Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

[Bill_7154]

Drug and alcohol-induced vehicular homicide hurts no one else? Drug-induced crime hurts no one else? Robberies for legal Oxycontin hurt no one else? There is both spiritual and corporal damage.

We punnish people for drinking and driving. We punnish them more harshly for hurting someone when drinking and driving. Who is advocating not doing this with drugs? is LEAP advocating this? I haven’t seem them advocate this? Have you? What have you heard them say? Are you not curious why some Law Enforcement, dea, judges, etc are against drug prohibtion?

 

[Bill_7154]

If society desires greatly increased drug usage, de-criminalization is fine. Yet, even radical California rejected marijuana.

This is a theory that is not proven. Drug use may go up, it may go up a little, it may go up a lot.
But one thing is for sure, the mass murders would stop, the million sent to gladiator schools (jail) would stop. 2 TRILLION dollars would not go down the rathole over the next 40 years fighting a war that can’t even keep drugs out of max security prisons, let alone schools and street corners.

And the stigma would be removed, people involving themselves in treatment would increase. This has been shown to be true in countries like Switzerland.

If even a portion of the tax money from the war on drugs were diverted to treatment we would be much better off as a societyt getting people involved in treatment and potentially quitting…not to mention that cops could focus on crimes of violence and theft, and the mass murders because drugs are a black market industry would stop.

 

[Bill_7154]

I don’t know anything about the economics of crack cocaine, so I can’t address that.

If cigarettes were criminalized, they wouldn’t cost $10/cigarette because tobacco is too easy to grow, cure and cut. There are lots of places in the U.S. where you could grow it in cheaply and in relative safety, just as is the case with marijuana. Illegal tobacco would be a big business, but there would probably be fewer people using it than now.

And meth is even cheaper than crack cocaine.

What your not taking into account is the risks that people illegally growing tobacco would be subjected to. If it were a black market they would be subjected to jail time and since people involved in black markets can’t call the cops for protection there would be significant violence connected to the tobacco trade just like there was to the alchol trade under prohibtion and like is now connected to the drug trade under prohibtion.

 

[Bill_7154]

i’ll stay with Church teaching on this matter.

Good for you. How do you feel about the thousands that get murdered every year because of the drug trade under prohibtion, including innocent bystanders and police?

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

This nonsense started with the Harrison act…

forces.org/articles/files/whiteb/white03.htm

druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cu8.html

The process was Federal Law forced on the States and the move to decriminalize Marijuana is the first step in the State refusing to inforce Federal Laws forced on the States. It is the process in reverse of the Harrison act forced on the States.

The criminalizing of drug use is rediculous. People will use drugs with or with out laws. People drink with and without laws. Decriminalizing drug use would save money and save lives.

I of course agree with you and am familiar with the harrison act. What is interesting is that since then the same % of the population is still addicted to drugs (since before the harrion act when drugs first became illegal).

 

[Bill_7154]

Explain the difference.

There is a complaing victim in the ‘transaction’ of a robbery. There is no complaining victim in the transaction of a drug sale.

 

[Bill_7154]

Three decades in law enforcement taught me differently. Never saw anyone shot or stabbed in a robbery, but I surely saw much physical, spiritual and family damage through drug use. And, we are not speaking of OD deaths.

Again, in robberies you have complaining victims based on the transaction between the 2 people (the rober and the robie).

Drug use, and in particular drug abuse is harmful. But the war on drugs isn’t changing drug use and is creating much more harm on top of the harm already created by drug use.

Go listen to what LEAP has to say on the matter if you don’t believe me. After all they are police and are on the front line (as well as judges, etc). You have been subjected to much propaganda promoting the war on drugs, as has virtually all of the us society.

Why are people so resistant to exposing themselves to information that is contrary to what they have been propagandized to believe? If LEAP is out there creating a pack of lies point them out.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I, personally support the de-criminalization of Marijuana but do not see this happening any time soon.

But it IS happening, and has been for a while. In the early 80’s when my grandmother was dying, terminally ill with cancer and on chemo…there were 5 people in the US who could use mj for medical reasons. Her dr advocated she use it to treat the nausea caused by chemo.
Now in my state it’s decriminalized up to one ounce. It’s also decriminalized in other states. The practices and laws have changed tremendously since the early 80’s with respect to mj, as has the citizens view on how it should be dealt with.

At this time I became a criminal to procure mj as her doctor recommended she use, as did my dying grandmother also become a criminal as she wasted away, dying weighing 60lbs.

Since my family was so messed up I was the one who would take off school to take my grandmother to her appt’s for chemo (none of her sons or my mother would do this, I’ve mentioned growing up in a disfunctional family- to put it extremely mildy).

This was the start of my believing in mj should be legal for patients. As my learning grew so did my postion on mj and eventually, after exposure to what LEAP had to say, to include all drugs.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

You like drugs. I don’t. Simple.

Well I also don’t like drugs. LEAP nor I advocate drug use. It’s about ending the violence associated with the failed drug war, ending the waste of trillions of dollars. Maybe then as a society we could actually make some improvements with treating people who use and especially abuse drugs. This is what I would like to see, less drug use. And I think a great step towards that happening would be ending drug prohibtion and focusing on treatment.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

That’s because you are not Catholic. Alcohol is a necessary ingredient in Christian liturgy. Weed and meth are not.

Calls to the police for help come far more often where the underlying issue is alcohol abuse much moreso than drug abuse. Domestic violence, bar fights, etc, etc.

Ask any cop how many pot smoking parties have turned violent compared to alcohol parties.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

A drug task force Lieutenant that I worked for claimed that the problem with education is that you cannot educate a drug dealer out of making $250,000 tax-free per year.

Of course you can’t. But if drugs were illegal this person could not compete with the major global drug companies anymoreso than can some random person selling other drugs that are also sold by major drug companies.

So these people would be put out of business overnight essentially.

And the education would be focused on the people who use drugs, as the education for tobacco harm is focused on the users.

can you educate the alcohol manufacturer ceo’s out of making 150 million a year?

can you ‘educate’ a tobacco ceo out of making 150 million a year? lol

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

IAgain, I do not like drugs because I have observed and documented on their destructive influence for 30 years. Nothing you present will overturn a career’s worth of negative experience with the effects of drugs on society. Simply giving up and redefining drug crime as a disease or other social problem does in no way reduce the trauma that it produces.

Neither am I dissuaded by the often disingenuous objections to the costs of incarceration. Incarceration saves lives. Who cares what it costs? Compared to the massive extent of federal, state and local waste, it is a drop in the bucket.

I agree with your first paragraph as a human, a Christian, a Catholic, a compassionate person, and as a former drug counselor.

Your second paragraph: How much time have you spent listening to the arguments? Especially listening to them from law enforcement, judges, etc? (I bet it’s ‘a drop in the bucket’ compared to the propaganda you have been exposed to that is in support of the war on drugs over the years). If you don’t give equal time to hearing both sides of the argument, how can you really make a accurate and rational decision when it comes to the war on drugs?

2 Trillion dollars and tens of thousands of people murdered is no way a ‘drop in the bucket’.

We know the drug war has failed. Why do you refuse to consider other possible alternatives to try and address the serious drug problem we have in this country?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

You are the one arguing for legalization. How else is one supposed to take that? Do you mean that you hate drugs, but want them legalized anyway? How does that make sense?

This is EXACTLY what I mean. I also hate people staying up all night and getting drunk. But I don’t want that made illegal either.

It makes sense because the war on drugs has failed. Tens of thousands have been murdered because drugs are ILLEGAL, not because they are harmful. Removing the profit motive from people who use violence as a main part of their business model (the mafia, various other gangs involved in drug trade) will get them out of the business overnight.

This way we could control drugs. We could control who they are sold to (drug dealers don’t discriminate against minors, either as customers or as workers- and drugs are easier for kids to get than alcohol because of this fact).

There wouldn’t be stigma about drug use and people could start working with their doctors, etc on trying to not be addicted. Switzerland provides an excellent example of this happening.

LEAP, nor I am for drug use. We all think it’s harmful and destructive to individuals, those connected to them, those that come into contact with them, etc. But the drug war has not changed this. Ending the drug war will stop the violence and theft (cigarette addicts don’t steal to support their habit because it’s legal and therefore affordable) so society would be subjected to much less violence and theft.

And since law enforcement doesn’t do anything to help addicts not be addicts, by getting them out of the equation (except when there is something that happens that harms someone like an assault, etc- and not mearly the possession or use of it- if drugs were treated exactly like alcohol were treated in other words) as a society we would have a better chance of actually having an impact on drug and use and abuse.

And again, murders by the thousands would STOP as they happen because drugs are a black market business so robbers target them since they can’t call the cops and need to be their own police force (and obviously they are not going to make their own private prisons to put people in to punnish them- they kill them- they can risk just giving them a beating, but they have to be sure that the person won’t come back to kill them later if they do this as punnishment).

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

YThe rest of this is all academic and means nothing as a practical matter. We can delve into studies until we drop dead. They all conflict and you and I pick the ones we agree with.

Except (I assume and believe) that you have not exposed yourself to studies (in general that support decriminalization) and arguments made by LEAP for ending the drug war.

So, in effect, you have ‘made up your mind’ without being exposed to different views in debth on the matter. And you haven’t listened to them with an open mind (I’m assuming again).

If you do that at least you will be making an INFORMED opinion.

On behalf of the tens of thousands of people who will be murdered in the coming years because drugs are illegal and a black market business, on behalf of all the innocents that will be murdered because they are caught in the crossfire, and on behalf of the police that will be murdered…and on behalf of all these people’s children…I pray that you find it within yourself to explore the issue with an open mind. I pray that you find the strength to listen to those from LEAP who worked the front line on the issue… and have valuable information and insights to share with the public… in order to end the crime and violence that exists because of drug prohibtion.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[CopticChristian]

I haven’t written it yet. I see a cut and paste in your post, but who wrote it?

Again, I do not like drugs because I have observed and documented on their destructive influence for 30 years. Nothing you present will overturn a career’s worth of negative experience with the effects of drugs on society. Simply giving up and redefining drug crime as a disease or other social problem does in no way reduce the trauma that it produces.

Neither am I dissuaded by the often disingenuous objections to the costs of incarceration. Incarceration saves lives. Who cares what it costs? Compared to the massive extent of federal, state and local waste, it is a drop in the bucket.

Po,

So you are an empiricist. There is empirical knowledge and Reason. For your reasoning mind the book was written by Stanton Peele, PhD.

amazon.com/The-Truth-About-Addiction-Recovery/dp/0671755307#_

The Truth About Addiction and Recovery [Paperback]
Stanton Peele (Author) (Author), Archie Brodsky (Author), Mary Arnold

 

[CopticChristian]

I of course agree with you and am familiar with the harrison act. What is interesting is that since then the same % of the population is still addicted to drugs (since before the harrion act when drugs first became illegal).

Bill,

Praise the Lord for common sense prevailing. It is difficult to have people accept what is. Reason sometimes gets put on the back burner over this emotionally charged issue. Everyone knows someone or was involved with someone who…etc…

Many people do not know that with the Harrison Act it was declared that Addiction is not a disease and physicians could not treat addiction as a disease, The Supreme Court ruled AA is a religion, and people have still been brainwashed into belieiving that addiction is a disease.

 

[TimeEntrance]

That’s because you are not Catholic. Alcohol is a necessary ingredient in Christian liturgy. Weed and meth are not.

There is a reason few to no intellectuals are law enforcement or military, Po. I say that as a former Marine.

The United States is not a Catholic theocracy and what Catholics may believe about wine does not absolve Catholics of making a logical contradiction.

What can be said of illegal drug use potentially harming the body can be said of alcohol.

I attend AA, NA, and CA meetings. No reason for me to remain in the closet in this thread. But I can tell you that you are completely wrong about your views with respects to your exclusion of alcohol consumption. A lot of deaths in the United States listed as resulting from liver or kidney failure actually are sequentially linked to alcoholism.

Furthermore, having trained at a boxing gym (many teenagers were members), and having taken a mandatory health class at my former community college, which required walking or jogging on a treadmill, I can tell you I’m in better shape than most young Americans including teenagers.

Back at my apartment I have a childhood friend staying rent free with me. He’s an alcoholic, unemployed, and an ex-convict, and his health visibly looks to have gone down hill from his alcohol consumption.

Alcohol is not necessarily a benign substance that has never left any victims in its wake. In fact, alcohol is the main contributing factor to the mortality rate on Pine Ridge, South Dakota the massive Indian reservation (probably geographically It the size of some small European nations). Right here in the United States, Pine Ridge has the second highest mortality rate in the Western Hemisphere, falling second behind Haiti.

Latin American leaders are calling for a global re-thinking of the U.S. led war on drugs. Brazil has the second highest consumption of cocaine in the world, falling behind the United States. And that means Brazil has a major domestic market for cocaine. Those Rio drug gangs are fighting over local city turfs and not for export markets to the United States. The Mexican middle-class are also notorious consumers of cocaine.

news.yahoo.com/u-led-war-drugs-questioned-u-n-220226481.html?_esi=0&&ugccmtnav=v1%2Fcomments%2Fcontext%2Fbc2e78d0-6f92-3fc9-8617-37245350d1c6%2Fcomments%3Fcount%3D20%26sortBy%3Dlatest

If I remember correctly, Cardoso is an internationally recognized intellectual and the only sociologist to ever become a president of a country (U.S. politics are monopolized by people with law degrees).

An influential group of former Latin American leaders including Brazilian ex-President Fernando Henrique Cardoso has openly advocated decriminalization of some drugs as a way to reduce violence.

The small, relatively prosperous South American nation of Uruguay has gone the furthest, sending a bill to Congress last month that would allow the state to grow and sell marijuana.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation#Alcoholism

The population on Pine Ridge has among the shortest life expectancies of any group in the Western Hemisphere: approximately 47 years for males and 52 years for females. The infant mortality rate is five times the United States national average, and the adolescent suicide rate is four times the United States national average. Members of the reservation suffer from a disproportionately high rate of poverty and alcoholism.[60] By 2011, a gang culture formed among Native American teenagers on the reservation.[87] Young residents leave the reservation for larger cities. When they return to the reservation, they bring gang culture with them.

Alcoholism

Because of historic problems with alcohol use by its members, the Oglala Sioux Tribe has prohibited the sale and possession of alcohol on the Pine Ridge Reservation since its creation in 1832, with the exception of a period the 1970s when on-reservation sales were briefly tried. The town of Whiteclay, Nebraska (just over the South Dakota-Nebraska border) has approximately 12 residents and four liquor stores, which sold over 4.9 million 12-ounce cans of beer in 2010 (13,000 cans per day), almost exclusively to Oglala Lakota from the reservation. This contributes to widespread alcoholism on the reservation, which is estimated to affect 85 percent of the families.[88] Many children are born suffering from Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder, which causes them lifelong problems and limits their lives. In addition, tribal police estimate that 90 percent of the crimes are alcohol related.[88]
**
Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder**

Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) is the term used to describe a spectrum of anatomical structural anomalies, and behavioral, neurocognitive disabilities that result when a developing fetus is exposed to alcohol in the womb. The most severe manifestation within this spectrum is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS).[89] Because of the high rate of alcoholism on the reservation, one in four of its children are born diagnosed with either FASD or FAS.[90]

 

[CopticChristian]

There is a reason few to no intellectuals are law enforcement or military, Po. I say that as a former Marine.

The United States is not a Catholic theocracy and what Catholics may believe about wine does not absolve Catholics of making a logical contradiction.

What can be said of illegal drug use potentially harming the body can be said of alcohol.

I attend AA, NA, and CA meetings. No reason for me to remain in the closet in this thread. But I can tell you that you are completely wrong about your views with respects to your exclusion of alcohol consumption. A lot of deaths in the United States listed as resulting from liver or kidney failure actually are sequentially linked to alcoholism.

Furthermore, having trained at a boxing gym (many teenagers were members), and having taken a mandatory health class at my former community college, which required walking or jogging on a treadmill, I can tell you I’m in better shape than most young Americans including teenagers.

Back at my apartment I have a childhood friend staying rent free with me. He’s an alcoholic, unemployed, and an ex-convict, and his health visibly looks to have gone down hill from his alcohol consumption.

Alcohol is not necessarily a benign substance that has never left any victims in its wake. In fact, alcohol is the main contributing factor to the mortality rate on Pine Ridge, South Dakota the massive Indian reservation (probably geographically It the size of some small European nations). Right here in the United States, Pine Ridge has the second highest mortality rate in the Western Hemisphere, falling second behind Haiti.

Latin American leaders are calling for a global re-thinking of the U.S. led war on drugs. Brazil has the second highest consumption of cocaine in the world, falling behind the United States. And that means Brazil has a major domestic market for cocaine. Those Rio drug gangs are fighting over local city turfs and not for export markets to the United States. The Mexican middle-class are also notorious consumers of cocaine.

news.yahoo.com/u-led-war-drugs-questioned-u-n-220226481.html?_esi=0&&ugccmtnav=v1%2Fcomments%2Fcontext%2Fbc2e78d0-6f92-3fc9-8617-37245350d1c6%2Fcomments%3Fcount%3D20%26sortBy%3Dlatest

If I remember correctly, Cardoso is an internationally recognized intellectual and the only sociologist to ever become a president of a country (U.S. politics are monopolized by people with law degrees).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation#Alcoholism

Time,

and this all boils down to “choice”. People can choose to be healthy or not. They can choose to consume beverages that have Carbohydrate/Protien/Fat or they can consume Mountain Dew with sugar and rot their teeth.

People can choose to use a white powder to make a cake or choose to snort a white powder up their nose.

People can choose to do almost anything and regulating it and making it illegal is not going to affect that choice much as can be seen with the use of drugs.

Making alcohol illegal caused nothing but crime and the consequences due to the choice of drinkiing were greater because the alcohol could have been poison…now the alcohol is not poison…it is just alcohol.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,
Praise the Lord for common sense prevailing

CopticChristian,
Another interesting aspect around drug laws is how the prohibition of certain drugs was steeped in racism of certain ethnic groups. I’m not up to speed on the specifics, maybe you are?

Let us pray that the murdering of thousands upon thousands of people because of drug prohibtion stops if the populace comes to its senses. Let us pray that there is a change in public policy where police, who do not stop people from using or abusing drugs are removed as the arm of government charged with addressing the ‘drug problem’ and instead actual people who can actually assist people in using and abusing drugs less are put at the forefront to address the issue. It’s a shame that people (police) who view drug users as ‘scum’ are removed from the forefront of the issue and replaced by others (doctors, social workers, therapists, etc) who actually view drug users and abusers as human beings and not ‘pieces of s…’ or scumbags. Let us pray that the populace comes to it’s senses and places professionals who have compassion and empathy for those afflicted with drug abuse issues are put at the forefront of addressing the issue.

It is so obvious to me that the drug war is a complete and utter failure. I mean, come on, after 40 years and 2 TRILLION dollars spent on this war and they can not even keep drugs out of ONE single MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON! If, after all this time, and all that money spent, they can’t even keep drugs out of maximum security prisons, how can anyone in their right mind believe that there is any hope that drugs can be kept out of the hands of children, off of the streets? And it’s a crying shame that since criminals, who are in charge of the drug market, decide who works for them and who their customers are (and they often PREFER to have children work for them since there is less penalty when they are caught, plus the simple manipulation of a child’s mind…not to mention that they have no scruples when it comes to age limits and their customers. This is why it is easier for children to get ahold of drugs than it is for them to get ahold of alcohol.

If drugs were treated more like alcohol is, and the possession and sale to those above 21 would not be a crime, but only the behavior of some under the influence if creating a disturbance or assaulting someone, our society would be much safer and it would be much harder for children, or anyone under the age of 21 to get ahold of drugs, as it is for them to get ahold of alcohol. And the sellers, controlled and monitored by the government, would be held to standards. As it stands now killers set the standards around drug sales, etc. Information about the safe use of drugs could be made available to customers just like is the case with all legal drugs that are distributed by pharmacies. Narcan shots (the shots that parametics carry that inject into people overdosing on opiates) that save people’s lives, could be distributed with anyone purchasing an opiate with instructions on how to use it. This would save lives.

If legal, people would also be less hesitant to tell their doctors if they were using drugs, or possibly drugs could only be made available by prescription so that doctors know which of their patients are on what drugs. (of course people would play games with any system to some extent, but this is the case now with tons of different things, and it’s not a reason to make everything that people play games with illegal).

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

CopticChristian,

And the murders and home invasions and armed robberies would stop because the cost of the drugs would be affordable just like alcohol and cigarettes. It would be like importing coffee with whatever import taxes are levied on them. And whatever taxes are put on the product like alcohol and cigarettes. But alcohol abusers and cigarette abusers manage to get by, shameful as it may be that they are in such a situation, without robbing people and putting people’s lives at risk by doing robberies. They can support their habits through work, or through begging. They are cheap enough that people share with one another without much of an issue, even the homeless who rely on begging for their money.

And then we could actually focus on the ‘drug problem’, rather than pouring trillions down the toilet with nothing to show for it as far as results are concerned.

I would like to say it’s surprising to me that poeple on this forum have not invested time into learning what the law enforcement members of LEAP have to say on the issue, but it’s not. People have been indoctrinated through government propaganda over the past 40 or so years to believe that the war on drugs is actually good and helpful and is actually necessary and doing something to address the ‘drug problem’. All it is doing is getting thousands murdered and millions jailed, it’s not preventing use and abuse of drugs. And it’s costing a ton of money.

If the drug war was stopped, and even a fraction of that money were diverted to treatment, thousands would stop being murdered because the black market of drugs would be ended. Tens or hundreds of thousands of robberies would stop because drugs would be affordable like cigarettes and alcohol. Women would stop prostituting themselves to support drug habits and the spreading of aids would lessen.

It is surprising to me that people do not seem to be able to separate the difference between:
drug prohibition (and the ending of it) and drug use and abuse

And how, despite it being explained that the black market of drugs is the direct cause of thousands upon thousands of murders over the years and really has nothing to do with the use of drugs (similar to alcohol, some might murder under the influence…but sellers, buyers, and robbers of alcohol are not murdering each other en mass in the streets…while innocents are also caught in the crossfire. And how people do not seem to realize how much time this would free up for law enforcement to address crimes where there is a COMPLAINING VICTIM like there is with domestic violence, rape, murder, assaults, robberies, car jackings, bank robberies, etc… crimes where there is a complaining victim.

I’m against mass murder. Therefore I am against drug prohibtion. It’s as simple as that really. And I believe that Jesus is also against mass murder so I feel quite comfortable as a Catholic stating that the drug war is harmful, it does not slow or prevent drug use/abuse, it makes it easier for kids to get drugs than alcohol, and it wastes trillions of dollars that could be used to actually HELP PEOPLE.

And I have provided a site where LAW ENFORCEMENT is advocating for the ending of the drug war, yet people ignore it as if it were a site of drug addicts advocating for the ending of the drug war. It’s a crying shame. I pray that people become open minded enough to listen to the words of current and former dea agents, judges, police chiefs, undercover narcotics officers, even fomer policy makers around the drug war itself in order to get at least a little nibble of a balance in information compared to the indoctrination they have gotten from government propaganda over the past 40 years as it relates to the drug war.

I want the murdering and robbing to stop. I believe the Jesus also wants murdering and robbing to stop. Ending the war on drugs will substantially impact both of these things.

God Bless,
Bill