I live to re-start a Ukrainian Mission. When it does get started we will mostly likely hold Divine Liturgy in a Latin Church or chapel which will of course have pews. Will this be a problem and will most people think that it is something that they won’t want if/when we start our parish (God willing!) ?

Erin, you might want to check out the webpage of this particular Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in my eparchy. When the church was constructed and built some 15 years ago, it was to much acclaim as it was to be done w/o latinizations and with the “old country” (actually Hutsul region of Ukraine) look. It’s a nice website. You can take a virtual tour of the church and I believe Father Galadza runs the show up there. You will note the absence of any pews in the church (all the rest of the churches in my eparchy, and there are quite a few, have pews. I have Ukrainian Orthodox in my family as well, and all their churches have pews as well.) In any event, take a tour. I think you may enjoy it and find it informative. God Bless!

saintelias.com/ca/index.php

 

[KyivAndrew]

Oh sorry. One correction per above because some people really know their stuff on this forum. The Church architecture is in the “Boyko”, not “Hutsul” style. My uncle is from Boykivshchyna - it is in the far west of Ukraine while Hutsulshchyna is in the Carpathian Mountains and somewhat more south. Not sure if this means anything to anybody, but I don’t want to get hit over my head for choosing the wrong word.

Andrew.

 

[John_Larocque]

Erin, you might want to check out the webpage of this particular Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in my eparchy. When the church was constructed and built some 15 years ago, it was to much acclaim as it was to be done w/o latinizations and with the “old country” (actually Hutsul region of Ukraine) look. It’s a nice website. You can take a virtual tour of the church and I believe Father Galadza runs the show up there. You will note the absence of any pews in the church (all the rest of the churches in my eparchy, and there are quite a few, have pews. I have Ukrainian Orthodox in my family as well, and all their churches have pews as well.) In any event, take a tour. I think you may enjoy it and find it informative. God Bless!

saintelias.com/ca/index.php

I have heard nothing but good things about St. Elias! I haven’t even considered formally switching to that eparchy, but lately I have been at several of Toronto’s churches including St. Peter and Paul in Scarborough (which faces West and has pews but looks traditional) and a more modern-looking Holy Eucharist closer to downtown Toronto has Western non-icons and stations of the cross in a section at the back. Holy Eucharist now celebrates Vespers! A practice they carried over from St Elias… All good! I haven’t hit any of the other T/O churches but those are within 25 minutes of where I live.

St. Elias BTW also adheres to the Julian calendar.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I have heard nothing but good things about St. Elias! I haven’t even considered formally switching to that eparchy, but lately I have been at several of Toronto’s churches including St. Peter and Paul in Scarborough (which faces West and has pews but looks traditional) and a more modern-looking Holy Eucharist closer to downtown Toronto has Western non-icons and stations of the cross in a section at the back. Holy Eucharist now celebrates Vespers! A practice they carried over from St Elias… All good! I haven’t hit any of the other T/O churches but those are within 25 minutes of where I live.

St. Elias BTW also adheres to the Julian calendar.

Hey, a Highway 410 brother! I actually think most of the parishes in the Toronto Eparchy retain the Julian Calandar. (It was St. Demetrius’ on LaRose that started bringing in the new in an outreach attempt, but most have stuck to Julian)

Yes, St. Elias’ Father Galadza is quite the spiritual man and used to teach us our theology at student summer camps as a kid. St. Peter and Paul, my old parish priest used to serve there before coming to my parish. The Ukrainian community I don’t think is growing in leaps and bounds on the west end though but to the east.

My cousin goes to Holy Eucharist on Broadview - pretty modern construction and a smaller parish but anyone who goes down the Don Valley can’t but help notice it.

St. Demetrius’ Church, as per above, on LaRose Street was actually set up to some extent as an attempt at outreach to non-Ukrainian speaking Greek Catholics and hence their more frequent usage of English in liturgies I believe. But it’s a big set-up there with an elderly care home and successful Ukrainian Catholic School. stdemetrius.org/

The big three in central Toronto are St. Nick’s on Queen Street (the Ukes short on cash had to buy an RC church in the 1950s but the interior is nicely done up). saintnicholas.ca/

There is also St. Mary Pokrova Church on Leeds Street by Ossington and Bloor and St. Josaphat’s (with its Uk. Catholic school) on Franklin Avenue built in the 50s. These were the big central 3 parishes: St. Nick’s, St. Josaphats, and St. Pokrova, though St. D’s on LaRose is growing.

Mississauga has quite the modern build-up on Cawthra St. at St. Mary’s.

The eparchy went through a lot when the now late Bishop Boreckyj was pushed to retirement in the Vatican’s hope at the time that a perhaps more “latin-friendly” bishop could assume the post as Bishop B. worked vigourously on the building of a Ukrainian Patriarchate. It was a sad and unnecessary internal conflict.

 

[babochka]

All the while, though, one has to keep in mind that even where the practice of infant communion has been restored, it doesn’t mean that infants and toddlers communicate regularly. As far as I am aware, they don’t. They are communicated at Baptism, and once they reach the “first communion age” (six or seven), they are given instruction and are welcomed to communion on their own, which amounts to a “first communion” or sorts anyway.

.

In my Ruthenian parish, infants receive Holy Communion at Baptism and continue to receive. This was also the way it was when I was a child, 30-40 years ago. I had no exposure to any other Eastern Catholic parishes and assumed that it was practiced in this manner everywhere. I only discovered a few years ago that the practice of Infant Communion had been discontinued in many places.

Elizabeth

 

[babochka]

Well, the Melkite church I went to this morning had pews. That is a complete Latinization. I think this is not good (although chairs for elderly and sick people is good).

Of course, pews in Latin Churches are a protestantinzation…

 

[Tradycja]

The Albanian Orthodox Church near me has pews and uses an ORGAN during Divine Liturgy. Go figure.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The use of organs by Greek, Albanian, and Antiochian churches is rather odd, since Byzantine chant is based on microtonal intervals (such as the note between F and F#).

Of course, the use of the full Gregorian calendar in at least Byzantine Churches is a Latinization. When the Ruthenians first came to the USA, they were all on the Julian Calendar.

Substituting Benediction and Stations of the Cross for Presanctified Liturgy during Lent, as certain churches did, would surely be a Latinization.