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Brendan_64
Guest
The separation of Church and State is a secular notion aimed at reducing the power and influence of Christ’s Church on Earth, and marginalising it. This notion has it’s roots in the ‘Enlightenment’.
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The separation of Church and State is a secular notion aimed at reducing the power and influence of Christ’s Church on Earth, and marginalising it. This notion has it’s roots in the ‘Enlightenment’.
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One_point
Guest
To the contrary my new "e"cquaintance, gay marriage is the reason for these harsh laws, believe me! People in parliaments and other such places are watching the short journey that has happened in the west from simple decriminalization of homosexual acts and unions to now the demand for full marriage rights and adoption of children and slowly intruding on churches and religions and society’s right to freely teach and proclaim the wrongfulness of these acts…this has much of the world outside the West horrified, contrary to what you may assume.
Please understand, It’s not so much the desire to jail or punish people who do this as it is the fear that the West is using this as a route to introduce these developments into other countries. So if Transparency International or Obama talks to Africans about jailing or criminalizing gays, that is not what they hear. What they hear is “Give us an opening to impose things you find abominable on you, because you are weak and poor and we are rich and strong and can force you to adopt our own values and ways of life whether you like it or not.” This is why the seeming rush to forestall these developments before someone even has a chance to suggest it as a real possibility.
I know it seems I’m taking a side instead of just telling you as it. But the propaganda tools in the West are capable of spreading much misinformation so that when someone tells you the actual experience of the places they are talking about, it seems biased. As a person living in this continent, I can tell you that I experience the same deal of frustration with a lot of western media when it comes to reporting on Africa as I do when it comes to reporting on the Catholic Church. Sometimes, people just assume things about other groups and go ahead and project their own feelings on a situation and then report it as news, like they do with Pope Francis. I have learned to completely ignore any piece of news about the Church or African culture unless I its from a source with a genuine handle of things on the ground. The Church has an excellent grasp of issues in every culture because she’s a strong presence in them, not an outsider, but some news outlets impose their own ideological fights on other cultures.
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weller2
Guest
The problem is that homosexuality is being treated worse than adultery. The former is called “intrinsically disordered”, the latter is not. I hear about “gay lifestyle” all the time, but what was the last time someone in the church condemned “adulterous lifestyle”? And damage done to children and the society at large by adultery is much worse than damage done by homosexuality, as impacts of the latter are largely confined to gay communities.
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One_point
Guest
Difference is no one is running round telling people that adultery is a good thing and that adulterers cannot help but commit adultery. Do that and see if the church does not highlight the wrongfulness of this sin as well. The reason for the emphasis on the gay lifestyle and abortion is the propaganda that it is not bad, not sinful, not immoral. someone has to give the true account.
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SMGS127
Guest
Clearly you have not heard of Ashley Madison?
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GraceSofia
Guest
Because homosexual sex is always sinful. Sex between a man and woman can be moral and good (in marriage), or not (adultery). I hear probably more about adultery in my parish.
Everything has a ripple effect. I personally know a family that was destroyed by the husband/father deciding he was homosexual and abandoning his wife and daughters. Those daughters are now adults with serious issues with their families.
Yes, or making “Adultery Pride” parades, or asking for special rights, or wanting to go into schools to tell children that adultery is good.
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markomalley
Guest
Have you never heard that divorced and remarried are excluded from Holy Communion? There are plenty of doctrinal references…and, oh, by the way, there are no excuses that justify adultery. Follows is a survey of a small portion of the Catechism dealing with adultery:
1650 Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery"158 The Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was…
1756 …There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.
2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire…
2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union.
And as far as “when was the last time I heard…”
Well, I’m trying to think of the last time that any form of immorality was preached on from the ambo in my parish.
The only reason why the hierarchy is saying anything public against the HHS Contraceptive Mandate is because it violates “religious freedom”, not because artificial contraception is a grave moral evil. I cannot think of ANY time I’ve ever heard the evils of artificial contraception preached.
The only reason the hierarchy is saying anything public against homosexuality is because of the legal changes and concerns that, at some point, the Church may be required by law to acknowledge it. Again, I cannot think of ANY time I’ve ever heard a homily talking about homosexual conduct as evil. (Ironically, I do recall after that drug dealer Matthew Shepard was killed, hearing about the evils of “homophobia”)
So just because you don’t “hear” something doesn’t mean the Church doesn’t teach it. It just means that the pastors are reticent to talk about it, preferring to talk about being “kind” and “nice” and “loving” and “accepting” instead.
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One_point
Guest
Don’t care to. There’s no movement to say that adultery is a good thing like the gay and abortion brigades.
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SMGS127
Guest
Sure there is, if we define “adultery” as it’s supposed to be defined in Catholicism, which is to say any sex outside the context of marriage. Look at the promotion of contraception at youngsters; look at the rampant sexualization of our culture. Look at how much high schoolers and college students are encouraged to have sex, simply if they want to. Look at how divorce is modeled as an option for anyone in a marriage that isn’t satisfying their needs, and how remarriage is heavily encouraged. All of these are examples of adultery.
And in the very specific American culture definition of “adultery,” Ashley Madison (a corporation, not a person) is all over pushing cheating on your spouse as a “normal” way of exerting sexual frustration in a way that somehow doesn’t harm your marriage because it’s secret
.So we should definitely be focusing on the entirety of adultery (which same-sex physicality falls under by the way), not just little chunks of them.
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Corki
Guest
Howmosexuality is not being called a sin yet adultery is always called a sin. How is that treating homosexuality “worse than adultery”? Now if you mean that people treat living a homosexual lifestyle worse than continuing in an affair, yes it is worse.
Both are called gravely sinful. Homosexual relationships are “intrinsically disordered” because the acts themselves are always and everywhere wrong. An adulterer is conducting acts that would not be sinful if done with his/her spouse. That’s the “intrinsic” part.
We hear about this all the time from the Church. There are frequent calls for men and women to be faithful in their marriages. What we don’t hear about is a political discourse on the evils of adultery. That’s because everyone accept that adultery is wrong and their is no need to convince anyone of this, only to remind them. For some reason, the same does not apply to living a homosexual lifestyle. Some people try to delude themselves and others that it is not wrong. So the Church is more vocal about it. (that and the fact that no news outlet would be reporting the Church’s speaking out against adultery. “In other news, water is wet”)
Only if you think that normalizing homosexual acts is not damaging to children or to society. The homosexual lifestyle going unchallenged has grave impact on parents, on children who are in school and on the laws we live under. That’s a pretty significant societal impact/harm.
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Catolico65
Guest
The separation of Church and State is a secular notion aimed at reducing the power and influence of Christ’s Church on Earth, and marginalising it. This notion has it’s roots in the ‘Enlightenment’.
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Catolico65
Guest
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Catolico65
Guest
In God’s eyes homosexuality is worse than adultery.
After all, unwed couples that committed adultery under the law had to pay a fine but homosexuals, regardless of their married status, were stoned.
The Bible clearly tells us that homosexuality is a punishment for being arrogant before God, which is very dangerous given that this is what caused Lucifer’s fall. Furthermore, homosexual relations can never fulfill, that is why homosexuals can never satisfy their sexual desires and have many parties if not orgies. Homosexual sex causes spiritual desolation and hastens personal corruption. This is why homosexuals need so much community support because their consciences are seared. May God help them.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
There is no end to the paradoxes you can get yourself in once you start trying to make fine distinctions in the severity of sins, especially if you pick and choose which bible verse support which comparison. The Church only makes one firm distinction that I know of, and that is between venial and moral sins. All other gradations are suspect.
Where is that made so clear? And I don’t think you really meant to say “homosexuality is a punishment”, did you? Homosexual acts are a sin, not a punishment for sin.
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Catolico65
Guest
With all due respect you are entitled to your own opinion.
However, I will defer to the Bible. BTW, for your edification Romans I:
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While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. 24Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.v 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.w 26Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions.* Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.*
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Corki
Guest
No, I wouldn’t say they are suspect. After all, it’s pretty clear that the Church teaches that missing Mass on Sunday and murder are both mortal sins but they aren’t indistinct.
There are also some sinful acts that can be regularized:
Fornication can be regularized by the marriage of the two parties. Adultery can even be regularized with the death of one spouse and the subsequent remarriage of the other.
Homosexual acts can never be regularized. That is not to say that they are the worst possible sin but that it’s appropriate to treat them differently.
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weller2
Guest
Over there, what is it that you have in the ground – hydrocarbons, uranium, rare earths?
Here’s what will happen in a few years. A Western corporation will come and ask to buy the stuff in the ground. You will have a left-wing government, who will say that the stuff in the ground should benefit everyone in the country, so no thanks. Then, their term will end and you will have election. In this election, you will get to choose betwen a pro-nation, pro-gay candidate and a pro-corporation, anti-gay candidate. The only reason you’re being fed this anti-gay hysteria today is to make you vote for a pro-corporation candidate against your own interests in the next election.
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GraceSofia
Guest
Heh. Yes, I learned about it when it was in the news for Singapore (I think) not letting them in.
Yes, definitely large chunks of the secular society are okay with premarital and extramarital sex. But Catholic teaching is not although there are some voices asking for divorced and remarried people to be able to receive the Eucharist. I guess the difference is that in general people agree that cheating on a spouse is fundamentally wrong and don’t want to change morality to say it’s a good thing, but whereas just a short time ago in general people agreed there was something fundamentally wrong with homosexual sex, there is a loud movement that wants society to change morality and to say it’s a good thing. And in the Western world, the Catholic Church is the biggest obstacle to bringing about this new change in morality.Sure there is, if we define “adultery” as it’s supposed to be defined in Catholicism, which is to say any sex outside the context of marriage. Look at the promotion of contraception at youngsters; look at the rampant sexualization of our culture. Look at how much high schoolers and college students are encouraged to have sex, simply if they want to. Look at how divorce is modeled as an option for anyone in a marriage that isn’t satisfying their needs, and how remarriage is heavily encouraged. All of these are examples of adultery.
And in the very specific American culture definition of “adultery,” Ashley Madison (a corporation, not a person) is all over pushing cheating on your spouse as a “normal” way of exerting sexual frustration in a way that somehow doesn’t harm your marriage because it’s secret
So we should definitely be focusing on the entirety of adultery (which same-sex physicality falls under by the way), not just little chunks of them.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Because homosexual sex is contrary to natural law, and adultery (although it is also gravely sinful) is not intrinsically disordered in the same way that homosexual sexual acts are.
Man and woman are physically designed to be sexually complementary, unlike man and man, or woman and woman. Heterosexual relationships outside of marriage and homosexual relationships, while both gravely sinful, are not equivalent. I’m not saying that one is necessarily more sinful than the other, but one is intrinsically disordered and contrary to natural law.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Intrinsically disordered simply means the action is always wrong, hence how lying, calumny, fornication, sodomy*, adultery are all wrong.
*All inherently sterile sexual acts are sodomy whether committed by two men, two women, a man and a woman…
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