"Lay parish pastoral associates"

[Joannm]

That is up to the Bishop in accordance with the Holy see to determine that!

This should be priority #1 for at least all the parents. However, what do you do in the meantime?

I also do not like the mental association of ‘pastoral’ with ‘lay’ but this is my problem.

What then do you suggest to call a lay person who works full time in a parish, who takes on many of the ministerial roles that do not require an ordained person? People who work in any job in any sector have some sort of title that describes what they do.

 

[mtr01]

What then do you suggest to call a lay person who works full time in a parish, who takes on many of the ministerial roles that do not require an ordained person? People who work in any job in any sector have some sort of title that describes what they do.

I kind of like “Lay Assistant”. It describes what they are (a layperson) and what they do (assist the pastor).

 

[KathleenElsie]

What then do you suggest to call a lay person who works full time in a parish, who takes on many of the ministerial roles that do not require an ordained person? People who work in any job in any sector have some sort of title that describes what they do.

Lay parish associates

 

[Leopard]

Laypeople belong in the pews…

Lay people also belong in parish and diocesan administrative offices; in classrooms; in food pantries; in hospital, nursing home and home visits; in homeless shelters, shelters for battered women and children, and abortion alternative shelters for women; in daycare and eldercare centers; in hospices and many other places besides the pews. While many laypersons do these things without any specific commission from their dioceses, this, and more, is what Lay Pastoral Associates are expressly commissioned to do in an official capacity by their bishops.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Lay people also belong in parish and diocesan administrative offices; in classrooms; in food pantries; in hospital, nursing home and home visits; in homeless shelters, shelters for battered women and children, and abortion alternative shelters for women; in daycare and eldercare centers; in hospices and many other places besides the pews. While many laypersons do these things without any specific commission from their dioceses, this, and more, is what Lay Pastoral Associates are expressly commissioned to do in an official capacity by their bishops.

OK let me clarify, since you took my statement to mean something different than I intended:

WHEN THEY ARE IN CHURCH, laypeople belong in the pews.

As for their role in parish administration, see the second part of my post. We need to re-masculate (yes I made up that word) our priests and demand that they once again become our spiritual fathers and the strong leaders they once were. Take a look at this parish for an example: stpeterrcc.com/index.htm

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Laypeople belong in the pews.

If Catholic laypeople want to address the priest shortage, they should be raising Catholic children and fostering vocations to the Catholic priesthood.

This is an outdated take on things that Vatican II eradicated.

Lay people have a voice in their Church - and their voice being heard is CONDONED by the Church.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The whole business of giving titles like “pastoral minister” and “lay parish pastoral associate” seems very silly and by using the term “minister” intended to imply some sort of authority and, of course, power. These titles create “pseudo-clergy” and seem to be misguided.

Let’s call these people what they are: PARISHIONERS. You don’t need a special title to volunteer, counsel, advise, teach, sing, attend Mass, pass out bulletins, sign people up, share, serve on a committee, etc. All the people of the parish are obligated to help where they are able, they don’t need a special title that denotes some sort of power. This isn’t supposed to be about power, it’s supposed to be about service to God and His Church.

These titles are about what a person does professionally in the Church.

A person who comes to mass on Sunday and lives a faithful Catholic life and crunches numbers monday through friday is called a parishioner.

A person who spends 40 hours a week assisting the pastor in ministry is a lay pastoral minister.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

And as stated before, there are abuses associated with this position (women believing that they are on the same level as the priest and are assisting with the Masses in an almost priestly-like way, priests losing their voices regarding the parish due to over bearing “ministers” who think they outrank the priest, etc…)

Parish Pastoral Associates should be a full time position given to one of/or the DEACON of the parish. How many deacons have full-time jobs in addition to the Deaconate?

IMHO- Lay persons should not be holding pastoral associate positions. It is something that should be left to the ordained ie: Deacons.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

These titles are about what a person does professionally in the Church.

A person who comes to mass on Sunday and lives a faithful Catholic life and crunches numbers monday through friday is called a parishioner.

A person who spends 40 hours a week assisting the pastor in ministry is a lay pastoral minister.

That sounds correct. Priests cannot be everywhere all the time. This position, which some parishes have around here does help keep the parish running smoothly, epically with a larger parish where sheer numbers of people require extra full-time help.

 

[Joannm]

And as stated before, there are abuses associated with this position (women believing that they are on the same level as the priest and are assisting with the Masses in an almost priestly-like way, priests losing their voices regarding the parish due to over bearing “ministers” who think they outrank the priest, etc…)

Parish Pastoral Associates should be a full time position given to one of/or the DEACON of the parish. How many deacons have full-time jobs in addition to the Deaconate?

IMHO- Lay persons should not be holding pastoral associate positions. It is something that should be left to the ordained ie: Deacons.

Most deacons, unless they are retired, have full time jobs and their work as a deacon is done on Sundays and maybe one night during the week. Also, the pay scale for people working full time for the church may not be high enough to support a family depending on where one lives. Also there is a question of education. In our diocese, deacons are not required to get a masters in theology. Most of the lay pastoral associates around here have an MA or even a doctorate in Theology or Ministry and most are women because they do not demand higher salaries. A deacon I know applied for a job as a pastoral associate and asked for $90,000. The pastor offered him half that. He didn’t take the job. With five kids, 3 in college, and a high mortgage he could not afford such a salary.

 

[joelacour]

I think it was in First Things that I first read about LPPA’s. The author was of the opinion that since a majority of the LPPA’s were female, it was a way for getting the “camel’s nose under the tent flap” in the push for female ordination.

 

[KathleenElsie]

This is an outdated take on things that Vatican II eradicated.
Lay people have a voice in their Church - and their voice being heard is CONDONED by the Church.

Big families tend to be more open to vocations for their children. So I don’t feel this is outdated.
Priests being in charge is not outdated.
Laypersons being in the pew every week is not outdated.

Laypersons doing a priests job is in some cases allowed. But they are to be used only when there are no priests, deacons, acolytes available to do the work. Allowed does not mean desirable.

Teachers, choir, readers, ushers, office work, food-banks, serving the poor and elderly, cleaning, childcare and many many other opportunities to SERVE are available to the layperson. But when we so serve we are still laypeople and not pastors.

 

[twf]

I reside in the Archdiocese of Vancouver. I have yet to come across a “parish pastoral associate” in any Western Canadian parish. Common lay positions include such titles as “Lay pastoral assistant”, “Ministries coordinator”, or “Religious education coordinator”.

 

[Pious_Mat]

What does a “lay pastoral minister” do? If it is religious ed, or other specific things, give them an appropriate title. As to equating their responsibilties to that of a priest–they can’t say mass, they can’t hear confession, they probably can’t even give solid moral advice, so, on a pastoral level, they are useless. Perhaps such people are key on an administrative level–in fact, they are crucial–but to put a layperson in charge of a parish and expect them to pastorally “fill in” for the priest in non-sacramental situations is ridiculous.

And as for this “voice of the people being heard” stuff–I have taught catechism for some time, and been very involved in parochial administration (finances, etc.) assiting priests and laity in administrative positions, and don’t much care if my voice is heard. I’d much rather that God’s, is heard. And as the Holy Father once said, Truth is not a democracy.

 

[Sure]

These titles are about what a person does professionally in the Church.

A person who comes to mass on Sunday and lives a faithful Catholic life and crunches numbers monday through friday is called a parishioner.

A person who spends 40 hours a week assisting the pastor in ministry is a lay pastoral minister.

No, that person is a parish assistant or parish secretary or parish business manager or facilities manager or RE assisitant, etc.

Problems I see with this:

1. The fact that people need to have a big long title (I mean give me a break 4 words???) is a red flag.
2. The fact that they put “Lay” in the title would assume that “parish pastoral associates or ministers” are NOT laypeople.
3. The hilarious fact that the people in the article wanted to “get away” from the hierarchical structure and get back to the more “free form” early church by doing…what? giving themselves a title and power that makes them seem like they are PART of the hierarchy. The irony here is rich. Sounds like “priest envy” to me.

Let’s call them by what they do not their fake “power names”.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What does a “lay pastoral minister” do? If it is religious ed, or other specific things, give them an appropriate title. As to equating their responsibilties to that of a priest–they can’t say mass, they can’t hear confession, they probably can’t even give solid moral advice, so, on a pastoral level, they are useless. **Not so, many of these people are better educated and more orthodox than many priests we have. I’ve never heard of one that didn’t have a degree. **Perhaps such people are key on an administrative level–in fact, they are crucial–but to put a layperson in charge of a parish and expect them to pastorally “fill in” for the priest in non-sacramental situations is ridiculous.

And as for this “voice of the people being heard” stuff–I have taught catechism for some time, and been very involved in parochial administration (finances, etc.) assiting priests and laity in administrative positions, and don’t much care if my voice is heard. I’d much rather that God’s, is heard. And as the Holy Father once said, Truth is not a democracy.

.

No one has said that the Church is a democracy, BUT…I think priests should be happy to call on the expertise of the laity. We’ve had situations in some of our parishes where the money has gone “funny.” A priest should be able to lean on lay people with accounting and auditing skills, several of them, answerable to him, of course, to keep everything honest and above board. And I saw a priest with no background in education virtually destroy a school. There’s lots of things the laity could do without usurping the pastoral role of the priest and I should think the priest would welcome that, because it would give him time to pray, to hear confessions (instead of the 45 min.-1 hour if you’re lucky on Saturday PM), prepare thoughtful homilies, study, visit parishoners, the sick, etc. You know, when I was growing up a Baptist, we could count on our pastor stopping by at least a couple of times a year to visit with us. Our parishes are so huge, at least in the cities, that it’s probably unreasonable to think a priest could do that. But it would be nice.

 

[Sure]

.

No one has said that the Church is a democracy, BUT…I think priests should be happy to call on the expertise of the laity. We’ve had situations in some of our parishes where the money has gone “funny.” A priest should be able to lean on lay people with accounting and auditing skills, several of them, answerable to him, of course, to keep everything honest and above board. And I saw a priest with no background in education virtually destroy a school. There’s lots of things the laity could do without usurping the pastoral role of the priest and I should think the priest would welcome that, because it would give him time to pray, to hear confessions (instead of the 45 min.-1 hour if you’re lucky on Saturday PM), prepare thoughtful homilies, study, visit parishoners, the sick, etc. You know, when I was growing up a Baptist, we could count on our pastor stopping by at least a couple of times a year to visit with us. Our parishes are so huge, at least in the cities, that it’s probably unreasonable to think a priest could do that. But it would be nice.

This is why our parish has 1 office manager/secretary, 2 secretaries, parish accountant, RE director, RE assistant, Music director, facilities manage, custodian…that way the priest and 2 deacons can take care of the pastoral needs of the parish. After all, it’s what they’re called to do.

 

[brigid12]

This diocese has numerous female Lay parish pastoral associates.

 

[Aramis]

[Edited by Moderator]

I’ve never read anything about lay ministry in the ancient Church. There WAS a hierarchical structure anyway.

Have you not read of the Deaconesses?

Since, according to Rome, they can not be Ordained to Holy Orders, they are still properly considered laity, tho’ perhaps, like subdeacons, clerics, rather than clerks yet still not in Holy Orders…

Technically, the lesser ordinations (Lector, Cantor, Thurifer, Porter, Acolyte) are all still laymen, and if employed as such, rather than simply performing as such, called clerks.

And the vast majority of religious orders are not clerical orders.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Have you not read of the Deaconesses?

Since, according to Rome, they can not be Ordained to Holy Orders, they are still properly considered laity, tho’ perhaps, like subdeacons, clerics, rather than clerks yet still not in Holy Orders…

Technically, the lesser ordinations (Lector, Cantor, Thurifer, Porter, Acolyte) are all still laymen, and if employed as such, rather than simply performing as such, called clerks.

And the vast majority of religious orders are not clerical orders.

Yes, indeed, I DID forget the ancient deaconesses.

I know that the laity has always worked in and for the Church, I guess my point was that even in the ancient Church, there was an ordained hierarchy (bishops, presbyters, and deacons).