Lay mininsters may not cleanse Communion vessels, Pope Benedict says

[Walking_Home]

Quote:

Clericalism from the clergy is about enough - do we need clericalism from the laity too ?

stands up and cheers

:clapping: :clapping: :yup:

---

My-- aren’t we grand —to stand up and cheer for our own statement.

Gottle of Geer Quote:
Clericalism from the clergy is about enough - do we need clericalism from the laity too ?

 

[frommi]

Someone is going to have to help me understand why this is even a debate?

Millions of poor in the world…we’re arguing over who can do the dishes.

 

[Jakub]

frommi,

You must be from L.A., Sacred Vessels are not dishes…

james

 

[Jakub]

A cafeteria source has a OC document posted and it will be business as usally until the USCCB meeting in November…guess they will be figuring out how many clarification questions will be sent to Rome…

james

 

[Elzee]

A cafeteria source has a OC document posted and it will be business as usally until the USCCB meeting in November…guess they will be figuring out how many clarification questions will be sent to Rome…

james

*“When in disagreement, stall by asking questions.” *
I hope this isn’t going to be the case.

 

[MrS]

Someone is going to have to help me understand why this is even a debate?

Millions of poor in the world…we’re arguing over who can do the dishes.

Sadly it is this disregard for the sacred, this “dumbing down” of the reverence…total, consistent, persistent, reverence… that is the very reason more and more Catholics don’t see a reason to believe in the Real Presence.

The laity can only be more involved if the clergy is less involved.

.

 

[fix]

Someone is going to have to help me understand why this is even a debate?

Millions of poor in the world…we’re arguing over who can do the dishes.

This sums up the debate quite well. Apparently we can’t be reverent and help the poor at the same time. The “social justice” only crowd is exactly why there is such a lack of reverence in the mass in so many places today.

 

[MrS]

This sums up the debate quite well. Apparently we can’t be reverent and help the poor at the same time. The “social justice” only crowd is exactly why there is such a lack of reverence in the mass in so many places today.

And that is EXACTELY the problem facing my current parish. Too many “long-time” parishioners who actually hate the new pastor because he is in love with the Eucharist. They see him as the destroyer of their social actions. In fact his efforts to make the Mass and the sacraments the center of the parish are clear… and the social things will still be the fruits of that effort, if they would or could even understand that. Somehow they seem to either miss that, or they just don’t have a love of the liturgy. Sad.

 

[fix]

And that is EXACTELY the problem facing my current parish. Too many “long-time” parishioners who actually hate the new pastor because he is in love with the Eucharist. They see him as the destroyer of their social actions. In fact his efforts to make the Mass and the sacraments the center of the parish are clear… and the social things will still be the fruits of that effort, if they would or could even understand that. Somehow they seem to either miss that, or they just don’t have a love of the liturgy. Sad.

IMO, it is one of the central issues facing Catholics today. It should not be an either/or proposition. It has to be both keeping the moral law, liturgical law, and doing works of charity and justice. They are not mutually exclusive.

The issue in this thread will be seen as one of legalisms and scrupulosity and those who support it will be said to worry about inconsequential things while “ignoring” the poor.

I see it as the exact opposite much of the time. We have become social workers for the sake of social work while ignoring personal holiness which involves keeping the moral law which in turns involves orthodox worship. As they say lex orandi lex credendi.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yep. Anticlericalism has infiltrated even the priesthood. But it’s a subtle anticlericalism, and takes the form of a false humility that leads to the abdication of priestly dignity and eventually, if we’re not careful, the priestly office.

I will continue to declaim this from the rooftops: when priests start reasserting their rightful authority and take back their turf and their priestly dignity, and quit trying to blend in and act as though the priesthood is no big deal, we will see vocations skyrocket.

ISTM very important that priests should have a clear sense of their place in the Church - & that we laity should too. We are as truly priests as they are, they are as truly priests as we are: neither more so nor less.​

One thing that is very unhealthy is for the laity to have a low appreciation of the great dignity to which the grace of Christ has raised them, not for their glory, but for His. All of us need to see how vastly privileged we are in Christ, all of us need to serve one another, whatever our state of life. Let us by all means have a high appreciation for the priesthood - only, let it not have as its counterpart a low appreciation of the lay state. That solves nothing - it merely tempts the clergy to become puffed-up.

As for “active participation”, mentioned a few times on this thread; this is worth a look: ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/PARACT.TXT

As is this (the formatting is not wonderful, but it’s legible):

"The idea of a profane or lay people has no place in the Bible; it would be absolutely unimaginable. The Scriptures teach in a most firm and constant manner the sacred and priestly character of each member of the people "

IOW - the whole plebs sancta Dei, not just the Levitical priests, nor those ordained to offer the Liturgy of the New & Everlasting Covenant, is holy and priestly & royal.

Which is a far higher doctrine than anything found among the peoples among whom Israel lived. ##

tuirgin.com/files/texts/orthodoxy/Evdokimov/StruggleWithGod/html/node47.html

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Accursed laity? Excuse me? A priest must be baptized before he can be validly ordained, and hence they are baptized into the Church and the laity. In other words, w/o the laity, there would be no priests or deacons.

My point exactly - unfortunately, there has been contempt for the laity in the past, from some in the clergy: & it would be a great shame if there should be any of that as a reaction to (real or perceived) abuses or shortcomings involving the laity today.​

 

[mystified]

Several Catholic blogs, including CA’s Jimmy Akin, today have published the letter from Cardinal Arinze concerning the expired indult that allowed laypeople to cleanse Communion vessels (or as His Eminence said, “cups and plates”).
This letter is clear. It does not say anything about the subject being open to “discussion”.
LA and Orange, are you listening?

 

[Victorious]

ISTM very important that priests should have a clear sense of their place in the Church - & that we laity should too. We are as truly priests as they are, they are as truly priests as we are: neither more so nor less.​

This perfectly illustrates the problem. It’s true we are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart…but there is still a world of difference between the common priesthood of the faithful and the ministerial priesthood. Some things that are appropriate for the ministerial priesthood are not appropriate for the laity. Otherwise, we wouldn’t need priests to celebrate Mass, forgive sins and annoint the sick.

 

[8640]

Someone is going to have to help me understand why this is even a debate?

Millions of poor in the world…we’re arguing over who can do the dishes.

“The poor you will always have with you…”