Lay Poeples Duty

[benedictgal]

Clearly the text is speaking of protecting the Sacrament and unless some actual sacrilege or scandal is being perpetuated I think there are much more useful ways to go about things. Perhaps simply asking the priest about it, and allowing that perhaps it is you who are in error is the best policy at first. All too often I have been convinced I had witnessed some horror in a Mass only to do some reading and find that the priest was well within the rubrics and norms. I suppose those guys go to school for something after all . If that is not so however I would think the obvious and best response would be prayer. I sometimes think we have quietly forgotten about the efficacy of prayer, and can only really feel confident doing something more concrete, as if prayer is less than concrete. Perhaps in our culture we are all just too used to “I demand to see your manager” kind of action, and I doubt that this is really effective unless real scandal is at work. If that is not so then generally we just look like the curmudgeons we really are.

However, there is somesthing in RS that also speaks to changing texts:

10.] The Church herself has no power over those things which were established by Christ Himself and which constitute an unchangeable part of the Liturgy.23 Indeed, if the bond were to be broken which the Sacraments have with Christ Himself who instituted them, and with the events of the Church’s founding,24 it would not be beneficial to the faithful but rather would do them grave harm.*** For the Sacred Liturgy is quite intimately connected with principles of doctrine,25 so that the use of unapproved texts and rites necessarily leads either to the attenuation or to the disappearance of that necessary link between the lex orandi and the lex credendi.26***

In other words, no one has the right to hit the delete button and chop up texts they don’t like in the Mass. Conversely, no one has the right to insert words into the Mass that don’t belong there.

 

[SHAKA_MAKA1]

Someone on an earlier post said, “if it isn’t that major of an abuse they would just let it go”. Who gets to decide what is major or what is minor. Where’s the list

 

[benedictgal]

Someone on an earlier post said, “if it isn’t that major of an abuse they would just let it go”. Who gets to decide what is major or what is minor. Where’s the list

That is why it is very important to read Redemptionis Sacranentum. You can find the document in its entirety at:

adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html#anchor1242988

Some people may balk at the source being from Adoremus; however, this site is much easier to navigate than the one from the Vatican and it also has the GIRM and virtually all of the liturgical documents. It’s really quick access.

 

[cothrige]

However, there is somesthing in RS that also speaks to changing texts

…

In other words, no one has the right to hit the delete button and chop up texts they don’t like in the Mass. Conversely, no one has the right to insert words into the Mass that don’t belong there.

Yes, I agree. Nobody has that right, and it can be a serious thing. And we also have a duty to protect the Sacrament and lodge a complaint if needed. I don’t question that in any way. But, charity is needed, and care should always be at the maximum. If the abuse really causes a distortion to the Sacrament then it would seem some action is required. But, I think we should start small and quiet and slowly work our way up to the louder more direct ways. And then only scandal or serious abuses I think could ever be a cause for that.

When I go to a restaurant sometimes the service is bad. I have seen people complain to the management about this. I have seen the same thing in stores and other such places. However, though I have often gotten bad service I cannot bring myself to complain about it. I always figure that the only possible response is a person getting reprimanded, punished in some way, or fired. Okay, some would say they deserve that, but do they for sure? Perhaps that person has a family member who is very is very sick, or their husband or wife left them that day. Who can know. And what was our real loss? Our coffee was a bit cooler than usual? For me there are too many variables not possibly known to me, and too many possibilities all too known to me. I am uncomfortable with either.

When I go to Church, unlike shopping, I am together with fellow Christians. And if I am hesitant to report or complain about a waiter I don’t know, and who may be of any character, why be any less so with those who worship with me? The priest most of all. I have no objection to how others exercise their rights, and I am not questioning them. If a person feels compelled to act on what they see as abuse then who am I to speak against it? That is not my intention. I am merely speaking about my feelings about how careful we should be before taking that step, legitimate as it is. I do hope that others here won’t misunderstand me on that.

Patrick

benedictgal, I just noticed you have Laredo, Texas listed as your location. Makes me think back seeing that. I used to live in Freer and visited down there a time or two, though the memory is lost in the mists of time, so to speak. Wonder how much that area has changed since then?

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, I agree. Nobody has that right, and it can be a serious thing. And we also have a duty to protect the Sacrament and lodge a complaint if needed. I don’t question that in any way. But, charity is needed, and care should always be at the maximum. If the abuse really causes a distortion to the Sacrament then it would seem some action is required. But, I think we should start small and quiet and slowly work our way up to the louder more direct ways. And then only scandal or serious abuses I think could ever be a cause for that.

When I go to a restaurant sometimes the service is bad. I have seen people complain to the management about this. I have seen the same thing in stores and other such places. However, though I have often gotten bad service I cannot bring myself to complain about it. I always figure that the only possible response is a person getting reprimanded, punished in some way, or fired. Okay, some would say they deserve that, but do they for sure? Perhaps that person has a family member who is very is very sick, or their husband or wife left them that day. Who can know. And what was our real loss? Our coffee was a bit cooler than usual? For me there are too many variables not possibly known to me, and too many possibilities all too known to me. I am uncomfortable with either.

When I go to Church, unlike shopping, I am together with fellow Christians. And if I am hesitant to report or complain about a waiter I don’t know, and who may be of any character, why be any less so with those who worship with me? The priest most of all. I have no objection to how others exercise their rights, and I am not questioning them. If a person feels compelled to act on what they see as abuse then who am I to speak against it? That is not my intention. I am merely speaking about my feelings about how careful we should be before taking that step, legitimate as it is. I do hope that others here won’t misunderstand me on that.

Patrick

benedictgal, I just noticed you have Laredo, Texas listed as your location. Makes me think back seeing that. I used to live in Freer and visited down there a time or two, though the memory is lost in the mists of time, so to speak. Wonder how much that area has changed since then?

We have now exploded lto about 200,000 population. We are our own diocese now, although Freer is still part of Corpus Christi. IVe been through Freer several times on my way either to Corpus Christi, Beeville and Houston. The Snake statue in front of the Chamber is still up there.

I think my biggest concern is that there is too much apathy regarding the liturgy. Rome has pretty much drawn the proverbial line in the sand on this matter. Unfortunately, there are those who think that RS is a document that is merely optional or, pretty much non-existent. That is sad, but, unfortunately very true.

I know for me it has been very difficult. About 4.5 years ago, the bishop sent me to the conference for the Federation of Diocesan LIturgical Committees. Cardinal Arinze was the keynote speaker. Everyone was enthralled with him and he got the same awe-struck, star-struck reception that a certain U.S. Senator from Illinois is now receiving. In fact, many declared him papabili (future pope material). However, when he started to get on with the business of the importance of following liturgical norms, the “ga-ga” attitude may have remained, but, it almost pretty much went in one ear and out the other the next day when the nitty gritty conference work began to take shape. I think people were enthralled with the notion of meeting the Prefect, but, somehow the message got lost with the glitz and glamour.

I took about three or four notepads full of notes on the liturgy, including the dissection of the GIRM. However, when I reported what I learned to the bishop, who had also heard Cardinal Arinze speak, the only thing the previous director of divine worship could say that resulted from the conference (he also went) was that a couple of things regarding the Distribution of Holy Communion had changed. My eyes got as big as saucers because I had gone through a point-by-point explanation with Msgr. Moroney on the subject.

The problem is that information is not filtering from the top down. I personally experienced this. Of course, my dad told me that at least I got to stay at a nice, albeit, haunted hotel (managing to save the diocese money) and had my own paranormal experience. But, that was about it.

 

[Spiller]

You cannot, in good conscience, allow a genunine liturgical abuse to fester and continue. Read over Redemptionis Sacramentum carefully. Make sure that what is occuring is a legitimate abuse and then follow the guidelines listed in post #2.

There may be some in this thread who have the attitude of “live and let live”, but, by not taking any action on something that you know full well is an abuse, it’s as though, in my opinion, you are a party to it by ignoring the situation.

Wrong is just as bad by ommission as it is by commission.

Your black-and-white viewpoint is naive and can cause problems on its own. If I witnessed any legitimate abuse I would certainly bring it to the attention of my pastor in the most tactful way possible. If he responded and took care of the matter, that’s wonderful. If he didn’t then one really needs to ascertain the gravity of the abuse and secondarily the likelihood it will receive due attention if one elevates it.

If it’s graviora delicta or even some grave abuse as defined by RS it would get fixed. 99% of the time I think the great majority of pastors would be quick to address and fix such problems. I would make it my duty to elevate and follow through on the remaining 1% – no matter what.

If the abuse(s) were not graviora delicta or certain grave abuses and the pastor didn’t take action, I would take a very hard look at the playing field. Is the bishop going to do anything or is he going to ignore it as well? Ask around at your parish and others to see if the specific abuse(s) are tacitly allowed in your diocese. If they are, any further actions of mine would only be in the form of prayer.

Either way – you have done your duty.

Why not push it? Because eventually you’ll lose any and all influence after awhile at your parish and within your diocese. You’ll be labeled a crackpot. When graviora delicta and grave abuses do pop-up your concerns will mean little. You’ll also harden both the pastor and the bishop to the concerns of those who will follow you.

We are human and as such, things are rarely black and white. Those that lack the tact, timing and finesse to deal with people will often be left frustrated and bitter that they are not able to effect change.

 

[benedictgal]

Your black-and-white viewpoint is naive and can cause problems on its own. If I witnessed any legitimate abuse I would certainly bring it to the attention of my pastor in the most tactful way possible. If he responded and took care of the matter, that’s wonderful. If he didn’t then one really needs to ascertain the gravity of the abuse and secondarily the likelihood it will receive due attention if one elevates it.

If it’s graviora delicta or even some grave abuse as defined by RS it would get fixed. 99% of the time I think the great majority of pastors would be quick to address and fix such problems. I would make it my duty to elevate and follow through on the remaining 1% – no matter what.

If the abuse(s) were not graviora delicta or certain grave abuses and the pastor didn’t take action, I would take a very hard look at the playing field. Is the bishop going to do anything or is he going to ignore it as well? Ask around at your parish and others to see if the specific abuse(s) are tacitly allowed in your diocese. If they are, any further actions of mine would only be in the form of prayer.

Either way – you have done your duty.

Why not push it? Because eventually you’ll lose any and all influence after awhile at your parish and within your diocese. You’ll be labeled a crackpot. When graviora delicta and grave abuses do pop-up your concerns will mean little. You’ll also harden both the pastor and the bishop to the concerns of those who will follow you.

We are human and as such, things are rarely black and white. Those that lack the tact, timing and finesse to deal with people will often be left frustrated and bitter that they are not able to effect change.

If I recall, Jesus addressed many issues in black and white, especially where marriage is concerned. It’s been said that Satan’s favorite color is grey. The problem is that this color has also become the favorite shade of many people, and that leads to apathy and indifference.

Redemptionis Sacramentum makes very clear what the abuses are. The only legitimate use of creativity comes when choosing which propers, prayers and readings you are going to use for special liturgies, with the understanding that the choices must come from approved sources. But, that is where the flexibility ends.