lay homilist

[andersonbd1]

Hi,
A friend informed me of a great homily he heard delivered by a layman who is the pastoral associate of their parish. The man is a sincerely devout Catholic and actually delivered a more orthodox homily than the usually boring and borderline heterodoxical homilies given by the priest. This is a large parish with 5 weekend masses. There is only one priest and he’s getting up in age. I imagine his desire to write a homily each week and deliver it 5 times per weekend has something to do with it.

I know what the girm says:

“The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.”

I’m wondering what the authority of the girm is. What is a lay bystanders responsibility to “do” anything if any? Links to articles or documents is appreciated.
Thanks much,
Ben

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi,
A friend informed me of a great homily he heard delivered by a layman who is the pastoral associate of their parish. The man is a sincerely devout Catholic and actually delivered a more orthodox homily than the usually boring and borderline heterodoxical homilies given by the priest. This is a large parish with 5 weekend masses. There is only one priest and he’s getting up in age. I imagine his desire to write a homily each week and deliver it 5 times per weekend has something to do with it.

I know what the girm says:

“The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.”

I’m wondering what the authority of the girm is. What is a lay bystanders responsibility to “do” anything if any? Links to articles or documents is appreciated.
Thanks much,
Ben

In my opinion the GIRM is clear the Lay person is NOT permitted to give a homily, period. Maybe the Bishop should assign a Deacon to this parish to assist the priest.

 

[andersonbd1]

I agree the girm is clear (that’s why I quoted it). I guess I’m anticipating a response like, “well, it’s good to follow the girm when we can, but it’s not a core dogma or anything. You need to be more loving.” How might one respond to something like that?

I do not have the authority to assign a deacon to the parish (nor would I make such a suggestion to the priest or bishop). I’m really looking for an answer about what I (as a lay person) should do.

 

[YADA]

A lay person cannot give a homily. They may under some circumstances provide a reflection on the scriptures…

The GIRM recognizes that the Homily belongs to a priest or deacon [ordained person]. There may be some circumstances that are are very limited where a lay person may provide a reflection or read a prepared homily [multi-lingual services or a mass for children are some cases - not seen that myself]. Even under some circumstances where a lay person might speak - the priest should still give some form of a homily [even if it is shortened] and / or the reflection should not occur at the point of the Mass that is reserved for the homily.

The GIRM is the official instructions for Mass in an area and is apporved by the Bishops … GIRM stands for General Instructions of the Roman Missal and is the instruction on the Roman Rite that is approved by the American Bishops [and one would assume Rome]. And the GIRM for the Melkite or other Rite would be different and in fact may have a different name, I am guessing here [Being a Latin Rite catholic, this is my guide]

A link to the UCCB’s page usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

from the GIRM:

The Homily

1. The homily is part of the Liturgy and is strongly recommended,63 for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.64
2. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.65 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.

There is to be a homily on Sundays and holy days of obligation at all Masses that are celebrated with the participation of a congregation; it may not be omitted without a serious reason. It is recommended on other days, especially on the weekdays of Advent, Lent, and the Easter Season, as well as on other festive days and occasions when the people come to church in greater numbers.66

After the homily a brief period of silence is appropriately observed.

Bolding is mine

So again:
… A lay person cannot give a homily

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I agree the girm is clear (that’s why I quoted it). I guess I’m anticipating a response like, “well, it’s good to follow the girm when we can, but it’s not a core dogma or anything. You need to be more loving.” How might one respond to something like that?

I do not have the authority to assign a deacon to the parish (nor would I make such a suggestion to the priest or bishop). I’m really looking for an answer about what I (as a lay person) should do.

I would speak with the priest about the prohibition, then the Bishop if necessary, it needs to stop.

 

[John_Lilburne]

A lay person can give a homily, but not in Mass.

For example if there is a Penitential Service. From the Rite of Penance: “37. … Penitential services, moreover, are very useful in places where no priest is available to give sacramental absolution.” Penitential services include a homily.

Canon 766 has “Lay persons can be admitted to preach in a church or oratory if it is necessary in certain circumstances or if it is useful in particular cases …”.

But a lay person giving the homily in Mass is clearly wrong. The closest to it they are allowed is outlined in the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[74.] If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a Church concerning the Christian life, it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,[156] nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.

What to do if people break the rules? Some ideas: leave, complain, gather evidence to report to higher authority, write letters, bring a tribunal case against them, confront, persuade, educate, learn … .

 

[benedictgal]

But, there is an additional section in Redemptionis Sacramentum that has not been referenced in this thread, and, it is the kernel of the whole issue:

64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

[65.] **It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146**

The highlighted section is crucial to the situation listed in the OP. Contrary to what others may think, I do believe that this is serious enough to warrant a charitable visit to the priest. This is wrong, irregardless of whatever justification one might assume.

 

[rwoehmke]

A lay person cannot give a homily.

From the OP it would appear that a lay person CAN give a homily, but he MAY not.

 

[benedictgal]

From the OP it would appear that a lay person CAN give a homily, but he MAY not.

This is incorrect. The GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum are very, very clear and direct on this prohibition.

 

[YADA]

From the OP it would appear that a lay person CAN give a homily, but he MAY not.

A homily is a specific thing. A homily is not a sermon nor is it a reflection on the scriptures…Homilies are performed by ordained persons [priests/deacons]. Reflections on scriptures, sermons and scripture lectures are all possible to be presented by lay - persons [outside of mass or within a mass as long as the priest also gives the homily]. Morality reflections, instuctions and discussions are not homilies either…

 

[benedictgal]

A homily is a specific thing. A homily is not a sermon nor is it a reflection on the scriptures…Homilies are performed by ordained persons [priests/deacons]. Reflections on scriptures, sermons and scripture lectures are all possible to be presented by lay - persons [outside of mass or within a mass as long as the priest also gives the homily]. Morality reflections, instuctions and discussions are not homilies either…

A priest friend of mine told me that a homily explains what Jesus says in the Gospel. A sermon is what Jesus was supposed to say.

The term for a layman would be “reflection”, since even the word “sermon” is more reserved for those who are ordained.

 

[YADA]

A priest friend of mine told me that a homily explains what Jesus says in the Gospel. A sermon is what Jesus was supposed to say.

The term for a layman would be “reflection”, since even the word “sermon” is more reserved for those who are ordained.

Yes, perhaps in a strictly catholic sense … but many churches have Sunday sermons not homilies and a person may give sermons on various topics some not even religious … a homily is a very specific for of address and that address reserved for the ordain [by definition as it were]… and that was my only point … a homily is not preaching in a simple sense …

A lay person reflects an ordained homilizes [and I studied homiletics but can only give reflections!]

 

[John_Lilburne]

A homily is a specific thing. A homily is not a sermon nor is it a reflection on the scriptures…Homilies are performed by ordained persons [priests/deacons]. Reflections on scriptures, sermons and scripture lectures are all possible to be presented by lay - persons [outside of mass or within a mass as long as the priest also gives the homily]. Morality reflections, instuctions and discussions are not homilies either…

Sometimes the word “homily” is used to mean a talk by a non-ordained person. Here is an example from 15 August 1997:
“Homilies in non-eucharistic liturgies may be preached by the non-ordained faithful only when expressly permitted by law and when its prescriptions for doing so are observed.”
The document was signed by people like Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Bertone and Cardinal Hoyos. It is on the Vatican’s website at vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html . The extract is Article 3, §4. The title: INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST.

 

[andersonbd1]

So we should call the lay person’s message a reflection (which come to think of it I believe they did). Also the priest spoke for a minute or two before the lay person.

Are reflections mentioned in any documents? Or is it the lack of mentioning of reflections given by lay persons during mass just a way for some to rationalize this?

 

[THurifer2]

The man is a sincerely devout Catholic and actually delivered a more orthodox homily
Ben

Lay homilist is an oxymoron

One would think a “devout Catholic” would follow the teachings of the church on the matter of who can give a homily.

 

[benedictgal]

Sometimes the word “homily” is used to mean a talk by a non-ordained person. Here is an example from 15 August 1997:
“Homilies in ***non-eucharistic liturgies ***may be preached by the non-ordained faithful only when expressly permitted by law and when its prescriptions for doing so are observed.”
The document was signed by people like Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Bertone and Cardinal Hoyos. It is on the Vatican’s website at vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html . The extract is Article 3, §4. The title: INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST.

But, the kernel here is “non-eucharistic liturgies”, such as a Communion Service (Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest). You are talking about something entirely different from “lay preaching” at the Mass.

Furthermore, even though the OP mentioned that the celebrant spoke for about a couple of minutes before the layman began, that is still not right.

 

[MrS]

If the words of the lay person are so great and need to be heard

and

if the older priest is getting old and tired…

Let the lay person write the talk, and let the priest give it.

 

[benedictgal]

Yesterday, Fr. McNamara over at Zenit discussed this very topic. Although a reader asked him about “lay preaching” during Good Friday, the answer, I believe, is fitting to the discussion at hand:

Some canonists argue that “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” along with a 1997 instruction regarding the collaboration of the laity with the priestly ministry, is more restrictive regarding lay preaching than the Code of Canon Law.

This indeed appears to be the case and was perhaps intentional. Certainly the documents in question were all duly approved by Pope John Paul II, who also promulgated the Code.

The prohibition of laypeople delivering the homily is much more stringent, and the Holy See has even gone so far as to state that that the diocesan bishop does not have the authority to permit a layperson to give the homily.

The reasons why the bishop cannot give this dispensation were adduced in the above-mentioned 1997 document: "T]his is not merely a disciplinary law but one which touches upon the closely connected functions of teaching and sanctifying" (Article 3, No. 1).

Perhaps the bishop should assign a deacon to the parish in order to help the older priest, as another poster indicated.

 

[drafdog]

The canon is silent on the subject of the duration of the celebrant’s homiletic remarks. Thus the priest might say a few words regarding the subject of the readings thereby satisfying the canon and then tell the congregation that he has asked so-and-so to prepare a meditation on the subject. The layman (or woman) then steps up to the lecturn and delivers a more in depth treatment.
No errors. No disregard of canon law. “The poor have the good news preached to them.”
Please stop beating this particular dead horse.

Matthew

 

[benedictgal]

The canon is silent on the subject of the duration of the celebrant’s homiletic remarks. Thus the priest might say a few words regarding the subject of the readings thereby satisfying the canon and then tell the congregation that he has asked so-and-so to prepare a meditation on the subject. The layman (or woman) then steps up to the lecturn and delivers a more in depth treatment.
No errors. No disregard of canon law. “The poor have the good news preached to them.”
Please stop beating this particular dead horse.

Matthew

It’s not that we’re beating this dead horse. The problem is that there are folks who tend to push the envelope to the point that it can’t close. They are akin to lawmakers who look for every loophole in the book to get their measures passed. Or, like many of us who look at every single loophole in the Tax Code so that we can increase our refunds and lower the amounts of money we have to send to the IRS.

Sorrry, Matthew, but, your argument does not work.