Law vs Grace & John 3:16-18

[RaiseMeUp]

John 3:16 - 18 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So a Pentecostal Pastor was preaching that once we believe in Christ, we no longer will sin because the Spirit lives in us. And that now that Mosaic Law has been fulfilled, Faith alone saves us. He went on to say that even if we were to commit murder that there is no condemnation (but also explained we wouldn’t because we are in Christ) and therefore would not go to Hell. And that the Church has been false teaching to millions of people because they believe they have to try to stay right with God and not sin but in reality (His argument) we don’t have to try because the Spirit leads ( which I think he was targeting the Catholic Church ) because he was saying that millions of people are being mislead and taught wrongly about traditions, sacraments, and etc. Any other views on this that I can present???

 

[RaiseMeUp]

Also, that no one goes to hell as long as they believe in Christ. This brings me to their teaching on assured spot in Heaven, and once saved always saved. Very confusing…

 

[bzkoss236]

Also, that no one goes to hell as long as they believe in Christ. This brings me to their teaching on assured spot in Heaven, and once saved always saved. Very confusing…

It also is ridiculous and doesn’t make sense with what the Bible says (of which they claim to hold so dear).

They are essentially saying, it doesn’t matter if you life your entire life separate from God, as long as at one moment in your life that you said “Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior”, and maybe prayed the “sinner’s prayer”.

Doesn’t make sense, and is entirely heretical.

Think of it this way. A parent says to their child, as long as you’ve said that you love me once in your life, then I don’t care what you do. You can go do drugs, have sex with whomever and however you want, you can murder, and even say you hate me after and for the rest of your life, but I’ll still let you come home and I’ll pay all your bills and even pay for those drugs!

Doesn’t make sense…

 

[JRKH]

The Pastor is oversimplifying the matter to the detriment of those listening.
The problem is even contained within his statement as related by you…He said:
1)once we believe in Christ, we no longer will sin because the Spirit lives in us.
2) And that now that Mosaic Law has been fulfilled, Faith alone saves us.
3) He went on to say that even if we were to commit murder that there is no condemnation (but also explained we wouldn’t because we are in Christ) and therefore would not go to Hell.
I separated the statements for clarity…
Statements one and two are (essentially) correct…Though our ability not to sin is imperfect so we may very well fall from time to time as we seek to grow in holiness.
The real problem comes in in statement three…
The fact is that if statement one is true then one CANNOT commit murder - for if they do then they have sinned and the spirit is not in them.

Actually St John goes into this in some detail in his first letter. Consider just one verse from 1 John 2:4
He who says “I know Him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him"

So - even though the pastor tries to talk his way out of it…He has mad a blatantly non-biblical claim for one who commits a murder while claiming to “know Him” (believe in Christ) is a liar…
By extension anyone who teaches a gospel such as you describe above…is a false teacher.

Peace
James

 

[RaiseMeUp]

His argument is that once the Spirit is in us that we will not sin. Oh he also used this, Ephesians 2 : 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. That our spirit is fully righteous with Jesus in Heaven - also that when Jesus died he took on all sin. He took sin to Hell after his death - hence the fact we are dead to sin - (again this is his argument) and then he ascended into Heaven. So the “inner man” is fully righteous and dead to sin… I understand a little about what he says but I dont agree.

 

[Beryllos]

I searched Catholic Answers for “once saved always saved” and found this great answer:
Ask an Apologist: How can we respond to “once saved, always saved”?
It contains lots of links to articles on this very common question. Take a look at those articles.

 

[RaiseMeUp]

amazon.com/The-Alpha-Series-John-Glenn/dp/1425958168

This is the series they are teaching here. As much as I dislike it and disagree with it, I have to complete it. The guy who wrote this series, John Glenn, actually comes here and teaches it. But this is HIS theory with HIS teachings. And they put him on such a pedestal. The pastor says that right now in the world, theres a 3rd awakening happening. That others like Lither, and Calvin tried but because they were man, they failed. But the spirit is responsible for this “3rd awakening”…

 

[pablope]

His argument is that once the Spirit is in us that we will not sin. Oh he also used this, Ephesians 2 : 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. That our spirit is fully righteous with Jesus in Heaven - also that when Jesus died he took on all sin. He took sin to Hell after his death - hence the fact we are dead to sin - (again this is his argument) and then he ascended into Heaven. So the “inner man” is fully righteous and dead to sin… I understand a little about what he says but I dont agree.

To sharpen you pencil on Catholic teachings…here is a journal written by protestant converts…chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

 

[pablope]

amazon.com/The-Alpha-Series-John-Glenn/dp/1425958168

This is the series they are teaching here. As much as I dislike it and disagree with it, I have to complete it. The guy who wrote this series, John Glenn, actually comes here and teaches it. But this is HIS theory with HIS teachings. And they put him on such a pedestal. The pastor says that right now in the world, theres a 3rd awakening happening. That others like Lither, and Calvin tried but because they were man, they failed. But the spirit is responsible for this “3rd awakening”…

Hmm…at the end of the class…this is what I would ask:

I would say…I came across this passage:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

And the example of St. Paul here:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

So it got me thinking…to whom did you submit your teaching and get apostolic approval, similar to what St. Paul does in Gal 2:2, and in light of what 1John4 v6 says?

I would like to see how he responds…

 

[steve_b]

John 3:16 - 18 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So a Pentecostal Pastor was preaching that once we believe in Christ, we no longer will sin because the Spirit lives in us.

One would have to ask, why in the world would Jesus, preparing for His return to heaven, give His apostles the power to forgive and retain sins, if all one has to do is believe in Him and one won’t sin anymore?
RNU:

He went on to say that even if we were to commit murder that there is no condemnation (but also explained we wouldn’t because we are in Christ) and therefore would not go to Hell. And that the Church has been false teaching to millions of people because they believe they have to try to stay right with God and not sin but in reality (His argument) we don’t have to try because the Spirit leads ( which I think he was targeting the Catholic Church ) because he was saying that millions of people are being mislead and taught wrongly about traditions, sacraments, and etc. Any other views on this that I can present???

There is absolutely no reason to teach and warn anybody about the following if it wasn’t true. That “pastor” is actually calling Jesus a lier.

All scripture is inspired by God. Which means the following was inspired by the Holy Spirit. And not just the HS but by Jesus [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16)

Notice where these people go when they die?

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης *arsenokoitēs] *10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…defile a man

 

[RaiseMeUp]

So when he says religion is spiritual bondage and controlling lies, is he incorrect?? Is Catholicism a Religion or a personal relationship with the Lord as they say Christianity is (even thought Catholicism is Christianity)? Because I was starting to get uncomfortable and annoyed about what he was implying about the Church ( but tried to remain respectful of his opinion and obedient to the program ) But what exactly is religion? Isnt it our belief and constant worship to our Creator?? Because they do not consider their Christianity a religion and that the Church’s traditions and such are products of Religious repetition and bondage

 

[fhansen]

John 3:16 - 18 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So a Pentecostal Pastor was preaching that once we believe in Christ, we no longer will sin because the Spirit lives in us. And that now that Mosaic Law has been fulfilled, Faith alone saves us. He went on to say that even if we were to commit murder that there is no condemnation (but also explained we wouldn’t because we are in Christ) and therefore would not go to Hell. And that the Church has been false teaching to millions of people because they believe they have to try to stay right with God and not sin but in reality (His argument) we don’t have to try because the Spirit leads ( which I think he was targeting the Catholic Church ) because he was saying that millions of people are being mislead and taught wrongly about traditions, sacraments, and etc. Any other views on this that I can present???

The Church teaches that, if we were perfected, living in the Spirit exclusively, we would not need the Law because we’d fulfill it without reference to it. But since that is most unlikely, since we can even turn fully away from God after once having turned to Him in faith, after being “under grace”, we still benefit from the knowledge of the Law. The Law is always in effect:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous" Rom 2:13
The difference is in the source of our obedience: either by grace (the right way, by the power of God) or by our own, futile, efforts (the wrong-and ineffective-way).

To say that we could commit murder and still remain saved but that saved people wouldn’t do so anyway is confused, convoluted; it’s to place the cart ahead of the horse. We either remain in Christ and within His will or we turn from it. He didn’t force Adam to remain in Him and He won’t force us to do so now.

God’s very purpose is to restore His creation to authentic righteousness, not to ignore sin/unrighteousness. It’s not merely to forgive sin, but to enable us to ‘go, and sin no more’. That’s the New Covenant, whereby He promises to do a work in us.

 

[sousley]

So when he says religion is spiritual bondage and controlling lies, is he incorrect?? Is Catholicism a Religion or a personal relationship with the Lord as they say Christianity is (even thought Catholicism is Christianity)? Because I was starting to get uncomfortable and annoyed about what he was implying about the Church ( but tried to remain respectful of his opinion and obedient to the program ) But what exactly is religion? Isnt it our belief and constant worship to our Creator?? Because they do not consider their Christianity a religion and that the Church’s traditions and such are products of Religious repetition and bondage

Terms like religion, tradition, etc. are unqualified in and of themselves. Too often, their quality is determined by the presenter, this perspective being delivered as a definition. For example, if this statement is made: Traditions are bad and keep us in bondage. What traditions?

A: Traditionally, I thank the Lord for my meal before I shovel it in my mouth, is this bad?
B: Traditionally, I throw stones at the neighbor kids for 2 hours every Tuesday, is this bad?

“Tradition” isn’t the problem (or religion, church, etc) because the terms can’t qualify any virtue by themselves; so we must be wary of statements like “religion is bad”.

Obedience to the Church’s teachings is not bondage, it is liberation. It removes much personal responsibility for declaring our sense of moral certitude. Consider the pro-life/pro-choice advocates that “use the bible” to defend their positions.

We pray the “Our Father”, the LoTH, daily readings, etc. (as the Church asks) so that when we pray our personal intentions, we can remain rooted on the “one foundation” of the Church of God. It helps remove the dangers of getting off-track. If we throm away all the Church asks (like not first praying the Pater Noster, etc.), we can soon enough find ourselves praying for things like winning the lotto, or getting that promotion so I get more toy-money even though the long hours means I must give up Mass.

We can’t get sucked into those “religion is bad, tradition is bad” statements as they tend to try to coax us into a false sense of freedom.

 

[bzkoss236]

So when he says religion is spiritual bondage and controlling lies, is he incorrect?? Is Catholicism a Religion or a personal relationship with the Lord as they say Christianity is (even thought Catholicism is Christianity)? Because I was starting to get uncomfortable and annoyed about what he was implying about the Church ( but tried to remain respectful of his opinion and obedient to the program ) But what exactly is religion? Isnt it our belief and constant worship to our Creator?? Because they do not consider their Christianity a religion and that the Church’s traditions and such are products of Religious repetition and bondage

All of Christianity (including Catholicism) is both a religion and a relationship with God. Some do not like to acknowledge it because they equate religion with “man-made” and “works salvation”, which is an entirely bogus accusation given the definition. A religion (in general) is a belief system with worship and rituals.

 

[Beryllos]

So when he says religion is spiritual bondage and controlling lies, is he incorrect?? Is Catholicism a Religion or a personal relationship with the Lord as they say Christianity is (even thought Catholicism is Christianity)? … But what exactly is religion? Isn’t it our belief and constant worship to our Creator?? …

The word “religion” might mean different things in different contexts, but I think the preacher means “organized religion.” He is saying it is a bad thing, but clearly that is false.

As we read the Acts of the Apostles, or the letters of Paul, we find indications of the early church as an organized religion. Let’s look at 1 Corinthians, a letter which Paul wrote to correct and instruct the early Christian church in Corinth:

• In 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, Paul describes the Eucharist, where we gather as a community to remember the Last Supper and our redemption through Jesus’ sacrifice. That passage begins with “For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you,” which is an indication of the importance of tradition in the church. By tradition, I mean the act of receiving, carrying, and passing on (spreading) the Good News which began with Jesus Christ.
• In 1 Corinthians 12:12-31, Paul describes the church as the Body of Christ. In verse 28, we read that the community was served by apostles, prophets, teachers, and leaders. In other words, it really was an organized community.
• 1 Corinthians 14 is all about members working together to build up each other in faith, and to build up the church (the community of believers).
• In 1 Corinthians 16:19-20, Paul sends greeting from other churches to the church in Corinth, which indicates that a worldwide (“catholic”) church was being formed.

So I would say organized religion, or Catholicism in particular, is more than our personal (individual) belief and worship. It includes a community, leadership structure, and tradition which are essential to teach us and support our personal faith, and to build up faith in others.

 

[RaiseMeUp]

So there is different severity of sins? Because he says sin is sin. Murder is sin, pornography is sin, lying is sin… Sin is all equal…?

 

[fhansen]

So there is different severity of sins? Because he says sin is sin. Murder is sin, pornography is sin, lying is sin… Sin is all equal…?

All sin is equal in the sense that it’s opposition to God’s will, but it’s different in terms of gravity. And this is why there are sins which lead to death (mortal sins), according to St John, and sins that are less serious (venial sins).

 

[sousley]

All sin is equal in the sense that it’s opposition to God’s will, but it’s different in terms of gravity. And this is why there are sins which lead to death (mortal sins), according to St John, and sins that are less serious (venial sins).

Another great example is the Matthew 5: 21-26. Jesus is here describing different severity levels of sin, each with a correspondingly more severe punishment.

 

[steve_b]

So when he says religion is spiritual bondage and controlling lies, is he incorrect??

sheesh!!!

Religion is ones method of practicing their faith. In the case of the Catholic, Jesus started the Catholic Church, and the Catholic faith. So the CC being Divinely instituted, with Jesus giving all His promises to His Church, this is the only true faith, true religion, true Church… The Catholic Religion therefore is the expression of the true faith and the promises and legacy of Jesus.

As far as “spiritual bondage” and “controlling”, I would say

When Paul wrote to the Church of Rome, the first time he mentions faith, he complements the Church of Rome on their “obedience of faith”. Because their faith has been reported all over the world. Romans 1:1-12 The last time Paul mentions faith, he closes with the obedience of faith.Romans 16:25-26 Obedience is a good thing

Your friend is obviously hooked up to the wrong wagon. And being against the Church Our Lord established, he’ll have some explaining to do someday.
RMU:

Is Catholicism a Religion or a personal relationship with the Lord

It’s not either / or but both
RMU:

Because I was starting to get uncomfortable and annoyed about what he was implying about the Church ( but tried to remain respectful of his opinion and obedient to the program ) But what exactly is religion? Isnt it our belief and constant worship to our Creator?? Because they do not consider their Christianity a religion and that the Church’s traditions and such are products of Religious repetition and bondage

Is this group oneness pentecostal? If so they don’t believe in the trinity which means they don’t have valid baptism, and aren’t even christian. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/trinitarian-baptism

 

[steve_b]

So there is different severity of sins? Because he says sin is sin. Murder is sin, pornography is sin, lying is sin… Sin is all equal…?

He calls himself a “pastor” ? Obviously he hasn’t read the following [1 John 5:16-17 (Douay-Rheims Bible, 1 John Chapter 5) Note, there is sin one can pray about and God forgives the sin. Those are the light sins. As John said all sin is evil but there is sin that isn’t mortal. So which sins are mortal?

Here’s a list of mortal sins. They are mortal because of their consequences if one dies in them.

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ,ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…defile a man

Where do all these souls go who die in these sins? As scripture says…Hell