Lay lectors at large Masses with lots of clergy?

[phil19034]

At large Masses with lots of clergy, like an ordination, Chrism Mass, Easter Vigil, etc; why do many Masses still have lay acting as lector for the readings and psalm, when there are plenty of priests, deacons, and/or seminarians present?

I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that Lay people could only be the Lector if there were not enough clergy?

Thoughts?

 

[phil19034]

Thank you

I’m sorry, I meant priests sitting in choir, not concelebrating. But if there are seminarians who have been installed as Lector, shouldn’t they be acting as Lector instead of laity?

 

[Phemie]

Thank you

I’m sorry, I meant priests sitting in choir, not concelebrating. But if there are seminarians who have been installed as Lector, shouldn’t they be acting as Lector instead of laity?

It was always my understanding that if there is an instituted lector present he should be the one reading, not someone who’s substituting for an instituted lector.

 

[pianistclare]

I would honestly not ever give it a second thought.

With a gaggle of priests…who’s going to decide who gets chosen???
You’d be amazed at the ones who would feel slighted, and the ones who would rather not.

Let the lay person read. Don’t we all read the Bible all the time anyway?
There’s no issue here.
A priest or deacon will properly proclaim the Gospel .

 

[phil19034]

I would honestly not ever give it a second thought.

With a gaggle of priests…who’s going to decide who gets chosen???
You’d be amazed at the ones who would feel slighted, and the ones who would rather not.

Let the lay person read. Don’t we all read the Bible all the time anyway?
There’s no issue here.
A priest or deacon will properly proclaim the Gospel .

What would you do if you had Theology 3 seminarians sitting around?

 

[Brendan]

It was always my understanding that if there is an instituted lector present he should be the one reading, not someone who’s substituting for an instituted lector.

That is correct, that should be the case.

The lector is instituted to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, with the exception of the Gospel. He may also announce the intentions for the Universal Prayer and, in the absence of a psalmist, recite the Psalm between the readings.

In the celebration of the Eucharist, the lector has his own proper function (cf. nos. 194-198), which he himself must carry out. (GIRM, no. 99)

In the absence of an instituted lector, other lay people may be deputed to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, people who are truly suited to carrying out this function and carefully prepared, so that by their hearing the readings from the sacred texts the faithful may conceive in their hearts a sweet and living affection for Sacred Scripture. (GIRM, no. 101)

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-word/the-lector-at-mass.cfm

.

Let the lay person read. Don’t we all read the Bible all the time anyway?
There’s no issue here. .

Per the Church (see above) there are specific lay people who should read, those who are Instituted Lectors. That happens in the seminary, and early in diaconal formation. Given that there were seminarians present, unless they were very early in their seminary studies, there should be Instituted Lectors amongst them.

It is to them that the ministry should have fallen.

 

[Br_Mark]

Just out of curiosity, what is the source of concern regarding who reads the Old Testament, epistle and the psalm readings?

Br Mark,osb

 

[pnewton]

What would you do if you had Theology 3 seminarians sitting around?

If this were the case, it would almost for sure be in a seminary or similar setting. I doubt it occurs in most parishes. When there is a lector at a parish, I would think he would be included as the one to read in the Masses he attends, by whoever schedules readers. That would be practical. We do the same thing with Deacons. The scheduling of lay people to distribute communion is done around their attendance. When they are scheduled at a Mass, two other lay people are included. When they are not, then three are assigned.

 

[pnewton]

Just out of curiosity, what is the source of concern regarding who reads the Old Testament, epistle and the psalm readings?

Br Mark,osb

I think the objection is to excessive involvement in the liturgy by the laity. Mind you, I am not concerned about this, but some of the more traditionally minded people have objected to lay involvement in the past. I can not judge either way, as my part in liturgy has always been without personality conflict. Yet I can see where some posturing and pride might put people off on the whole lay minister idea. I know occasionally here I get the idea that someone is arguing out of a sense of entitlement. We all forget from time to time the need to die to self, especially in the area of service to God.

 

[pianistclare]

What would you do if you had Theology 3 seminarians sitting around?

If I. Was the presided I might pick one or more. But honestly, I don’t see the big deal either way. Their voices aren’t any more worthy than another person’s.
It’s important to HEAR the Word, who reads, less so. So long as the Gospel is properly proclaimed.

 

[twf]

My Orthodox cousin was tasked to read the epistle at a Divine Liturgy as a subdeacon was not present…he had to be given a quick on the spot lesson in chanting before the liturgy (with zero previous experience) as for the Orthodox the idea of liturgy, including the readings, being merely read and not chanted is beyond the unthinkable…there is no concept of a “low mass” in the East, only the equivalent of a “high mass”. I wonder if we would have more difficulty finding lay readers if this was a requirement in the OF Mass.

 

[Reuben_J]

If this were the case, it would almost for sure be in a seminary or similar setting. I doubt it occurs in most parishes. When there is a lector at a parish, I would think he would be included as the one to read in the Masses he attends, by whoever schedules readers. That would be practical. We do the same thing with Deacons. The scheduling of lay people to distribute communion is done around their attendance. When they are scheduled at a Mass, two other lay people are included. When they are not, then three are assigned.

In our Cathedral, 1st, 2nd readings are always read by scheduled lectors. Psalm is sung by a cantor, usually from the choir. Only the Gospel is read by the deacon. The other clergies, if present, just merely concelebrate.

All clergies distribute Communion if they want to and EMHCs have to give way to them. Tbere are some sixteen Communion stations in the Cathedral, so clergies handing out Communion come in handy especially when we’re short of EMHCs. Our previous Archbishop usually did not give Communion and he would sit back during this time.

Seminerians may give Communion if they are present but there are enough places for them. They do not replace the lectors though.

 

[phil19034]

If I. Was the presided I might pick one or more. But honestly, I don’t see the big deal either way. Their voices aren’t any more worthy than another person’s.
It’s important to HEAR the Word, who reads, less so. So long as the Gospel is properly proclaimed.

To Clare and the others who asked, I’m simply asked out of curiosity. However, I am a little bit of a “liturgist” at heart (whether it’s Church or other organizations who use ritual, etc.)

I thought of this because this week I attended a Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form for the Assumption at our Cathedral Basilica and watched a Bishop’s Ordination today online at our Cathedral too.

It struck me that in the High Latin Mass, the Sub-Deacon chanted the Epistle and Psalm.

Today, during the Bishop’s Ordination, a Seminarian read the first reading, a lay Cantor (in a white choir robe) sung the Psalm, a Nun read the 2nd reading in Spanish, and the Deacon chanted the Gospel (after chanting “the Lord be with you” in Latin). The Deacon later chanted the Litany of Saints, with a Lay woman singing the response “pray for us.”
It sounded nice, but visually was a little much.

There were also between 5-8 priests wearing cassock & surplice, filling the role of acolytes since there were not many seminarians there, which was very cool.

Honestly, I guess I really like seeing lots of priests & seminarians wearing a cassock & surplice during mass.

There is a new pastor at a parish near me who is always wearing a cassock around the parish (or at least whenever I’ve been there). Looks like he never wears the black suit around the parish.

Personally, if I were a priests, I would wear the cassock all the time and would often wear the cassock and surplice when others are celebrating the Mass. I think I would rather fill the role of acolyte or MC than con-celebrate.

Anyway… this was just a thread of curiosity for me. My intention was not to argue or anything.

Thanks and God Bless!

 

[Reuben_J]

To Clare and the others who asked, I’m simply asked out of curiosity. However, I am a little bit of a “liturgist” at heart (whether it’s Church or other organizations who use ritual, etc.)

I thought of this because this week I attended a Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form for the Assumption at our Cathedral Basilica and watched a Bishop’s Ordination today online at our Cathedral too.

It struck me that in the High Latin Mass, the Sub-Deacon chanted the Epistle and Psalm.

Today, during the Bishop’s Ordination, a Seminarian read the first reading, a lay Cantor (in a white choir robe) sung the Psalm, a Nun read the 2nd reading in Spanish, and the Deacon chanted the Gospel (after chanting “the Lord be with you” in Latin). The Deacon later chanted the Litany of Saints, with a Lay woman singing the response “pray for us.”
It sounded nice, but visually was a little much.

There were also between 5-8 priests wearing cassock & surplice, filling the role of acolytes since there were not many seminarians there, which was very cool.

Honestly, I guess I really like seeing lots of priests & seminarians wearing a cassock & surplice during mass.

There is a new pastor at a parish near me who is always wearing a cassock around the parish (or at least whenever I’ve been there). Looks like he never wears the black suit around the parish.

Personally, if I were a priests, I would wear the cassock all the time and would often wear the cassock and surplice when others are celebrating the Mass. I think I would rather fill the role of acolyte or MC than con-celebrate.

Anyway… this was just a thread of curiosity for me. My intention was not to argue or anything.

Thanks and God Bless!

Must be an awesome sight. Congratulation to your new Bishop. Is he from your parish?

 

[phil19034]

Must be an awesome sight. Congratulation to your new Bishop. Is he from your parish?

No, our new Auxiliary Bishop isn’t from my parish. This new bishop has actually been involved with Spanish ministry for a large part of his priesthood (which is something my parish needs, since the number of Spanish speakers are growing in my parish)

 

[Reuben_J]

No, our new Auxiliary Bishop isn’t from my parish. This new bishop has actually been involved with Spanish ministry for a large part of his priesthood (which is something my parish needs, since the number of Spanish speakers are growing in my parish)

Very good. Sometimes we can see divine wisdom at work in the Vatican. It would surely encourage the Spanish speaking lots to have a Bishop who has a familiar background with them.

Around here many of the newly appointed Bishops, one was an auxiliary Bishop but later has taken over from the Archbishop, are from young bright priests. So seniority is overlooked here in appointing some of them but perhaps it is based more on appropriately gifted priests to bring the ever changing face of the Church into the future.

 

[Usige]

Per the Church (see above) there are specific lay people who should read, those who are Instituted Lectors. That happens in the seminary, and early in diaconal formation. Given that there were seminarians present, unless they were very early in their seminary studies, there should be Instituted Lectors amongst them.

It is to them that the ministry should have fallen.

While I would agree that an instituted lector should be used before a lay reader I think the Church has ruled otherwise. In particular I am thinking of an ex-seminarian in Australia who was instituted into the ministry of lector before leaving the seminary. He then asked the dean of the Cathedral to be allowed to exercise his ministry and was denied as there were no slots available, having all been filled by non instituted readers. He filled a complaint and the tribunal judgment was that he did not have a right to read at Mass because he did not hold an ecclesiastic office. In essence, when he left the seminary he retained being instituted, but lost any ecclesiastical office. Without the office he had no direct right to exercise the ministry. This is similar to a priest who leaves the priesthood; while still a priest they no longer hold an office and therefore cannot publicly exercise the ministry.

All that being said… I do think that an instituted lector should be used in preference to an unistituted reader. Why? To what purpose is setting up the stable ministry of lector if the person rarely exercises the ministry? Why would Blessed Paul VI retain it and explicitly open it to those not studying for Holy Orders if the ministry was to be equal to those who are temporarily deputized to serve some of the same functions?

Institution is supposed to be a stable ministry that involves not just reading when asked, but also daily study of scripture as well as teaching the faithful. I do find it slightly offensive to say that there is no difference between someone instituted through a liturgical rite and someone that is willing simply because they asked or were asked to read. There is a different level of commitment between the two and different levels of expectations.

 

[Generic_Name]

Wouldn’t a priest still be an instituted lector, same as he is still a deacon?

 

[phil19034]

Deacon,
What about a priest or deacon in choir instead of in vestments?

 

[Generic_Name]

I understand that, but it doesn’t answer my question.

One of the steps toward ordination is being instituted as a lector, correct? Does that institution disappear upon ordination? If not, wouldn’t a priest or deacon attending but not presiding (as posed earlier) be the appropriate choice?