Law School, LSAT....Opinions?

[Yeoman]

FWIW, just because someone has a law degree doesn’t mean they must work at a law firm. There are plenty of people that I know with law degrees that do other things. For example, one can work in real estate, such as part of an investment group. The group can make the attorney part of the investment group, rather than paying for separate legal services. Some attorneys might be put in charge of the real estate office of a large national firm. Attorneys may be hired to head various departments at local universities, municipal entities, etc.

With a law degree, on should not necessarily focus on being an employee. There are far, far more opportunities out there, but one has to have the initiative to find or create those opportunities.

Don’t fool yourself in regards to that. Its a very common assertion for people to tell a prospective law student that a law degree is useful for many things, but the only thing it is truly useful for is practicing law. Now, not all lawyers are in law firms, there are in house lawyers, solo practitioners, and lawyers who work for the government in one way or another, but if a person has a law degree, what they will find is that their employment opportunities with the degree are largely in the practice of law (to the extent they presently exist).

Amongst practicing lawyers, the “a law degree is useful for many things” line is largely disrespected. In the practice, most lawyers will tell you that the only reason to obtain a law degree is to practice law. And once you have have a law degree, the type of practice you end up in isn’t always your free choice, as most new graduates have to take the jobs offered to them. After practicing only a few years, they tend to be stuck in the exact field that they are in, and moving from one practice area to another is very difficult. And a law degree is actually a deterrent to many employers hiring a person, outside of the immediate field, as people dislike lawyers generally and tend to be suspicious of lawyers who are seeking employment outside of the practice.

It is of course possible to point to lawyers who have found employment outside of the practice, but a person should be extremely careful about drawing conclusions from that. Did the law aid them in finding a career they wanted or were they fortunate refugees from the law? Why are they in another field, was it that the law opened doors for them to a broad horizon or was that an open door out of a crashing plane they parachuted out of?

Again, read the thread down in Spirituality, and you’ll see at least four separate stories of lawyers facing these problems and how they handled them, or not.

Finally, what I’d note to prospective law students is that they should find lawyers who seem to be doing what they want to do, or at least actual working lawyers, and get to know them and their work before going to law school. With law school admissions down 50% right now, I wouldn’t trust anything a law school put out in the way or recruiting information, particularly as they need students to continue to exist and law professors themselves tend to be refugees from the practice, rather than participants in it. You have to get to know actually lawyers and actual law work in order to get an inside view of what it entails. You may love it, you may hate it, but you will not know it until you actually get inside in some fashion. You cannot get inside by way of a casual contact, as lawyers will not tell outsiders what the practice is like, generally, as it is not in our open economic interest to do so, particularly in an era in which there is a lawyer glut, high career dissatisfaction, and increasing competition for clients.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Don’t fool yourself in regards to that. Its a very common assertion for people to tell a prospective law student that a law degree is useful for many things, but the only thing it is truly useful for is practicing law.

The only people that would be fooling themselves are the people that I used as examples. I know dozens of such people. The latest one is a real estate broker with his JD that is part of a three-person investment group that purchased a multi-million dollar industrial property. He gave up working for a law firm years ago. He has the legal expertise and the real estate license, thus can handle all aspects of deal.

A close personal friend of mine has both a law and real estate firm. His real estate firm is so big that he doesn’t even need the law section anymore. He also buys a lot of properties being foreclosed on, since he has the expertise to navigate through the legal mess with the lenders.

And, FWIW, any degree is worth something. I’m no longer practicing in any of the several fields I majored in. Yet simply having that degree will allow me to get hired at various firms that require a minimum of a four year degree, and also allows me to gain clients simply because a great many of my peers do not have such a degree.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

It is of course possible to point to lawyers who have found employment outside of the practice, but a person should be extremely careful about drawing conclusions from that. Did the law aid them in finding a career they wanted or were they fortunate refugees from the law? Why are they in another field, was it that the law opened doors for them to a broad horizon or was that an open door out of a crashing plane they parachuted out of?

I know real estate brokers that run offices for various real estate brokerages that are international in scope that are attorneys, and the reason they have that position is specifically because of their law degree. They are not hired by the firm to practice law, as the firm already has a legal department.

 

[Yeoman]

The only people that would be fooling themselves are the people that I used as examples. I know dozens of such people. The latest one is a real estate broker with his JD that is part of a three-person investment group that purchased a multi-million dollar industrial property. He gave up working for a law firm years ago. He has the legal expertise and the real estate license, thus can handle all aspects of deal.

A close personal friend of mine has both a law and real estate firm. His real estate firm is so big that he doesn’t even need the law section anymore. He also buys a lot of properties being foreclosed on, since he has the expertise to navigate through the legal mess with the lenders.

And, FWIW, any degree is worth something. I’m no longer practicing in any of the several fields I majored in. Yet simply having that degree will allow me to get hired at various firms that require a minimum of a four year degree, and also allows me to gain clients simply because a great many of my peers do not have such a degree.

I fully agree about any degree being better than none, and in today’s world having some degree is almost a necessity.

But, while your examples are fine ones, and I have no doubt you have many more, I doubt that these are, by and large, occupations to which the doors were opened because the individuals had law degrees. Some may very well have been, but they sound more like people with JDs who were able to make the switch to something else through self drive, with their education no doubt helping. A person might be able to use their legal connections to start work of that type themselves, in which case the JD certainly would have assisted them in that endeavor, but again that’s a bit different than a JD simply opening doors for them. If a person was expecting to be able to do that other type of work, they’d be better off pursing some other degree rather than hoping to land the correct law job that allowed them to transition out of the law job.

What I think is sometimes missed is that it is not the case that people with JDs can generally walk into any of these types of occupations and expect the JD to open doors for them. It will occasionally, but it will also often close the door for them on some occasions. I certainly wouldn’t expect to be able to walk into a real estate firm, or a brokerage firm, etc. tell them I have a JD, and expect them to hire me for that reason.

We have to keep in mind as well here that law is a flooded market. In many areas there are many lawyers out of work, and or working less than they’d prefer. New law graduates are often not finding jobs (again, one such individual is in the thread below). People who are not accustomed to the legal field as it is believe that a JD is a ticket to employment, which was once very much the case. Now it is not, and on top of it there’s a high attrition rate for newly minted lawyers.

Convincing people of this is very difficult to do, and there is still a very common belief that a JD opens doors and if you get a JD you will always have lucrative work. Those days are over. A law degree only entitles a person to take a state bar, and taking a state bar only entitles a person to practice law. Finding a job, once that is done, is another step yet.

Which may or may not be a reason to do any one thing, and which is the danger of threads such as this. A person might go to law school in tough legal times, graduate, pass the bar, and absolutely love it. For that matter, they might think they want to practice in one area, and then find they like practicing in some other, which may be purely by accident. As none of us (probably) actually know the original poster on this thread, any advise to pursue a career in law, or not, is dangerous really, and the poster shouldn’t make a decision based on the thread.

Rather, what I’d come back to is this. Talk to people who are actually doing what you think you want to do, and see what they tell you after you get to know them. That’s the key. That way, you’ll learn what people whom you know actually know, rather than just that information conveyed over the net, which may not be tailored for you. Put another way, a person who knows lawyers who are prosecutors may be misleading a person who wants to be a business lawyer, or a person who knows entrepreneurs who were lawyers, might be as well, or for that matter, a person who based his knowledge on lawyers based on the careers of Castro and Lenin (both lawyers) would give a pretty skewed view of what any lawyer actually does. The real key is to know and be able to trust people who are actually doing what you want to do, and get to know what it is that they really actually do.

 

[Yeoman]

Going back to the original question (which may be moot now, due to the passage of time), I’d wear typical business attire, as law is a profession. You’ll look like a professional.

And don’t get too nervous about the LSAT. I know that people freak out about it, but frankly the angst over it is overdone. I’m not saying don’t prepare (although I’ll admit I didn’t bother to) but if you have the type of mind that is suitable for law school, your preparation should be complete but should be done in the knowledge that your natural God given mental gifts will carry you through. Sort of a “trust” type of recommendation, I guess.

Still, check out the actual work if you can. A lot of people think they have a passion for the law, and do, but are disappointed in the work. You might not be, but inform yourself.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

What I think is sometimes missed is that it is not the case that people with JDs can generally walk into any of these types of occupations and expect the JD to open doors for them. It will occasionally, but it will also often close the door for them on some occasions. I certainly wouldn’t expect to be able to walk into a real estate firm, or a brokerage firm, etc. tell them I have a JD, and expect them to hire me for that reason.

It is my opinion that if anyone is going for an advanced degree to simply get a job, they should reconsidered their future. Advanced degrees are expensive, and big money is not simply handed to someone because they have that advanced degree. They will have to make it happen one way or another. People that are hired for big money will be quickly fired if they don’t deliver.

FWIW, I am considering becoming an attorney. I was even scheduled to take the LSAT, but an international adoption came through that conflicted with the test time. The reason I would like to have it is not to practice law, but rather to expand the expert witness part of my practice. Anyone that has a JD in my profession is in huge demand for expert testimony, and make the same amount of money as attorneys when they testify (a few hundred dollars per hour).

 

[Yeoman]

It is my opinion that if anyone is going for an advanced degree to simply get a job, they should reconsidered their future. Advanced degrees are expensive, and big money is not simply handed to someone because they have that advanced degree. They will have to make it happen one way or another. People that are hired for big money will be quickly fired if they don’t deliver.

FWIW, I am considering becoming an attorney. I was even scheduled to take the LSAT, but an international adoption came through that conflicted with the test time. The reason I would like to have it is not to practice law, but rather to expand the expert witness part of my practice. Anyone that has a JD in my profession is in huge demand for expert testimony, and make the same amount of money as attorneys when they testify (a few hundred dollars per hour).

Just a note on hourly rates (given that most folks who read this will not be attorneys). Hour rates are deceptive, but outsiders consider them a lot.

Most lawyers who bill hourly capture probably about 60% of their time, rather than 100%. My supposition is that this is probably true for other hourly professions as well.

Most attorneys do not bill “a few hundred dollars per hour”. There are a large variety of rates, but I’ve seen the lows for litigation down around $80/hour in some places. Insurance carriers in quite a few places dictate hour rates and they fall in between $125/hour to $190/hour. They also heavily audit attorney bills and routinely cut from them, and there’s many things they will not pay for.

Some lawyers in other fields bill $200/hour and up. The most I’ve seen was about $600/hour in patent litigation. I’m sure a person can find other examples.

Also, the day when starting lawyers were paid “big money” is really over, to the extent that it actually ever existed. The idea that they were is partially fueled by the ABA’s fascination with “Big Law” and the constant reporting on the starting wages of big law associated. In the real world, starting salaries vary by region. A few years ago, at a party, a lawyer whom I"m related to, who is a solo practitioner, was relating to me his annual gross, which matched that of his city’s average, which was about $45,000. And he wasn’t an inexperienced attorney by any means. My gross at that time was about double that, which seemed to me to be pretty good, but which is way below what Big Law associates were paid right out of school. Having said that, local associates here didn’t start anywhere near that either, and everyone here was making a lot less than those exceptions, which are the ones people think of, but which aren’t the national norm. I’m not complaining about that, and I think I do okay is the low six digits, which is much more than many people make. My point is, rather, that a lot of lawyers bill as much as double of what they take home, considering overhead, and there’s only so many hours in a week. The law doesn’t pay anything near what people think it does.

As for your situation, well, I don’t know what it is, so you may very well be correct as to you, and I certainly hope that all goes well for you your consideration on this, and most particularly in regards to the adoption.

 

[lerapt78]

This is not a particularly serious question…I just need some opinions, because I really want to make a good impression.

Okay. So the other day, I was at my college, registering for fall classes. My advisor informed me that after having spoken to my professors, and looked at my grades, she has decided to recommend me for a very prestigious internship in the Attorney General’s office. “We only send the best of the best. And you are the best of the best,” She said. I was astounded, and am still in shock. For the first time in my life, I actually feel accomplished and like things are looking up.

With that in mind, I have seriously been considering law school. I have musculoskeletal issues, and it would be foolish of me to go into a physically demanding profession like policing. I’ve come to terms with this, and realized that not only do I score extremely well in law, I also have a passion for it.

So I called a local law school and will be going for a tour next Thursday! My question is this: What is appropriate attire for this meeting? I don’t want to overdo it and look overdressed, but I also do not want to look frumpy. Any ideas? Please pray for me! I also will be taking the LSAT soon!!

I was always taught that it’s better to be overdressed than underdressed. How you dress can say a lot about your attitude toward those around you, especially with regard to how much respect you have for the people and institutions you visit.

Don’t know if you’re a man or woman, but if you’re just taking a campus tour, I would suggest:

Man: chinos, collared shirt, casual blazer. Or perhaps a lightweight suit cut from a more casual cloth.

Woman: dress or long/knee-length skirt with either a casual jacket or dressy cardigan. Low heels. You can always dress up an outfit with a silk scarf if you don’t want to wear a formal suit.

If you will be meeting with a university official (and not just a student who volunteers to give tours), then I would go with a full suit.

Of course, clothes should be neatly pressed, shoes shined, and hair kept neatly coiffed. I would recommend pulling your hair back in a neat chignon/twist if you’re a woman. Jewelry should be minimal and understated.

I’m not trying to be a downer, but please do a lot of research on the current state of the legal profession and think VERY carefully about whether this is for you. Basically there is a glut of lawyers, comparatively few well paying legal jobs, and you’re all but guaranteed to graduate with six figures or close to it of debt (not including your undergraduate debt.)

Unfortunately, I have to agree - it’s a difficult job market for lawyers these days, and a lot of graduates are getting out of school with high loans and no job perspectives.

OTOH, I wouldn’t want to discourage you if this is a career you feel called toward (and considering the sort of legislation that’s been made in the last half century, it wouldn’t hurt to have more Catholic lawyers ). My suggestion would be to take advantage of any and every opportunity for networking that comes your way. Take the internship if it’s offered to you, and look for firms that would allow you to shadow/volunteer. Don’t worry about getting paid at this point; I’d say that making contacts and knowing someone who can recommend you for a job upon graduation is even more important than your actual LSAT score and GPA.

Good luck!

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Just a note on hourly rates (given that most folks who read this will not be attorneys). Hour rates are deceptive, but outsiders consider them a lot.

Speaking only for myself, the rates would be $250-$350 per hour, with a minimum of four hours. That’s the rate I get hired at now, but the work is very sporadic given there is a “go-to” guy that has his JD. That JD makes a big impression in a courtroom as far as qualifications go.

 

[Yeoman]

Speaking only for myself, the rates would be $250-$350 per hour, with a minimum of four hours. That’s the rate I get hired at now, but the work is very sporadic given there is a “go-to” guy that has his JD. That JD makes a big impression in a courtroom as far as qualifications go.

What’s the field of courtroom expertise, if I may ask?

 

[kozlosap]

Good luck! There are many different types of positions that lawyers are able to accept. My daughter was not interested in a job where she would have to bill a certain numbers of hours each week. She works as one of two corporate councils for a firm that provides music for film and television. She writes contacts and negotiates with all of the big studios. It is a great job for a young attorney not interested in court appearances, but more business. I’m praying for you to find your nitch!!!

 

[Captain_America]

As a catholic I will be praying for you and for your doing good in the LSAT.
But as a lawyer I have to tell you to be careful. If you want to go to a law school you have to go to a tier 1 school. Keep in mind law school is expensive and you will come out with a huge debt. Student loans are a real nightmare and truth is most recently graduated lawyers do not get High paying jobs. Unless you are coming out of Harvard, standard, NYU or similar schools your chances of getting a high paying job are close to 0. It is a difficult field and there are too many lawyers. So be very careful.

As to dressing, sincerely, the way you dress is the least important. Your LSAT score is what is going to determine everything. I personally would not go to any law school until you have your LSAT score. Again you want a school that is in the top tier 1 and those won’t do anything with you until you have a score.

And let me repay do not, please DO NOT go to a nonABA school or a tier 2 school.

Good stuff here. Old Captain America was accepted at a Tier 1. . . but kept running into lawyers who wanted to run from the law. He set up meetings with about a half dozen lawyers and a couple of judges to discuss law as a career. . .and found only ONE who actually enjoyed it!

To me that spoke volumes.

You really have to make sure about it, before you pull the trigger. It could be a costly mistake. I think to do law, you need to set the “I love the schoolwork” stuff or the “wow, constitutional law is SO fascinating!” and “I want to help make justice in the world” fantasies aside. . . along with the old, unstable idea that “law will let me do anything.”

Go to law school if you want to be doing law work.

I’m pretty convinced America has plenty of lawyers.

 

[Yeoman]

Good stuff here. Old Captain America was accepted at a Tier 1. . . but kept running into lawyers who wanted to run from the law. He set up meetings with about a half dozen lawyers and a couple of judges to discuss law as a career. . .and found only ONE who actually enjoyed it!

To me that spoke volumes.

You really have to make sure about it, before you pull the trigger. It could be a costly mistake. I think to do law, you need to set the “I love the schoolwork” stuff or the “wow, constitutional law is SO fascinating!” and “I want to help make justice in the world” fantasies aside. . . along with the old, unstable idea that “law will let me do anything.”

Go to law school if you want to be doing law work.

I’m pretty convinced America has plenty of lawyers.

Sage advice. You did what few do, which is to really investigate it.

Generally, I fear that recommendations like yours (and mine) are basically ignored as a rule. The information is out there for those looking at law school, and there’s a flood of warnings about investigate first, but how many do? Beyond that, how many prayerfully reflect on the question. I did not, and I’m paying for it now, and will my whole life. You aren’t saying “don’t do it”, but if you are going, go for the right reason.

I’d add again that its really easy to find examples of lawyers who didn’t go into litigation, and have careers they like, but it’s also easy to find lawyers who took any job they could find as they had to, and that determined their career direction. Of the collection of litigators I know well enough to know their early histories, exactly one wanted to be a courtroom lawyer. The rest fell into it. That doesn’t mean that they all hate it or like it (I don’t know), but a person really needs to prayerfully consider this career direction and understand what they intend to get into.

 

[dixieagle]

Nothing wrong with showing up in a suit & tie. Remember, you are looking into a professional career. Praying for you to do well on the LSAT. I know you’ll do fine. God bless.

Except she is a “twenty year old female”, according to her profile.