Lay Leading Vespers

[Marian_Lutheran]

Despite being a technical heretic (although I embrace nearly every teaching of the Roman Catholic Church) I’m posting this here because I’ll get the right answer here.

The priest (yes, Lutherans call them priests too, although most often they don’t) at my parish doesn’t like to do much liturgy apart from Sunday Mass. So we rarely have vespers, never have matins/lauds, or any of the other daily offices. Once in a while he’ll have the Suffrages and even then, he contemporizes it.

So, to fulfill my spiritual need for vespers (and not just at home), I’m going to request permission to begin leading vespers on an occasional basis in the parish. I’ve received permission from my synodical (for some reason we call a diocese a synod - go figure) to do this, but the priest will be the trouble. Assuming I convince him, is it appropriate for a layperson leading vespers to use the thurible? And if so, what all do I cense?

Also, what vestments are most appropriate? I’m thinking of buying a cassock and surplice because I plan to do this regularly.

 

[HCC]

You mean incense? Will this be done with Eucharistic exposition? Doubtful, but "High Church, " one never knows…

Generally, from what I remember of solemn vespers, I think it is the monstrance, the altar, the priest and the congregation. What order or rubrics I do not know…

Now, if you are asking because you want to lead liturgy properly under Catholic guidelines, then it is really time to ask yourself: “What am I waiting for?” The Church needs you and maybe you have a vocation.

I’m going to Solemn Vespers Sunday, I’ll take notes…but do consider what I mentioned above.

 

[Spirithound]

Despite being a technical heretic (although I embrace nearly every teaching of the Roman Catholic Church) I’m posting this here because I’ll get the right answer here.

The priest (yes, Lutherans call them priests too, although most often they don’t) at my parish doesn’t like to do much liturgy apart from Sunday Mass. So we rarely have vespers, never have matins/lauds, or any of the other daily offices. Once in a while he’ll have the Suffrages and even then, he contemporizes it.

So, to fulfill my spiritual need for vespers (and not just at home), I’m going to request permission to begin leading vespers on an occasional basis in the parish. I’ve received permission from my synodical (for some reason we call a diocese a synod - go figure) to do this, but the priest will be the trouble. Assuming I convince him, is it appropriate for a layperson leading vespers to use the thurible? And if so, what all do I cense?

Also, what vestments are most appropriate? I’m thinking of buying a cassock and surplice because I plan to do this regularly.

Hint of strategy, request to lead vespers on a regular basis, once a week is probably a good interval. Then it can be put into the parish bulletin as a “regular thing” and people will start to get used to knowing when it is being held.

This is the General Instruction for the Liturgy of the Hours. #261 says incense can be used at the Gospel canticle, that is, the Magnificat for vespers. Altar, priest, then laity.
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm#Ch%20V-I

As a layman, the vestment that is proper to you is the alb.

 

[Marian_Lutheran]

Yes, incense. And lots of it. I wish. We don’t have a monstrance (not for lack of my suggesting) nor do we do proper Exposition or public Adoration so I must settle for kneeling at the altar rail and performing private adoration before the reserved Elements.

I feel a definite vocation to the ministry, but I also feel a worldy vocation to be a husband and father. I have, however, considered RCIA, marriage, and then studying to become a permanent deacon.

Thank you for your answer!

You mean incense? Will this be done with Eucharistic exposition? Doubtful, but "High Church, " one never knows…

Generally, from what I remember of solemn vespers, I think it is the monstrance, the altar, the priest and the congregation. What order or rubrics I do not know…

Now, if you are asking because you want to lead liturgy properly under Catholic guidelines, then it is really time to ask yourself: “What am I waiting for?” The Church needs you and maybe you have a vocation.

I’m going to Solemn Vespers Sunday, I’ll take notes…but do consider what I mentioned above.

 

[Marian_Lutheran]

Thanks for the suggestion! Trouble is, the priest is so stubborn I’ll be luck to get it twice monthly. But I’ll fight… hard. Other parishioners have mentioned the desire for vespers more often and if he won’t do it, someone should.

Thanks for the link. These are the instructions that I was hoping for.

Quite convenient; I already have an alb. Technically one of the cassock-alb monstrosities, but oh well.

Thanks for your answer as well!

Hint of strategy, request to lead vespers on a regular basis, once a week is probably a good interval. Then it can be put into the parish bulletin as a “regular thing” and people will start to get used to knowing when it is being held.

This is the General Instruction for the Liturgy of the Hours. #261 says incense can be used at the Gospel canticle, that is, the Magnificat for vespers. Altar, priest, then laity.
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm#Ch%20V-I

As a layman, the vestment that is proper to you is the alb.

 

[EricFilmer]

So, to fulfill my spiritual need for vespers (and not just at home), I’m going to request permission to begin leading vespers on an occasional basis in the parish. I’ve received permission from my synodical (for some reason we call a diocese a synod - go figure) to do this, but the priest will be the trouble.

Just in case it comes up, from the Catholic perspective there is not problem for a layperson to lead vespers. The only difference is that a layperson does a different dismissal than a priest or deacon would. The fact that the rubrics for Evening Prayer in the Divine Office (i.e., “vespers”) make note of this indicates approval for laypeople to lead this liturgy. Hopefully this fact would have some bearing upon your Lutheran pastor.

Also, what vestments are most appropriate? I’m thinking of buying a cassock and surplice because I plan to do this regularly.

Coming from the Catholic perspective, the cassock and surplice is traditionally worn by clergy, although these days during a formal liturgy I think the only member of the clergy who would wear a cassock & surplice would be the M.C. (and he would likewise not be participating in the liturgy in any other functions). In terms of laity, the only ones I know who wear a cassock & surplice are altar servers (it’s either that or they wear albs).

Because you would be leading the vespers (and not acting as some type of altar server) the vestment would be the alb, as Spirithound pointed out. The alb is white and is symbolic of a person’s baptismal garment, and, generally speaking, is the proper vestment for laity engaged in a liturgical function. It is also the exact same garment that priests & deacons wear under their Mass vestments. As a matter-of-fact, a priest who would be leading solemn vespers would probably wear an alb, cincture, stole, and cope (so the “lay version” is simply minus the last two items).

A cincture can be worn with the alb, and being a member of the laity you can wear a colored cincture to match the color of the liturgical season at hand, or you can simply wear a white cincture.

When looking for an alb, you will see them being sold with the distinction of being a regular alb or a “monastic” alb. The difference is that a monastic alb has a hood, and a regular one does not. Monastic albs are traditionally worn by men in religious orders, although I do not know of any rule that limits such vestments to them. I know of a church where the altar servers wear monastic albs, and they certainly do not belong to a religious order. I also know of a seminary run by Benedictines but populated mostly by diocesan seminarians, and these seminarians routinely wear the Benedictine’s monastic albs. So I say just get whichever alb you want. And if you go with a monastic alb and someone actually happens to know the distinction and asks you why you chose it, just tell him that it is probably what Martin Luther would have worn.

 

[Apollos]

thurible

omg just rejoin the CC, so much easier and simpler … look into actual priesthood if you can give up matrimony, don’t fork around with the permanent diaconate … join an EF-oriented group (e.g. ICKSP), you’ll be much happier

 

[corsair]

I agree with you Apollos.

 

[diggerdomer]

You mean incense? Will this be done with Eucharistic exposition? Doubtful, but "High Church, " one never knows…

Generally, from what I remember of solemn vespers, I think it is the monstrance, the altar, the priest and the congregation. What order or rubrics I do not know…

Now, if you are asking because you want to lead liturgy properly under Catholic guidelines, then it is really time to ask yourself: “What am I waiting for?” The Church needs you and maybe you have a vocation.

I’m going to Solemn Vespers Sunday, I’ll take notes…but do consider what I mentioned above.

The monstrance has nothing to do with Vespers in Catholic liturgy.

 

[diggerdomer]

Despite being a technical heretic (although I embrace nearly every teaching of the Roman Catholic Church) I’m posting this here because I’ll get the right answer here.

The priest (yes, Lutherans call them priests too, although most often they don’t) at my parish doesn’t like to do much liturgy apart from Sunday Mass. So we rarely have vespers, never have matins/lauds, or any of the other daily offices. Once in a while he’ll have the Suffrages and even then, he contemporizes it.

So, to fulfill my spiritual need for vespers (and not just at home), I’m going to request permission to begin leading vespers on an occasional basis in the parish. I’ve received permission from my synodical (for some reason we call a diocese a synod - go figure) to do this, but the priest will be the trouble. Assuming I convince him, is it appropriate for a layperson leading vespers to use the thurible? And if so, what all do I cense?

Also, what vestments are most appropriate? I’m thinking of buying a cassock and surplice because I plan to do this regularly.

In Catholic liturgy, the presider at Vespers may be lay or ordained. If lay, vesture is optional…an alb may be worn.

Incense is optional.

 

[awatkins69]

If the priest really won’t let you do it in the chapel, you could always ask people to come to your home and pray together.

PS There is nothing wrong with permanent deacons at all. It’s a very holy vocation, just like marriage and the priesthood.

 

[Spirithound]

I’ve been thinking about this all night…Where should the lay leader be? In the sanctuary or in the front pew?

 

[Marian_Lutheran]

(Shameless bump - I’m interested in knowing this as well.) Update; I’ve been studying our Daily Office rites, but I’m still waiting on authorization.

I’ve been thinking about this all night…Where should the lay leader be? In the sanctuary or in the front pew?

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Well, I would like to one day be as “heretical” as you, Marian Lutheran!!

If the problem is the pastor/priest, and he won’t let you lead vespers, then that is that.

The Catholic Church needs such “heretics” as you! I don’t mean to sound impertinent, but WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR??!

Come on down!! You will be embraced with open arms in the Catholic Church!!

You can still be “Marian” As an Evangelical Catholic, you are the very best type of Catholic.

Become a married deacon, but come on in - the Tiber is warm!

Welcome!

Shameless Alex

 

[OraLabora]

Just in case it comes up, from the Catholic perspective there is not problem for a layperson to lead vespers. The only difference is that a layperson does a different dismissal than a priest or deacon would. The fact that the rubrics for Evening Prayer in the Divine Office (i.e., “vespers”) make note of this indicates approval for laypeople to lead this liturgy. Hopefully this fact would have some bearing upon your Lutheran pastor.

Indeed, and one must remind folks that while nuns are professed religious, they are not ordained. Their communities say Vespers daily, and indeed they follow the rubrics for the Divine Office in the absence of a priest or deacon. So it is a well-established practice.