Laws against homosexuality?

[Corki]

Intrinsically disordered simply means the action is always wrong, hence how lying, calumny, fornication, sodomy*, adultery are all wrong.

*All inherently sterile sexual acts are sodomy whether committed by two men, two women, a man and a woman…

When you talk about “inherently”, it’s at the basic level. You are not looking at this from the base level.

Sex between a man and a woman is not always wrong. It may be wrong, depending on the circumstances (fornication, adultery, incest, etc.) Sex between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is always wrong. There is no circumstance where it could be right.

Calumny is wrong because it is the unjust attribution of wrongdoing to someone who is not guilty. Someone could wrongfully attribute another of wrongdoing through error or misunderstanding. So the act is not always wrong.

Sterile sexual acts may or may not be wrong in the context of marriage (e.g. an infertile spouse) but are always wrong in the context of same-sex relationships.

 

[Catolico65]

Intrinsically disordered simply means the action is always wrong, hence how lying, calumny, fornication, sodomy*, adultery are all wrong.

*All inherently sterile sexual acts are sodomy whether committed by two men, two women, a man and a woman…

You consistently make claims that are not doctrinal.

 

[weller2]

In God’s eyes homosexuality is worse than adultery.

After all, unwed couples that committed adultery under the law had to pay a fine but homosexuals, regardless of their married status, were stoned.

Claim not supported by the source text.

Adultery:

Deuteronomy 22:22 “If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.”

Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.”

Homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” .

The Bible clearly tells us that homosexuality is a punishment for being arrogant before God, which is very dangerous given that this is what caused Lucifer’s fall.

Citation needed.

Furthermore, homosexual relations can never fulfill, that is why homosexuals can never satisfy their sexual desires and have many parties if not orgies. Homosexual sex causes spiritual desolation and hastens personal corruption. This is why homosexuals need so much community support because their consciences are seared. May God help them.

Citation needed.

 

[weller2]

I personally know a family that was destroyed by the husband/father deciding he was homosexual and abandoning his wife and daughters. Those daughters are now adults with serious issues with their families.

More like: the man was always gay, but he was forced into marriage due to cultural pressure.

 

[Catolico65]

Claim not supported by the source text.

Adultery:

Deuteronomy 22:22 “If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.”

Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.”

Homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” .

Citation needed.

Citation needed.

This topic has been discussed numerous time here on the forum. I recommend you do a search.

 

[weller2]

Have you never heard that divorced and remarried are excluded from Holy Communion?

Yup. Because supposedly divorcing your spouse and remarrying causes public scandal, while repeated cuckolding does not. The former leads to being permanently excluded from sacraments, while the latter can be absolved repeatedly with a normal confession.

There are plenty of doctrinal references…and, oh, by the way, there are no excuses that justify adultery.

Indeed, but let me remind you that the topic of the thread is criminalization of homosexuality. I’m just wondering why the obsession on criminalizing homosexuality, where adultery carries no penalties, and arguably has much worse societal effects.

Mosaic law was at least consistent – any kind (*) of extramaritial relations carried death penalty.

(*) Except of lesbiannism (which is not mentioned in the text) and fornification outside the city (which was assumed to be rape and only the man was killed).

 

[weller2]

This topic has been discussed numerous time here on the forum. I recommend you do a search.

I’d prefer chapter and verse

 

[GraceSofia]

More like: the man was always gay, but he was forced into marriage due to cultural pressure.

That’s irrelevant to your previous claim that

… damage done to children and the society at large by adultery is much worse than damage done by homosexuality, as impacts of the latter are largely confined to gay communities.

Every homosexual is part of a larger family and community… the ripples go out. It’s like saying the impacts of drug addiction are confined to drug addicts.

 

[Catolico65]

I’d prefer chapter and verse

With all due respect I have been following your posts so I don’t see the point. My advice is to read the Bible and submit to Christ and His Church, all else is vanity. Paz.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

When you talk about “inherently”, it’s at the basic level. You are not looking at this from the base level.

Sex between a man and a woman is not always wrong. It may be wrong, depending on the circumstances (fornication, adultery, incest, etc.) Sex between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is always wrong. There is no circumstance where it could be right.

Calumny is wrong because it is the unjust attribution of wrongdoing to someone who is not guilty. Someone could wrongfully attribute another of wrongdoing through error or misunderstanding. So the act is not always wrong.

Sterile sexual acts may or may not be wrong in the context of marriage (e.g. an infertile spouse) but are always wrong in the context of same-sex relationships.

Define “basic level”

Okay.

Calumny and lying require knowing it is false before uttering it.

I said inherently sterile sexual acts, by that I meant anal sex, oral sex, probably intercrural and frottage. Infertility≠sterility

You consistently make claims that are not doctrinal.

Which claims do you think are not consistent with what the Church teaches?

That’s irrelevant to your previous claim that

Every homosexual is part of a larger family and community… the ripples go out. It’s like saying the impacts of drug addiction are confined to drug addicts.

The situation would have been avoided if we stopped trying to pretend that they can become magically heterosexual and happily married.

 

[markomalley]

Yup. Because supposedly divorcing your spouse and remarrying causes public scandal, while repeated cuckolding does not. The former leads to being permanently excluded from sacraments, while the latter can be absolved repeatedly with a normal confession.

Indeed, but let me remind you that the topic of the thread is criminalization of homosexuality. I’m just wondering why the obsession on criminalizing homosexuality, where adultery carries no penalties, and arguably has much worse societal effects.

Mosaic law was at least consistent – any kind (*) of extramaritial relations carried death penalty.

(*) Except of lesbiannism (which is not mentioned in the text) and fornification outside the city (which was assumed to be rape and only the man was killed).

Again, as multiple people have stated before, there is no lobby in US society that attempts to justify adultery as morally neutral or morally good.

There is such a lobby for homosexuality.

That is, as far as I know, the reason why most folks are up in arms about this issue.

 

[Corki]

Define “basic level”

The action regardless of intent or circumstances.

Calumny and lying require knowing it is false before uttering it.

Yes, it is intent that makes them morally wrong, not the falseness of what is said.

I said inherently sterile sexual acts, by that I meant anal sex, oral sex, probably intercrural and frottage. Infertility≠sterility

None of those are inherently wrong if done by a married couple and ending in normal intercourse.

All of those are inherently wrong if done by two individuals of the same sex.

 

[GraceSofia]

Again, as multiple people have stated before, there is no lobby in US society that attempts to justify adultery as morally neutral or morally good.

There is such a lobby for homosexuality.

That is, as far as I know, the reason why most folks are up in arms about this issue.

Yes! That is what I was trying to say earlier. You’ve said it clearly.

 

[weller2]

My advice is to read the Bible and submit to Christ and His Church, all else is vanity. Paz.

Oh, but I read the Bible. I have read, for example, John 8:7 which mentions throwing stones at adulteress – are you suggesting that she was accused of lesbian relations? And if so, which verse of Mosaic law forbids woman-on-woman relations?

Every homosexual is part of a larger family and community… the ripples go out. It’s like saying the impacts of drug addiction are confined to drug addicts.

So you’re saying that a homosexual’s family would be better off if he was in prison or executed for homosexuality?

Again, as multiple people have stated before, there is no lobby in US society that attempts to justify adultery as morally neutral or morally good.

Swingers.

 

[markomalley]

Oh, but I read the Bible. I have read, for example, John 8:7 which mentions throwing stones at adulteress

Perhaps you should read John 8 again. Concentrate on verse 11 this time.
[bibledrb]John 8:1-11[/bibledrb]

(snip)

Swingers.

Maybe I need to get out a little more, but I sure don’t see a political lobby among swingers where they are accusing people of violating their rights for lack of full endorsement of their lifestyle. I don’t see situations where they wish to indoctrinate schoolchildren. I don’t see them attempting to sue bakers or photographers for not being willing to provide services supporting their debauchery.

Perhaps one day there will be. In fact, with how society is going, it would not surprise me in the least way to see that at some point.

But not yet. When it happens, I can assure you that at least I will be as vigorously opposed to it as I am to this.

(As a side note: I have expressed equal revulsion when situations have come up where certain forces attempt to legitimize and normalize pedophilia. Though you won’t find it on CAF – the topic is a bit too disgusting for discussion here – I have also expressed disgust the one or two times I have seen the legitimation of bestiality in my life)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Several of you have made the point that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, whereas adultery is sinful only because of the particular circumstances surrounding the act. Homosexuality was also described as being wrong at a “more basic level”. But neither of these points prove that adultery is less serious than homosexuality, so as to justify criminalizing the later and not the former.

To illustrate this point more clearly, consider that murder is not intrinsically disordered, since killing in self-defense is the same act under different circumstances. But masturbation is intrinsically disordered, since the act is never justified. So by the same argument that says homosexuality should be criminalized before adultery, we would have the nonsensical conclusion that masturbation should be criminalized before murder.

 

[markomalley]

Several of you have made the point that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, whereas adultery is sinful only because of the particular circumstances surrounding the act. Homosexuality was also described as being wrong at a “more basic level”. But neither of these points prove that adultery is less serious than homosexuality, so as to justify criminalizing the later and not the former.

To illustrate this point more clearly, consider that murder is not intrinsically disordered, since killing in self-defense is the same act under different circumstances. But masturbation is intrinsically disordered, since the act is never justified. So by the same argument that says homosexuality should be criminalized before adultery, we would have the nonsensical conclusion that masturbation should be criminalized before murder.

You are confusing the idea of homicide (which can be justified by self-defense) and murder (which can never be justified).

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

You are confusing the idea of homicide (which can be justified by self-defense) and murder (which can never be justified).

Adultery can never be justifiable, nor fornication.

Adulterers have already won via decriminalization of adultery and no fault divorce for when they get tired of their spouse and want to screw someone else

 

[markomalley]

Adultery can never be justifiable, nor fornication.

Adulterers have already won via decriminalization of adultery and no fault divorce for when they get tired of their spouse and want to screw someone else

Sexual intercourse is perfectly justifiable in the correct circumstances. I shouldn’t have to say it, but will. That is between man and woman

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You are confusing the idea of homicide (which can be justified by self-defense) and murder (which can never be justified).

No, I understand the difference. I just said that murder is not intrinsically disordered. It is evil and sinful, to be sure. No doubt about that. But it is not intrinsically so. Just as adultery is evil. No doubt about that either. But the argument has been made (not by you, but by Corki, Brendan 64, and GraceSofia) that adultery is less serious and less deserving of criminalization than homosexuality because of this difference between intrinsically disordered and merely evil and sinful. It is that argument that I was contesting in my posting.