Laughter

[ManOnFire]

On one side, we have those, with free will and the means, who believe that the well-lived life is defined as one that is close to achieving 100% perpetual feelgoodism as possible (for self). But they don’t want to see that this is resulting in weaker, less sacrificial, anti-relationship people. On the other side, we have those who see the increased adherence to rules as necessary to keep people on the straight and narrrow, filled with romanticism and amazing depth, but sacrifice for others is not as outright hilarious as perpetual feelgoodism.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Technically all forms of humor come from some form of ignorance. That is meant to imply that there is something bad about humor, but rather that it results from situations in which the unexpected happens. This is true not just of slap-stick, but of high intellectual humor as well. As such, truth isn’t exactly the basis for laughter.

I think what we laugh at is largely brought about by social conditioning and experience. In so far as Laughter as an act is concerned, I tend to find that most acts of laughter tend to be triggered by what we “believe” or “think” to be absurd or irrational. The less absurd or irrational a thing is to us, the less funny it will be. We laugh at our human failings because it appears absurd to us, almost as if we know that we ought to be perfect. Thus I find that imperfection can be a cause for laughter because it is absurd. I often laugh at the absurdity of evil actions, although I don’t believe the actions themselves are funny. It is the absurdity that I laugh at. Irony can be quite funny as well. When we laugh at our existence, with a mutual respect, it makes us feel better.

The idea that we exist for no reason, that our objective moral value as persons is no more valuable than donkey doo-doo, or that the world popped out of nothing and now here I am with the world on my shoulders, is to me a very funny idea!! Because it is absurd to me; absolute insanity!!!.

 

[colmcille1]

I think what we laugh at is largely brought about by social conditioning and experience. In so far as Laughter as an act is concerned, I tend to find that most acts of laughter tend to be triggered by what we “believe” or “think” to be absurd or irrational. The less absurd or irrational a thing is to us, the less funny it will be. We laugh at our human failings because it appears absurd to us, almost as if we know that we ought to be perfect. Thus I find that imperfection can be a cause for laughter because it is absurd.** I often laugh at the absurdity of evil actions, although I don’t believe the actions themselves are funny. It is the absurdity that I laugh at. ** Irony can be quite funny as well. When we laugh at our existence, with a mutual respect, it makes us feel better.

The idea that we exist for no reason, that our objective moral value as persons is no more valuable than donkey doo-doo, or that the world popped out of nothing and now here I am with the world on my shoulders, is to me a very funny idea!! Because it is absurd to me; absolute insanity!!!.

Hi MindOverMatter,
I think that this is the famous release-valve angle you are getting at here.
We need this safety valve because, the alternative, to mentally engage with (in this instance) the latent threat of evil, is an horrific contemplation.
And yes, your second paragraph points towards that humour which can be constructed as savagely biting satire. Jonathan Swift comes to mind. He had to employ a dark and bitter laugh or else remain sullenly silent in the face of disgraceful injustice.
Thankfully, for mankind, he chose the former.
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[colmcille1]

On one side, we have those, with free will and the means, who believe that the well-lived life is defined as one that is close to achieving 100% perpetual feelgoodism as possible (for self). But they don’t want to see that this is resulting in weaker, less sacrificial, anti-relationship people. On the other side, we have those who see the increased adherence to rules as necessary to keep people on the straight and narrrow, filled with romanticism and amazing depth, but sacrifice for others is not as outright hilarious as perpetual feelgoodism.

Interesting angle, ManOnFire; do you think that it is as strictly divided as this or are there
possible grey areas?
God Bless,
Colmcille.

 

[fons_vitae]

Two points before I answer the OP’s questions:
First, in regard to “jokes about divinity,” recall that many pagan deities had some not only humorous but downright humiliating, in my opinion (i.e., they frequently made fools out of each other).

Second, Our Lord Himself is well known for His irony and puns: “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” (In Aramaic, gnat = galma and camel = gamla.)

Now, to get to your questions:

1.) Do you think that humor is an important part of spirituality? Why / Why not?
Yes, of course. It’s an important part of life in general, and “a merry heart doeth good like a medicine” (Proverbs 17:22).

2.) Do you think that Christianity could benefit from this lighter path towards Truth? Why / Why not?
Do you know many Christians? G. K. Chesterton says the greatest saints are distinguished by their levity.

3.)Why do (in your opinion) more pagan faiths find humor an important teaching tool of Truth than traditional Judeo christian religions?
There’s only two traditional Judeo-Christian religions–Judaism and Christianity. Pagan faiths of old (discounting “Neo-Pagan” movements for a moment) tended to graft their experience of Truth retroactively into their stories, it seems to me. An example that readily comes to mind would be the Greek philosophers teasing morals out of the amoral doings of their gods.

 

[Soulewolf]

Two points before I answer the OP’s questions:
First, in regard to “jokes about divinity,” recall that many pagan deities had some not only humorous but downright humiliating, in my opinion (i.e., they frequently made fools out of each other).

Second, Our Lord Himself is well known for His irony and puns: “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” (In Aramaic, gnat = galma and camel = gamla.)

Now, to get to your questions:

1.) Do you think that humor is an important part of spirituality? Why / Why not?
Yes, of course. It’s an important part of life in general, and “a merry heart doeth good like a medicine” (Proverbs 17:22).

2.) Do you think that Christianity could benefit from this lighter path towards Truth? Why / Why not?
Do you know many Christians? G. K. Chesterton says the greatest saints are distinguished by their levity.

3.)Why do (in your opinion) more pagan faiths find humor an important teaching tool of Truth than traditional Judeo christian religions?
There’s only two traditional Judeo-Christian religions–Judaism and Christianity. Pagan faiths of old (discounting “Neo-Pagan” movements for a moment) tended to graft their experience of Truth retroactively into their stories, it seems to me. An example that readily comes to mind would be the Greek philosophers teasing morals out of the amoral doings of their gods.

1.) interesting. Would you care to expand a bit? Such as how do you think humor brings you into a closer relationship with Divinity?

2.) i was raised catholic. There is a direct lack of humor in reference to “understanding”. If this is what makes a good saint, i do not see why it is not a more integral part of the Christian spirituality.

3.) Islam is also Judeo-Christian. Another distinct lack of humor in that belief system as well though. And yes, parable seems to be a very popular way of expressing Truth. Funny parables not so much : /

 

[ManOnFire]

well thats the base knowledge i guess. What i’m really asking is “Why” some religions teach with humor and others dont. What the benefit of learning about Divinity through humor might be. As well as the utility of humor when it comes to spirituality.

Anyone who wants to romance someone into learning something is best advised to do it through humor, to make learning fun. Teachers tried to do it with math. But as an adult who is being taught religion, I would expect that the constant attempts at humor would eventually become insulting. There’s only so much one can do. It would be like making school optional for kids, then having the challenge of making it fun enough that they would free willingly choose to go. At a certain point, religion, school, and mountain climbing involve hard work before there’s a meaning and a reward.

 

[ManOnFire]

Interesting angle, ManOnFire; do you think that it is as strictly divided as this or are there
possible grey areas?
God Bless,
Colmcille.

Yes, most of us are in the middle. I just accentuated the extremes for effect.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

HA HA!!

 

[Soulewolf]

Anyone who wants to romance someone into learning something is best advised to do it through humor, to make learning fun. Teachers tried to do it with math. But as an adult who is being taught religion, I would expect that the constant attempts at humor would eventually become insulting. There’s only so much one can do. It would be like making school optional for kids, then having the challenge of making it fun enough that they would free willingly choose to go. At a certain point, religion, school, and mountain climbing involve hard work before there’s a meaning and a reward.

i dont know. Buddhism has successfully kept laughter as a teaching tool for longer than Christianity has existed. It also (i believe) has the most followers of any religion.

 

[fons_vitae]

i dont know. Buddhism has successfully kept laughter as a teaching tool for longer than Christianity has existed. It also (i believe) has the most followers of any religion.

Actually, Christianity is still the top, with Islam just behind. Not that a numbers argument dictates truth, of course.

 

[fons_vitae]

Sorry about the delay… they just put new flooring in this weekend, so everything’s been in a mess.

1.) interesting. Would you care to expand a bit? Such as how do you think humor brings you into a closer relationship with Divinity?

We find humor in religion because humans are religious, I think. In other words, I would say that one who finds no joy or laughter in their faith (mine is Catholic) would most likely not find it much anywhere else. Said the eminent theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar: "Humor is a mysterious but unmistakable charism.”

2.) i was raised catholic.

Oh boy, here we go…

There is a direct lack of humor in reference to “understanding”. If this is what makes a good saint, i do not see why it is not a more integral part of the Christian spirituality.

Can you give a concrete example? I had stuffy teachers at my (Protestant) Christian school, but they didn’t cause me to deny the Incarnation of Christ. Your teachers could just be curmudgeonly–God knows there’s enough curmudgeonly atheists around.

3.) Islam is also Judeo-Christian. Another distinct lack of humor in that belief system as well though. And yes, parable seems to be a very popular way of expressing Truth. Funny parables not so much : /

To me, the term “Judeo-Christian” expresses two religious systems: Judaism and Christianity. Islam came afterward and refuses the Jewish Scriptures that both Judaism and Christianity hold dear in favor of their book, the Quran. Now if you said “Abrahamic religions” I would agree with you. Also, parables don’t necessarily correspond to a modern American sense of humor, you know… Show me the wacky hilarity of Odin or Ea or Yog-Suthoth, and we’ll have a discussion.

 

[Soulewolf]

Sorry about the delay… they just put new flooring in this weekend, so everything’s been in a mess.

We find humor in religion because humans are religious, I think. In other words, I would say that one who finds no joy or laughter in their faith (mine is Catholic) would most likely not find it much anywhere else. Said the eminent theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar: "Humor is a mysterious but unmistakable charism.”

no no not humor through religion, humor in religion. Specific parables that have the purpose of being funny but also hold truth.

Oh boy, here we go…

ouch dude. i don’t judge you, how about you don’t judge me?

Can you give a concrete example? I had stuffy teachers at my (Protestant) Christian school, but they didn’t cause me to deny the Incarnation of Christ. Your teachers could just be curmudgeonly–God knows there’s enough curmudgeonly atheists around.

well for one i’m most certainly not an atheist.
For two, has anyone ever laughed during a reading of scripture at mass? Not the sermon, or the announcements afterward, but the actual scripture reading?

To me, the term “Judeo-Christian” expresses two religious systems: Judaism and Christianity. Islam came afterward and refuses the Jewish Scriptures that both Judaism and Christianity hold dear in favor of their book, the Quran. Now if you said “Abrahamic religions” I would agree with you. Also, parables don’t necessarily correspond to a modern American sense of humor, you know… Show me the wacky hilarity of Odin or Ea or Yog-Suthoth, and we’ll have a discussion.

Well heres a story i heard a shaman tell once:

Coyote was hungry but try as he might he just couldn’t catch dinner. So he lay hungry on top of a cliff looking down longingly at Deer down below.
Suddenly out of the corner of his eye he saw movement. He glanced over to see a stone rolling down the hill right above Deer. Startled, Deer ran about 100 yards away, looked around and diddnt see any danger so he went back to grazing.
Looking back over at the top of the cliff next to him, he saw Cougar get up and silently move to a spot on the cliff above Deer again and roll down a second rock. Deer was again startled and ran, but not so far this time. Only about 20 yards.
Coyote was curious as to Cougars antics and decided to follow him (though still out of the way and unbeknown to Cougar). Cougar then rolled down a third rock, but this time Deer did not move. Cougar then tucked himself into a ball and rolled himself down the hill like a stone and Deer did not move. When he got to the bottom, right in the middle of the herd, he uncurled and pounced with a successful kill.
Coyote thought “Wow! I should try that!” and proceeded to roll 1… 2… 3… stones down the hill. When Deer stopped running from the stones Coyote curled himself up in a ball and sent himself rolling down the hill, Deer being unphased. As soon as Coyote landed in the middle of the herd, just like Cougar, he uncurled and promptly threw up all over himself.

This story is more than just funny. It gives greater depth into the anthropomorphised personalities of Cougar, Coyote, and Deer as well as life lessons such as thinking before you act eh? Understanding nature, and being one with it is a large part of Shamanic belief.

 

[fons_vitae]

no no not humor through religion, humor in religion.

You’re splitting hairs like the proverbial Scholastic here. Are you asking why there aren’t enough knee-slapping parables in the Gospels?

ouch dude. i don’t judge you, how about you don’t judge me?

Sorry, dude. It just sounded like the beginning of a conversion narrative. Continue…

well for one i’m most certainly not an atheist.

This is becoming readily apparent. May I ask what your religion is so that I can have a frame of reference?

For two, has anyone ever laughed during a reading of scripture at mass? Not the sermon, or the announcements afterward, but the actual scripture reading?

Well, I grin during a lot of the Mass–just not the lame announcements afterward. However, laughing during the Liturgy of the Word or the Canon of the Mass would be interpreted by 99.5% of the attendants as mockery of what was taking place. In other words, not laughing with, but at. If you went to your best friend’s wedding and let out a hearty guffaw when they made their vows, don’t you think that would come off as contempt?

Discordianism is the funniest religion of all because it’s designed as an elaborate joke that no one takes seriously.

Well here’]s a story i heard a shaman tell once:

Alright, I’m guessing animist or New Ager here. Am I getting warmer or colder?

promptly threw up all over himself.

If I were you, I’d start off with a stronger story. Just saying.

This story is more than just funny. It gives greater depth into the anthropomorphized personalities of Cougar, Coyote, and Deer as well as life lessons such as thinking before you act eh? Understanding nature, and being one with it is a large part of Shamanic belief.

Are you shamanic in beliefs? If so, I salute you for keeping your faith in an otherwise scientistic world.

 

[Soulewolf]

You’re splitting hairs like the proverbial Scholastic here. Are you asking why there aren’t enough knee-slapping parables in the Gospels?

yes

Sorry, dude. It just sounded like the beginning of a conversion narrative. Continue…

i like to get along with people with all different paradigms of thought. To me all of them are special an hold truth in them. Then i try to apply their truth to my life to better understand the universe we live in.

This is becoming readily apparent. May I ask what your religion is so that I can have a frame of reference?

i dont have one that can be described in terms we have. Completionist comes close. that is all religions have truth in them. The faults are more in interpretation than actual scriptures imho.

The closest i feel that comes to truth are shamanism and buddhism. Shamanism because its nature is such that it is based around personal experience (which is the point of such things as vision quests and sweat lodges).That is you go out and find God vs the more Abrahamic (wink) religions in which there is a more static objective truth. Though the funny thing about these experiances is that they are all described in very much the same way after one “meets” God, which me an a few others on this forum can vouch for.

And buddhism because it too is about the follower finding truth through otherwise paradoxical koans, meditation, and knowledge of the self. Buddhism teaches that you are God in your innermost being, and that god can be defined as the innermost essence or fabric in the metaphysical sphere that allows things (as essence) to exist. That is God is the creator, just in a different sense than abrahamic religions.

The word Namaste is a favorite of mine. It is a salutation meaning "the light (divine) inside me welcomes and honors the light inside you.

I find a lot of truth in the ideas of those who follow the Indigo Movement as well.

Well, I grin during a lot of the Mass–just not the lame announcements afterward. However, laughing during the Liturgy of the Word or the Canon of the Mass would be interpreted by 99.5% of the attendants as mockery of what was taking place. In other words, not laughing with, but at. If you went to your best friend’s wedding and let out a hearty guffaw when they made their vows, don’t you think that would come off as contempt?

if the meaning of the parable was to be funny as well as bring further insight into the nature of our universe, then that 99.5% would not be a problem. Wedding vows are not meant to be funny (at least most of them arent), but if they were, there would be no problem in laughing.

Discordianism is the funniest religion of all because it’s designed as an elaborate joke that no one takes seriously.

Actually many people take it seriously. Which is an oxymoron because discordianism is about Not taking life serriously, an learning to find an obscure order in the chaos that is Aeris.

Though if you think thats funny, you should check out the church of the subgenius. Especially X-Day.

Alright, I’m guessing animist or New Ager here. Am I getting warmer or colder?

I dont believe they define themselves. Labels are just labels.

If I were you, I’d start off with a stronger story. Just saying.

i dont believe the strength of the humor is important. all thats really needed is the knowledge that such stories exist and are an intricate part of some spiritual paradigms.

Are you shamanic in beliefs? If so, I salute you for keeping your faith in an otherwise scientistic world.

Science is actually pushing more towards much of what shamanism is about. As well as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and all the others. I believe that one of the greatest steps towards world peace will be when spirituality and science start acting as one instead of bashing heads all the time.

though i wouldn’t call myself shamanistic.

 

[fons_vitae]

Fellow forum denizens, feel free to jump in at any time.

 

[Soulewolf]

unfortunately i’m unsure if many people have something to contribute to the thread. I would much appreciate it if they did as this topic piques my interest. the more you can get in here the happier we will all be eh?

 

[fons_vitae]

i dont have one that can be described in terms we have…

That’s awfully convenient. There’s a lot of megachurches on my side of the planet that feel the same way.

Though the funny thing about these experi[e]nces is that they are all described in very much the same way after one “meets” God, which me an a few others on this forum can vouch for…

As they should: they touch the God’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity at least once a week. I aim to join them when the time comes.

The word Namaste is a favorite of mine. It is a salutation meaning "the light (divine) inside me welcomes and honors the light inside you.

That’s a common greeting in Hinduism too, isn’t it? Oddly enough, I like and somewhat get the Bhagavad Gita, but I don’t get your position at all.

Actually many people take it seriously. Which is an oxymoron because discordianism is about [n]ot taking life se[r]iously…

That’s the problem with making up your own religion… it usually involves arbitrary rules rather than wise ones.

Science is actually pushing more towards much of what shamanism is about.

You mean they believe magic is real? Actually, that could be real progress…

 

[fons_vitae]

Sorry if that seems a little curt… it’s late over here.

 

[Soulewolf]

That’s awfully convenient. There’s a lot of megachurches on my side of the planet that feel the same way.

shrugs

As they should: they touch the God’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity at least once a week. I aim to join them when the time comes.

Those who seek will find.

That’s a common greeting in Hinduism too, isn’t it? Oddly enough, I like and somewhat get the Bhagavad Gita, but I don’t get your position at all.

And what position might that be?

That’s the problem with making up your own religion… it usually involves arbitrary rules rather than wise ones.

I believe Aeris is an old greek god. Nothing really new about her. The Principia Discordia i think is fairly new though.

You mean they believe magic is real? Actually, that could be real progress…

magic can be explained through quantum theory. If the nature of quanta is based in probability and the brain also works on a quantum level, such things as superposition can explain many psychic phenomena (not that i believe in it myself, though i have some anecdotal evidence through personal experiance that is just plain weird), as well as such things as the law of attraction which i believe is the basis for most magic. All that needs to happen is a tiny (or large depending on how drastic the change is) nudge in probability.

I think a lot more work into understanding the quantum nature of the brain needs to be performed in order to understand this stuff a bit more.

i’m sure many people will disagree with my interpretation as they should as i prefer people to find their own truths. All i know is the law of attraction works. I’ve used it many times with a lot of success. It also explains prayer rather well too.