Lay Participation - The feel good factor?

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I guess it’s difficult to be totally sure, we can only go with what information we have. I think though that Annie has the right idea. There are loads of Eastern rites also and they are all equally valid. We just need to all respect each other.
the lay participation consists in being the congregation, responding when that is appropriate, joining silently in the prayers when that is appropriate.

what is not at all necessary for full active participation is taking any active role as any minister-reader, server, choir, communion minister etc. Those are entirely optional. I read OP as being primarily about the need many people seem to feel to be actively in a liturgical ministry or they are somehow being shut out.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It’s good to finally have an idea about why you have the views that you hold regarding the EF. You mention that the main point of the Mass should be Christ among us. This is indeed interesting, but I thought that the main point of Mass has always been the representation of the Sacrifice of Calvary, and thus the consecration the Holy Eucharist so that we may partake of it ourselves and have Christ within us after we partake of the Holy Eucharist. So even though we take the Body and Blood of Our Lord when we take the Holy Eucharist, you feel that this should also represent Christ among us? It seems that you feel that there shouldn’t be such an emphasis on the sacred, because it separates us from Him somehow? I’m not trying to be argumentative; I really do want to understand what you mean.
I was raised and lived my life in the philosophy, that we are limited human beings, and for us nothing is exclusive. Naturally the Mass is the Sacrifice of our Lord, but together with that our gathering, learning, offering and the Lord’s sacrifice, meal, mission.

Here is the history. Until the great epidemics the Church main income was the tithe, at the time of the harvest the parish got one tenth of everything. During the epidemic the traditional villages died out, and the land was grabbed by new people who did not shared the harvest with the Church. The Church turned to offering the Masses for stipend, and made good living from donations. The protestants attacked that as principle, and the Church in the Council of Trident defended the principle by the idea of Propitiation, as important element of the Mass. For several reason this resulted that any other elements (gathering, learning, offering, meal, mission) became secondary. By the time the stipends became insignificant, but the overemphasis on the propitiatory effect stayed.

It was St Pius X who felt and taught, that the redemption is for us, God does not need to be propitiated, we need to reconcile with Him, and this put again the men into the center of he Mass. The process is straight.

If you ever come to the Chicago area, try to visit the St John Cantius Fathers, and their new form Mass. They celebrate it as it was dreamed by the Council and the pope, and it is as beautiful and meaningful as possible to represent the : gathering, learning, offering; sacrifice, meal, mission. pillars.
 
I’m going to try and get the thread back on track
I have a theory that I posted (#27) on why we should have less lay involvement in, not only the liturgy, but also in Church affairs and leadership. If anyone wants to reply, I’d love to hear some opinions on it.
 
I was raised and lived my life in the philosophy, that we are limited human beings, and for us nothing is exclusive. Naturally the Mass is the Sacrifice of our Lord, but together with that our gathering, learning, offering and the Lord’s sacrifice, meal, mission.

Here is the history. Until the great epidemics the Church main income was the tithe, at the time of the harvest the parish got one tenth of everything. During the epidemic the traditional villages died out, and the land was grabbed by new people who did not shared the harvest with the Church. The Church turned to offering the Masses for stipend, and made good living from donations. The protestants attacked that as principle, and the Church in the Council of Trident defended the principle by the idea of Propitiation, as important element of the Mass. For several reason this resulted that any other elements (gathering, learning, offering, meal, mission) became secondary. By the time the stipends became insignificant, but the overemphasis on the propitiatory effect stayed.

It was St Pius X who felt and taught, that the redemption is for us, God does not need to be propitiated, we need to reconcile with Him, and this put again the men into the center of he Mass. The process is straight.

If you ever come to the Chicago area, try to visit the St John Cantius Fathers, and their new form Mass. They celebrate it as it was dreamed by the Council and the pope, and it is as beautiful and meaningful as possible to represent the : gathering, learning, offering; sacrifice, meal, mission. pillars.
Thanks for the further clarification. I was not aware that the Church’s main income before the Epidemics were one tenth of the harvest, but it makes sense, since most people were farmers, or lived some sort of agrarian life. You mentioned that after the Epidemics the land was grabbed by those who did not share the harvest, so the Church made a good living from donations. Could you please cite a source for this? And was this, to your knowledge, a widespread practice throughout Christian lands? I ask this because the common person had little money, so I don’t understand how the Church could make a good living from stipends.

I think that the Trent council did put a stop to indugences which were being sold for less-than-edifying purposes, which is one of the things that Luther had a problem with. As an aside, it’s interesting that in England, after the reformation, since the Catholic churches no longer collected part of the harvest to give to the poor and hungry, there was a problem because the Protestants, or Church of England, rather, did not take up the former practice of providing for the poor, and so many were then left destitute.

To get back to the point of the thread, I’m still not understanding the idea of propitiation, really. In your opinion, how is the overemphasis on the propitiatory effect manifested in the Latin Mass of today?

Thanks, too, to JReducation for the good explanation regarding the main elements of the Mass. 🙂
 
Mundum,

What did you find that was missing before?

And what is the understanding of participation that you have now, and how is it more in line with church teaching about mass?
Puzzleannie answered perfectly to this so I would like to use her answer as my own if you don’t mind.
The biggest thing that I learned at TLM was the we are supposed to pray the Mass. All the hustle and bustle of the NO distracts from that. Also, realising that the priest is supposed to do everything was liberating for me: I did not feel left out unless I was reading or doing something. At TLM roles are clearly defined and I am convinced that we all benefit from that.
 
Thanks to everyone for replying - I read everyone’s point of view and I agree with a lot of the points brought up. For me, when I first saw a traditional Mass (on video at first) I was a little overwhelmed. I felt I found something which I had hungered for and which was not being fulfilled in me fully up to that point. The sense of sacredness around the altar and the fact that everyone faced the same direction with the priest was a shock me after being at the New Mass for so long. Lay readers would get up and down. The priest would move about often. Lay people would come up to distribute communion. Hands would be extended to be shaken, and chatter was heard during this and the collection. It all seemed to lack something of the rigidity and strictness that the Latin Mass exuded. I felt that I had “done more” - if that makes sense - when I first attended a traditional Mass (although I felt lost at times as I tried to thumb my way through the missal and follow the Latin for the first time) than I had at all the previous Masses I attended before, even though I gave my full attention to them and was sure to say every prayer and response.

Anyway, this is how I feel. I know that there are many who attend the New Mass who would feel like they are not participating enough if they attended the Latin Mass. I must say however, that I have never felt I have participated more at mass than I do now at the tradtional Mass.
 
I guess I just see this as another human nature thing. Christ is not divided. If the mass is heaven on earth, he is there in both forms of the mass.

I don’t have a problem with people preferring the extraordinary form, I may well prefer it myself. I just don’t like preference turning into the attitude of, we have a better way, a more sacred way of worship.

Rben20 alludes to the fact that the ordinary form involvement is about the laity trying to increase their own importance by involvement in the liturgy. It may well be that some individuals do have this attitude, but equally those in the extraordinary form who think their form of worship is more sacred than the ordinary form are suffering from the same attitude problem. Humility is in the heart.
 
Thanks to everyone for replying - I read everyone’s point of view and I agree with a lot of the points brought up. For me, when I first saw a traditional Mass (on video at first) I was a little overwhelmed. I felt I found something which I had hungered for and which was not being fulfilled in me fully up to that point. The sense of sacredness around the altar and the fact that everyone faced the same direction with the priest was a shock me after being at the New Mass for so long. Lay readers would get up and down. The priest would move about often. Lay people would come up to distribute communion. Hands would be extended to be shaken, and chatter was heard during this and the collection. It all seemed to lack something of the rigidity and strictness that the Latin Mass exuded. I felt that I had “done more” - if that makes sense - when I first attended a traditional Mass (although I felt lost at times as I tried to thumb my way through the missal and follow the Latin for the first time) than I had at all the previous Masses I attended before, even though I gave my full attention to them and was sure to say every prayer and response.

Anyway, this is how I feel. I know that there are many who attend the New Mass who would feel like they are not participating enough if they attended the Latin Mass. I must say however, that I have never felt I have participated more at mass than I do now at the tradtional Mass.
I agree.

If we have less physical participation in the Mass, we might be able to feel that our soul is doing more participation than our body is doing. This feeling could also increase the feeling of sacredness in the Mass as wesit still and participate with only our souls.

If anybody wants to give their opinion on my theory of how less lay participation would increase vocations to the priesthood, read post 27. Maybe it would also increase vocations to the religious life, who knows.
 
If anybody wants to give their opinion on my theory of how less lay participation would increase vocations to the priesthood, read post 27. Maybe it would also increase vocations to the religious life, who knows.
You are probably right, I think it might increase vocations. And you know what else would increase vocations? If we decided to pay priests $150,000 a year and give them summers off. What’s that you say? It’s a bad idea for many reasons and shouldn’t be done, even though it might have the effect of increasing vocations? Hmm.
 
Rben20 alludes to the fact that the ordinary form involvement is about the laity trying to increase their own importance by involvement in the liturgy. It may well be that some individuals do have this attitude, but equally those in the extraordinary form who think their form of worship is more sacred than the ordinary form are suffering from the same attitude problem. Humility is in the heart.
The growing importance of the laity even in the Liturgy was central point in the XXI Ecumenical council. For this reason the council centralized the final control in the hand of the Apostolic See, and gave way for the influence of the laity.
  1. In liturgical celebrations each person, minister or layman, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.
  1. It is desirable that the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, set up a liturgical commission, to be assisted by experts in liturgical science, sacred music, art and pastoral practice. So far as possible the commission should be aided by some kind of Institute for Pastoral Liturgy, consisting of persons who are eminent in these matters, and including laymen as circumstances suggest.
The problem is not with the direction, the problem is with the disobedience.
 
The growing importance of the laity even in the Liturgy was central point in the XXI Ecumenical council.
And the laity was not important prior to that? Then why were parishes emptying, Catholic schools closing, and religious orders dwindling after the XXI Ecumenical council (Vatican II)? To an outsider perhaps it looked differently, but I believe people felt every bit a part of the Mass before they were told they had to “participate” more. They had the Altar Guilds, the Knights of Columbus, choirs, the nuns, etc. working behind the scenes as well. Don’t they count as important in the liturgy? You think it was easy trying to fit seven Masses into each and every Sunday morning, with noisy fans, without air conditioning and much without heat, ensuring a smooth flow of traffic between each Mass? Someone had to co-ordinate this, no? Yet now there are complaints that the Masses used to be said too fast.

Have you ever seen the credit list for each movie that you watch? It’s amazing the number of those you don’t see yet they are every bit as important as the ones you do see and hear.
 
I agree.

If we have less physical participation in the Mass, we might be able to feel that our soul is doing more participation than our body is doing. This feeling could also increase the feeling of sacredness in the Mass as wesit still and participate with only our souls.

If anybody wants to give their opinion on my theory of how less lay participation would increase vocations to the priesthood, read post 27. Maybe it would also increase vocations to the religious life, who knows.
Bold is mine.

The losses in the religious life was something coming, regardless of the changes in liturgy. By 1950, it was very clear to almost every Major Superior that religious life had deviated from the wishes, vision and mission of the founders. Just a few important examples.

Many communities of women were founded to be teaching sisters. These sisters were to teach the poor. They were deliberately founded as sisters and not nuns. Had they been founded as communities of nuns, they would not have been able to teach. Nuns don’t do outside apostolatic work.

By the 1950s it became clear that the sisters had become nuns. They dressed like nuns. They followed the horarium of nuns. Their internal government had evolved into the same model as that of nuns. In addition, many Catholic schools had become middle class and upper class schools. Aside from the congregations that were founded to work with the wealthy, the other congregations were out of compliance. Their way of life and their work was not what the founder started.

Some communities of men, especially the Franciscans, were founded as brotherhoods. By the 1950s, they had ordained so many friars that everyone referred to them as the Francisan Fathers, not the Franciscan Friars or Franciscan Brothers. They had changed the government of the order contrary to the mind of Francis. Only priests could hold office. They had prohibitted the non ordained brothers from getting higher education and working in the apostolate. They reduced them to being servants. These friars cooked, cleaned, did laundry, took care of the house and begged to keep the ordained friars free to work in parishes. In essence, they had created two fraternities in one house. In some houses the non cleric friars did not know Latin, so they could not pray the Divine Office with the ordained friars. They could only pray the Office of the Our Fathers and they often had their own chapels and their own recreation rooms. In the refectory, they sat at their own table to eat… The ordained never washed a dish or picked up a piece of paper from the floor. After supper, they got up from the table and left their dirty dishes for the non ordained to pick up. This would have made Francis roll over in his grave had he seen it.

Most religious communities of men were founded to live poverty and to do specific ministries: preach, care for the sick and poor, teach, do outreach ministry and everything other than parish work. They required that they men live in communities with a shared life of prayer, meals, recreation, common disciplines. No one owned anything. No one acted without the permission of the superior of the hosue.

By the 1950s, most male religious were ordained priests and were serving in parishes. The parish is the proper domain of the diocesan bishop and secular clergy. Those religious who serve in parishes were to organize parish life around the life of the community, not the other way around.

We had religious who were living alone in parishes, with their own cars, bank accounts, a house to themselves where they came and went as they wished. They did not attend community functions, because the community was 50 miles away or there was too much going on in the parish. The laity loved it and even encouraged it. What the laity did not know was that they were supporting the death of religious life. How were they supposed to know this?

All of this had to be addressed. By the 1950s Major Superiors began to address these issues. Those men and women who had entered religious life in the 20th century, had no experience of the original vision. To them, it was ancient history. When they were commanded to return to their roots, they were hurt. They felt betrayed, because they had given their lives to the Church and were now being told that they were doing it wrong. They were not bad people. They simply entered religious life at a time when it was off track.

Many returned to the roots and abandoned the way of life that was familiar to them to go back to the original way of life and work. Others could not deal with it and they left. That was several thousand men and women.

Today, we’re seeing less relgious, as it should be. This way of life should not be the norm. It is a call for the few who can live according to the charism and vision of the religious institute.

Unfortunately, there were casualties. Some religious communities never got it right. They did not continue on the track they were on, nor were they able to get back to the original charism. They are still struggling. I believe, but I could be wrong, that they cannot get back to the original charism, because they have some strong dissenting voices among them. You know what they say about the squeeky wheel.

In any case, I wanted to point out that religious life had deviated long before the changes in the mass and the EF is not going to bring back the Franciscans of the 13th century or the Dominican Sisters of the 19th century. There are steps that must be taken by us the religious and it’s happening. There are many new branches of old communities. These new branches are restoring the old charism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The Church STILL teaches that lay participation in the Holy Sacrifice is primarily INTERIOR. That statement is not a calculated jab at the NO Mass, but if a proposed action–and here, I mean some external gesture or vocalization or assigned role–does not foster interior participation and deepen Catholic Faith, then it can actually do more harm than good.

What I tend to see in the Novus Ordo celebrations in my area is more running around and being busy, but with no focus, symptomatic of doctrinal confusion (please understand that I am not making a generalization to all parishes). Sadly, I see this proliferation in busy-ness alongside a commensurate decline in reverence and recollectedness during the Mass.

For some, it might be a nice display of “active lay participation” to have a veritable army of Extraordinary Ministers of Communion crowding the sanctuary, but if 95% of them do not genuflect to Our Lord in the Tabernacle–or even give a perfunctory nod, as has become the disturbing custom lately–while either entering or exiting the church building, then I say we have a BIG problem. In this instance such “participation” is effectively unfruitful.
 
I did not read through this thread…for lack of time…but I would like to say that I have attended a few EF masses- and while the liturgy was beautiful I did find it frustrating that I could not hear the priest and thus was not able to enter in as fully as I would like to. I also appreciate being able to add my physical voice to the prayer of the church in the OF- for me this really does help me to fully participate in the prayer of the mass.
 
I did not read through this thread…for lack of time…but I would like to say that I have attended a few EF masses- and while the liturgy was beautiful I did find it frustrating that I could not hear the priest and thus was not able to enter in as fully as I would like to. I also appreciate being able to add my physical voice to the prayer of the church in the OF- for me this really does help me to fully participate in the prayer of the mass.
Don’t take this the wrong way but this is a normal reaction to the EF from someone who is used to the OF. Perhaps our new culture now only hears microphones and does not follow actions or see those actions as prayers. The EF is full of details (kissing, bowing, genuflecting, signs of cross, epistle side, gospel side, etc, etc) and following all these rubrics gives a different meaning to praying the Mass and participating fully in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Both ways are valid, of course, but there will be differences in the way participation can be manifested. Perhaps in the future this will change.
 
The Church STILL teaches that lay participation in the Holy Sacrifice is primarily INTERIOR. That statement is not a calculated jab at the NO Mass, but if a proposed action–and here, I mean some external gesture or vocalization or assigned role–does not foster interior participation and deepen Catholic Faith, then it can actually do more harm than good.

What I tend to see in the Novus Ordo celebrations in my area is more running around and being busy, but with no focus, symptomatic of doctrinal confusion (please understand that I am not making a generalization to all parishes). Sadly, I see this proliferation in busy-ness alongside a commensurate decline in reverence and recollectedness during the Mass.

For some, it might be a nice display of “active lay participation” to have a veritable army of Extraordinary Ministers of Communion crowding the sanctuary, but if 95% of them do not genuflect to Our Lord in the Tabernacle–or even give a perfunctory nod, as has become the disturbing custom lately–while either entering or exiting the church building, then I say we have a BIG problem. In this instance such “participation” is effectively unfruitful.
You wouldn’t like mass in a monastery or friary where you have an entire community of brothers all over the place in the sanctuary. Remember, most monks and friars are not priests. However, in order to reinforce participation by all the brothers, ordained or not, and to reinforce brotherhood, the founders insisted in active participation of the entire community.

My point is that the busy - ness that you may see, may be an overkill or may simply be something that has been happening in religious houses of men for over 1,000 , but has not been properly translated for the parish. It may be an issue of a diocesan priest not knowing how to choreograph the movements of people to keep it harmonious. Friars and monks spend hours planning a single mass. Every move is intentional and everyone knows where to stand and when to move. People are not tripping over each other.

Monks and friars rarely genuflect, except at certain parts of the mass. Friars and monks bow, if they intend to remain standing or they just kneel if they intend to do so. Genuflecting is a distraction for us. We bow and move on. It’s graceful and quick. It’s also easier when you’re wearing a habit and a choir mantle with yards and yards of fabric. If the Blessed Sacrament is exposed, then you kneel on both knees, bow and stand.

Back in the day when most churches were attached to religious houses, this was a common experience for the laity. We did not get to see much of it in the USA, because we don’t have as many religious houses where the lay faithful can attend mass. However, you can have many people involved and it can be very beautiful and very smooth. It just has to be choreographed. This is something that we learn in novitiate. By the time we’re professed, you have it down to an art form.

Maybe secular pastors need to look at how many persons they have in the sanctuary, since they can’t have the entire congregation. Trim it down to the number that they need and then do as friars and monks do, learn the steps and movements so that it looks graceful.

Parishes also have one disadvantage that I have noticed, compared to religious houses, because they have many masses. They can’t spend two hours planning a mass. Planning is reserved for those singular masses such as Christmas and Easter. The rest of the days of the year, you’re pretty spontaneous. I can see how having so many masses can create a planning problem.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
And the laity was not important prior to that? Then why were parishes emptying, Catholic schools closing, and religious orders dwindling after the XXI Ecumenical council (Vatican II)? To an outsider perhaps it looked differently, but I believe people felt every bit a part of the Mass before they were told they had to “participate” more. They had the Altar Guilds, the Knights of Columbus, choirs, the nuns, etc. working behind the scenes as well. Don’t they count as important in the liturgy? You think it was easy trying to fit seven Masses into each and every Sunday morning, with noisy fans, without air conditioning and much without heat, ensuring a smooth flow of traffic between each Mass? Someone had to co-ordinate this, no? Yet now there are complaints that the Masses used to be said too fast.
Read the 1917 Canon Law.

PARS TERTIA: DE LAICIS
Can 682. Laici ius habent recipiendi a clero, ad normam ecclesiasticae disciplinae, spiritualia bona et potissimum adiumenta ad salutem necessaria.

they have right to receive the sacraments necessary to salvation. The next paragraph is that except for seminarians they have no right to clerical habits. Religious individuals were distinc, and the law regulated the associations, but more restrictions only.

I was actively participating in the church life. The organization of the choirs and the flow of masses belonged to payed workers under strict regulation of the pastor w/o any possibility of individual freedom or job protection. The pastor at will could terminate their job w/o even giving reason, and due to the good salary this was the employers market. They acted as puppets. The guilds and other associations were also under strict surveillance of the clerics w/o any independence. One of the reason of the recent abuses is the reaction of the previous strictness.

As for the emptying, the churches are not empty. My territorial parish is full for seven masses every weekend. You should try to project a statistics that from the same area how many people are collected for a traditional Mass, and how many for a new form mass.

In the good old times at Sunday morning the only thing to do was to sleep or go to church. No mall, no TV, no movie theaters, even the bars were closed. The changes not emptied but kept people at the churches.

There are problems, but always were problems. The only difference is that in the good old times the problem were not open for the media or to the average laity.
 
Read the 1917 Canon Law.

PARS TERTIA: DE LAICIS
Can 682. Laici ius habent recipiendi a clero, ad normam ecclesiasticae disciplinae, spiritualia bona et potissimum adiumenta ad salutem necessaria.

they have right to receive the sacraments necessary to salvation. The next paragraph is that except for seminarians they have no right to clerical habits. Religious individuals were distinc, and the law regulated the associations, but more restrictions only.

I was actively participating in the church life. The organization of the choirs and the flow of masses belonged to payed workers under strict regulation of the pastor w/o any possibility of individual freedom or job protection. The pastor at will could terminate their job w/o even giving reason, and due to the good salary this was the employers market. They acted as puppets. The guilds and other associations were also under strict surveillance of the clerics w/o any independence. One of the reason of the recent abuses is the reaction of the previous strictness.

As for the emptying, the churches are not empty. My territorial parish is full for seven masses every weekend. You should try to project a statistics that from the same area how many people are collected for a traditional Mass, and how many for a new form mass.

In the good old times at Sunday morning the only thing to do was to sleep or go to church. No mall, no TV, no movie theaters, even the bars were closed. The changes not emptied but kept people at the churches.

There are problems, but always were problems. The only difference is that in the good old times the problem were not open for the media or to the average laity.
Bold is mine. The average lay person was clueless and some still are. Just read what I said about religious life during the first half of the 20th century.

The average lay person thought this was the way it was supposed to be. Today, even when we explain to people why we cannot go back to that model, they still don’t understand what’s wrong with going back to it.

I remember Fr. Benedict G. explaining, on his show, how the friars in a certain part of the city were going to have to move out, because the people were no longer poor. They were gradually becoming middle class and the Franciscan reform calls for Franciscans to live only among the poor. There was a person who was very angry. She took it as a rejection. Another gentleman could not see what was wrong with serving the middle class, when according to him, “the middle class has souls that need saving too.”

No matter how it was explained that St. Francis did not target that population, but that was more the domain of the secular clergy and the Jesuits, the listener could not bring himself to understand Francis of Assisi. Because he didn’t understand Francis, he had no clue why staying would be wrong and would simply repeat what we have been trying to do away with.

I’m not sure how to help people, especially the middle class Catholic, to understand that not everything was as it should be.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
"
I would like to ask everyone a few questions relating to this. Why do lay people nowadays feel the “need” for more active participation in the liturgy? Why is it that people are no longer satisfied with the traditional level of participation? What does participation mean to you? Does one have to be up at the altar, or saying the prayers out loud to fully participate? If the laity nowadays participate “more fully” do those who attend the traditional Mass participate in a lesser manner?"
I was brought up in the Latin Mass. There was no participation at all. Some read their Missals, most had no idea where the priest was–as far as the readings went. It was an inactive participation. I took 4 years of Latin and loved the Latin Mass. When it went to the vernacular, I was disappointed, upset and kind of left the church.

However, I have returned and love the Mass as it is. Although I believe a lot of reverence has been lost. I love the participation of the congregants. I am a lector and am doubly blessed at Mass. I don’t feel the “need” for participation, I feel the “want”. We attend Mass to participate in the sacrifice and worship God, not just to fulfill an “obligation”. I certainly do not consider the Mass an “obligation”–it is the fulfillment of my day and I still get excited about attending daily.

Yes, we should be saying the appropriate prayers aloud and respond when we should. We are supposed to be active participants in the Mass.
 
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