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bknebel
Guest
Does anyone know the canon law/church rules regarding a lay person giving a ‘reflection’ during a Communion Service?
Thanks
Thanks
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contemplative
Guest
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur42.htm
catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1190
Try these links for info
catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1190
Try these links for info
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bknebel
Guest
Thanks, I know for sure not during Mass, but what about during a communion service when there is no priest? Persay, If I were performing the service because the priest couldn’t make it?
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contemplative
Guest
Q: Is it lawful for a layperson to officiate at a Communion service? If so, is it lawful for a layperson to give a homily during this Communion service?
A: If it becomes necessary for a celebration to be carried out in the absence of a priest, then no one person should “officiate” or “preside.” The recently released instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum states:
“It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of the Eucharist. . . . It will be preferable, moreover, when both a priest and a deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as ‘presiding’ over the celebration” (RS 165).
Regarding preaching at these celebrations, only the bishop may give permission for a layperson to preach—and only under extraordinary circumstances, such as the absence of sacred ministers.
“The homily on account of its importance and its nature is reserved to the priest or deacon during Mass. As regards other forms of preaching, if necessity demands it in particular circumstances, or if usefulness suggests it in special cases, lay members of Christ’s faithful may be allowed to preach in a church or in an oratory outside Mass in accordance with the norm of law. . . . All must remember besides that the faculty for giving such permission belongs to the local ordinary, and this as regards individual instances; this permission is not the competence of anyone else, even if they are priests or deacons” (RS 161).
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501qq.asp
from Catholic Answers
A: If it becomes necessary for a celebration to be carried out in the absence of a priest, then no one person should “officiate” or “preside.” The recently released instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum states:
“It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of the Eucharist. . . . It will be preferable, moreover, when both a priest and a deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as ‘presiding’ over the celebration” (RS 165).
Regarding preaching at these celebrations, only the bishop may give permission for a layperson to preach—and only under extraordinary circumstances, such as the absence of sacred ministers.
“The homily on account of its importance and its nature is reserved to the priest or deacon during Mass. As regards other forms of preaching, if necessity demands it in particular circumstances, or if usefulness suggests it in special cases, lay members of Christ’s faithful may be allowed to preach in a church or in an oratory outside Mass in accordance with the norm of law. . . . All must remember besides that the faculty for giving such permission belongs to the local ordinary, and this as regards individual instances; this permission is not the competence of anyone else, even if they are priests or deacons” (RS 161).
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501qq.asp
from Catholic Answers
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bknebel
Guest
So…
What do you all think of this personally? Is there a problem with a lay person giving a reflection during a communion service if the priest has left them in charge of the service?
What do you all think of this personally? Is there a problem with a lay person giving a reflection during a communion service if the priest has left them in charge of the service?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I find it very interesting how Catholic Answers edited paragraph 165 of Redemptionis Sacramentum in their answer.
Here is the whole paragraph, the bolded portion is the part they edited out and replaced with “. . .”
[165.] It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of the Eucharist.271 The diocesan Bishops, therefore, should prudently discern whether Holy Communion ought to be distributed in these gatherings. The matter would appropriately be determined in view of a more ample co-ordination in the Bishops’ Conference, to be put into effect after the recognitio of the acts by the Apostolic See through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It will be preferable, moreover, when both a Priest and a Deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as “presiding” over the celebration.
Now the edited out portion seems to say that it is up to the Bishop to decided about having these Communion Services acting in concert with the National Conference of Bishops.
Now it does say that a lay person should not be said to be “presiding” over the celebration but it doesn’t really say that the laity shouldn’t lead it.
They also left out the foot note 271 which reads.
[271] Cf. Congregation for Divine Worship, Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, Christi Ecclesia, n. 22: Notitiae 24 (1988) p. 371.
So if you look at that reference, you will see that this is strictly referencing a Communion Service held on Sundays, which most Communion Services I have seen are held on weekdays.
Here is the whole paragraph, the bolded portion is the part they edited out and replaced with “. . .”
[165.] It is necessary to avoid any sort of confusion between this type of gathering and the celebration of the Eucharist.271 The diocesan Bishops, therefore, should prudently discern whether Holy Communion ought to be distributed in these gatherings. The matter would appropriately be determined in view of a more ample co-ordination in the Bishops’ Conference, to be put into effect after the recognitio of the acts by the Apostolic See through the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It will be preferable, moreover, when both a Priest and a Deacon are absent, that the various parts be distributed among several faithful rather than having a single lay member of the faithful direct the whole celebration alone. Nor is it ever appropriate to refer to any member of the lay faithful as “presiding” over the celebration.
Now the edited out portion seems to say that it is up to the Bishop to decided about having these Communion Services acting in concert with the National Conference of Bishops.
Now it does say that a lay person should not be said to be “presiding” over the celebration but it doesn’t really say that the laity shouldn’t lead it.
They also left out the foot note 271 which reads.
[271] Cf. Congregation for Divine Worship, Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, Christi Ecclesia, n. 22: Notitiae 24 (1988) p. 371.
So if you look at that reference, you will see that this is strictly referencing a Communion Service held on Sundays, which most Communion Services I have seen are held on weekdays.
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contemplative
Guest
These very words are being abused by some. I know of priests who cry " The Bishop’s gives dispensation!"…and then the priest sits down while a layperson gives a ‘reflection’ that sounds more like a homily.
I have actually heard some nice prewritten homilies (from a book written by priests) read by a layperson during a Communion Service. Is this acceptable?
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I have participated in many Communion services in the absence of Sacred Ministers. I have always given a reflection on the readings. In some instances I also read them. In other instances others read the readings.
I believe in either case the person giving the reflection must be trusted to remain in conformity with the teaching and interpretation of the Church.
I do not believe that most EMHC’s spend any time pre-reading the Sunday readings and commentaries or have ever received any training on giving a reflection on Scripture. Just because someone is the “head” EMHC does not qualify them.
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Melanie01
Guest
“Reflections”???
Lay communion service???
Is this a Catholic thing?
Lay communion service???
Is this a Catholic thing?
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contemplative
Guest
Melanie01 said:
aaahhh yes!
Ignorance is truly bliss!
Leave well enough alone Melanie01
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Just as you abuse it the other way.ByzCath:
These very words are being abused by some. I know of priests who cry " The Bishop’s gives dispensation!"…and then the priest sits down while a layperson gives a ‘reflection’ that sounds more like a homily.
We are talking about Communion Services not the Mass. The talk given following the readings in a Communion Service is a reflection not a Homily. A Homily only occurs in a Mass.
As per the Catechism. (underlined emphasis added)
1346 The liturgy of the Eucharist unfolds according to a fundamental structure which has been preserved throughout the centuries down to our own day. It displays two great parts that form a fundamental unity:
- the gathering, the liturgy of the Word, with readings, homily and general intercessions;
- the liturgy of the Eucharist, with the presentation of the bread and wine, the consecratory thanksgiving, and communion.
I do not see why it wouldn’t be, after all this is just a Communion Service. A priest could just read this for his Homily if he wished.
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contemplative
Guest
I don’t see how I have abused anything. You obviously can’t imagine how painful it is to sit during a weekly Communion Service and listen to a layperson chop and distort the Gospel reading for the day. I can more than imagine what this is like.
My biggest issue with ‘reflections’ is that no one seems to be able to draw a clear line between what a reflection is and what a homily is. Where are the guidlines for differentiating the two? Where are the guidlines written? I have been reduced to considering tape recording a reflection or two for others to hear. Between priests abusing the use of laypeople giving reflections and all the gray area that surrounds the definition of a reflection there seems to be no end in sight for the possibility of foolishness.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes, I can see that but… I have heard the samething said about some priests’ homilies.
You seem to blame this on the Communion Service, which is not the problem.
Hmm, I thought I had drawn a clear line between what a reflection is and what a homily is.
A reflection is given after the readings in a Communion Service, a Homily is given by a priest, deacon, or bishop after the readings in a Mass.
Seems pretty clear to me.
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contemplative
Guest
The problem is unordained laypeople giving reflections. What are those crazy things they deliver and where are the guidelines for putting one together. Besides the person delivering them ( priest or layperson) what are the real differences between homily and reflections. Could there be no real difference? Good grief. Let us all take turns giving a homily/reflection each for each Sunday Mass or weekday Mass for that matter. Put your name in the hat and maybe you’ll be lucky enough to deliver tomorrow.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes we need some guidlines for such things, but we need them for homilies also.
And there you go again. A reflection at a Communion Service on a Weekday is not a Homily. A Homily is given during a Mass and is required at Masses on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.
You seem to always come back to this thing of laity giving Homilies. A communion service is not a Mass and is not on a Sunday. Also no where have I said that I think the laity should give homilies.
I know you are against this but this topic has nothing to do with the Mass nor with the laity giving Homilies.
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ncjohn
Guest
While I totally agree with you that a reflection is by definition not a homily, I have to agree with Contemplative that the effect is the same. You have a person standing before a group of other people imparting information or opinion regarding the scripture reading. Whether you call it a reflection or a homily it is the same process and has the same objective and effect.
I led weekly communion services at our parish for a couple years but our guidelines were that the only type of “reflection” we were allowed to give was a reading from a pre-approved source. I personally used the Word Among Us daily meditations. I believe the other man who led them used Magnificat although I’m not positive of that.
While people being trusted and trained to lead communion services are usually pretty trustworthy, I would not personally want to see laity untrained in homiletics undertaking that task without specific approval. I could see possibly writing something up on a particular situation and having it pre-approved by the priest, but under no circumstances would I want to see someone allowed to just go out and “wing it.” If we don’t allow lay people to give homilies at a mass, they shouldn’t be doing it at a communion service either.
Peace,
John
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
John,While I totally agree with you that a reflection is by definition not a homily, I have to agree with Contemplative that the effect is the same. You have a person standing before a group of other people imparting information or opinion regarding the scripture reading. Whether you call it a reflection or a homily it is the same process and has the same objective and effect.
I led weekly communion services at our parish for a couple years but our guidelines were that the only type of “reflection” we were allowed to give was a reading from a pre-approved source. I personally used the Word Among Us daily meditations. I believe the other man who led them used Magnificat although I’m not positive of that.
While people being trusted and trained to lead communion services are usually pretty trustworthy, I would not personally want to see laity untrained in homiletics undertaking that task without specific approval. I could see possibly writing something up on a particular situation and having it pre-approved by the priest, but under no circumstances would I want to see someone allowed to just go out and “wing it.” If we don’t allow lay people to give homilies at a mass, they shouldn’t be doing it at a communion service either.
Peace,
John
While I understand what you are saying I still do not agree with Contemplative as she jumps to conclusions just as you are.
How do we know that the reflection giving did not follow the exact guidelines that yours followed?
How do we know that the person giving the reflection does not have the training to do so or been approved of by the bishop.
Seems you guys think that ordiantion wipes away all error and that all homilies are great, they aren’t and what you worry about with these reflections can and does happen in homilies.
I am content in letting the bishop run his diocese as long as he follows what the Church Teaches. In this case, there is no hard and fast rules yet.
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ncjohn
Guest
With all due respect, I am not jumping to any conclusions, nor am I addressing any specific situation or diocese. I am simply stating that I don’t believe that untrained people should be giving “reflections” or homilies that haven’t been approved. My specific statement was “I would not personally want to see laity untrained in homiletics undertaking that task without specific approval.” Untrained, unsupervised lay people on the other hand are more likely, in most cases, to cause confusion or speak in error. That is not true in all cases of course as I know very knowledgeable lay people with great communication skills. Even then I would personally prefer that someone review the material before it is presented, at least until a comfort level is established.
I also did not address ordination in any way and certainly did not imply that it wipes away error. I left my local parish over a priest who I personally find to be in great error. Regardless of yours or my opinion however, priests are both trained in homiletics and specifically authorized to preach. If a bishop, or the laity, has a problem with what he is preaching there are avenues to address that.
Please don’t jump to conclusions as to what you believe I’m saying or thinking. I think we’re saying essentially the same thing, although we may have some minor differences. In the end I think we’re both chasing the same goal and need not be in conflict over it.
Peace
John
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Ok, I agree that untrained people shouldn’t be giving reflections but saying that here sort gives the impression that you think these people are untrained, which is something we do not know which is the point I am trying to make right now.
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Melanie01
Guest
I have added a greater fervour to my prayers when I go to Holy Mass offered by a Priest, as I give thanks for the opportunity to go to daily Mass and frequent confession, recite the rosary en masse before Mass on Sundays, pray the stations of the cross, participate in Benediction…
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