S
silentium
Guest
How do you discern whether you have a calling to join a lay religious order or to become a permanent deacon? Is it possible to be both? Many thanks in advance for any guidance.
- Status
F
Fauken
Guest
Lay Dominican in formation here. We have a permanent Deacon who is a member of our chapter. As for discerning if you have a calling with a third order, I suggest you find a spirituality you feel called to practice and visit the chapter for that order.
S
silentium
Guest
Thank you for your rapid reply! And God bless you in your formation.
A
ajfrab
Guest
Calls come to people in different ways, yours may be vastly different than mine. A spiritual director can help. And yes, it is possible to be both. I have been a Benedictine Oblate for about 12 years now. And I was ordained as a Permanent Deacon 2 years ago.
C
commenter
Guest
First, a Permanent Deacon is a member of the clergy, no longer a layperson. That in itself is a detailed process, involving much prayer, discernment, involvement of your spouse (if married), and a specific commitment to ministry, for your diocese.
Joining a Third Order, or becoming for instance a Secular Franciscan, or whatever, is more a commitment to a certain spirituality, which can also overflow into ministry, but also some aspects of community life.
These two are not mutually exclusive, but I don’t think you would prepare for both at the same time.
F
Fauken
Guest
I’m not sure I agree with this. Lay Dominicans are members of the Order of Preachers. We are every bit as Dominican as those in the first and second orders. We make promises to follow the Rule of St. Dominic, not to follow Dominican spirituality. We wear scapulars, albeit smaller ones. I am very much discerning with a religious order, not a spirituality. If I just wanted to follow Dominican spirituality, I could do so outside the Dominicans, or become a Dominican associate instead of a lay Dominican.
D
Dan_Defender
Guest
The call is very personal and case-specific. This is something you have to discern for yourself through prayer, meditation and consulting with your priest/spiritual director.
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m female, so it’s pretty easy to discern I don’t have a calling to the diaconate 
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Eh, I think you’re being awfully broad about suggesting that third orders don’t include some commitment to ministry. There are lots and lots of third orders out there and they require different things. They are also not just places to practice a certain spirituality as the commitment goes beyond that (as Fauken said, we can practice spirituality without needing to join the order).
I do agree that you wouldn’t want to prepare for both diaconate and third order at the same time. You need to give each one your full attention, and if called to be both, join the second one at some point after you’ve gotten comfortably into the routine of the first one.
A
angel12
Guest
Same for the Discalced Carmelites – secular members are just as much a part of the order as the friars and nuns. That’s why the formation/discernment process is so long.
M
mrsdizzyd
Guest
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding amongst the faithful about exactly what it means to be a member of a third order. It’s a serious commitment.
F
Fauken
Guest
Exactly. We are not a fan club. We are members of the Order of Preachers Third Order Secular. In a few years, I will be Fauken O.P. if God wills it and I and the community discern I’m called to it. I am (or rather, will be) obligated to pray the LOTH just like the brothers and sisters. I can be buried in the full Dominican habit when I die.
We are the lay sons and daughters of our Holy Father, St. Dominic and our lay Order is nearly as old as the rest of the Order.
D
Diaconia
Guest
Discerning any sort of vocation requires time, prayer and direction.
Typically diaconal vocations are seen by others around you, your involvement in parish life, etc. many times approached by your priest or another deacon.
Calling to a third/secular/lay Order is associated with your attraction to the charisms of the Order. The things the Order does, the way they were founded, the way they pray.
The most valuable tool for you to discern is a spiritual director. If you have already identified a third order you are attracted to, you can seek a member of that order that is involved with vocations and direction.
It’s not impossible to be both a deacon and a member of a third Order, but it is unusual. You would become one first, and years later discern the other, typically.
Deacon Christopher
Typically diaconal vocations are seen by others around you, your involvement in parish life, etc. many times approached by your priest or another deacon.
Calling to a third/secular/lay Order is associated with your attraction to the charisms of the Order. The things the Order does, the way they were founded, the way they pray.
The most valuable tool for you to discern is a spiritual director. If you have already identified a third order you are attracted to, you can seek a member of that order that is involved with vocations and direction.
It’s not impossible to be both a deacon and a member of a third Order, but it is unusual. You would become one first, and years later discern the other, typically.
Deacon Christopher
Last edited:
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
If you are being called toward the Diaconate, you need to focus on that and let the 3rd Order idea go, until you have where God want’s you ironed out.
I was in a Secular Order Discalced Carmelite group when I began discernment for the Diaconate. The Diaconate took 12 weeks, two nights a week for classes and one Sunday per month for workshops and seminars. It was very time consuming and often conflicted with OCDS meetings, so I just focused on discernment for the Diaconate.
Some 3rd Order Groups will not allow you to be a member of another institution while in formation… The OCDS let me go toward becoming a Deacon as my wife and myself had already made vows. However, I could see that being a Deacon and a member of the OCDS was going to have some problems schedule wise.
So pray on it and focus on just one.
Jim
I was in a Secular Order Discalced Carmelite group when I began discernment for the Diaconate. The Diaconate took 12 weeks, two nights a week for classes and one Sunday per month for workshops and seminars. It was very time consuming and often conflicted with OCDS meetings, so I just focused on discernment for the Diaconate.
Some 3rd Order Groups will not allow you to be a member of another institution while in formation… The OCDS let me go toward becoming a Deacon as my wife and myself had already made vows. However, I could see that being a Deacon and a member of the OCDS was going to have some problems schedule wise.
So pray on it and focus on just one.
Jim
Cloisters
Well-known member
Welcome, Silentium.
“Third Order Religious” is a term which deals with a specific form of consecrated religious life. For instance, the Nashville Dominicans were part of what used to be known as the Third Order of St. Dominic Regular. “Regular,” means “religious rule”. In the 1970s, the Dominicans declared themselves a family, so, as you will see after my moniker, I put the post-nomials for the Dominicans - OP. Officially, we are known as the Dominican Laity.
Associates are usually affiliated with a specific motherhouse. The formation might be different from the run-of-the-mill Dominican Laity.
Third Orders exist primarily in the mendicant orders. Augustinians have Seculars; Benedictines have Oblates. With the exception of the Franciscans and Carmelites, those mendicant orders who follow the Rule of St. Augustine have Third Orders. The First Order are the friars – priests and brothers; the Second Orders are the cloistered nuns; and then the Third Order, which is usually has two branches – Regular and Secular.
I know a Secular Discalced Carmelite who was ordained deacon for the Archdiocese of Louisville, KY, so yes, it’s possible. I’ve heard of diocesan priests who have become Third Order members, although I’ve never met one. @nunsuch knows of a Sister of Mercy who’s a Benedictine Oblate. She also knows of a Redemptorist priest who belongs to a Third Order, but I can’t remember which one.
Blessings,
Mrs Cloisters OP
Lay Dominican
http://cloisters.tripod.com/
http://cloisters.tripod.com/charity/
http://cloisters.tripod.com/holyangels/id9.html/
“Third Order Religious” is a term which deals with a specific form of consecrated religious life. For instance, the Nashville Dominicans were part of what used to be known as the Third Order of St. Dominic Regular. “Regular,” means “religious rule”. In the 1970s, the Dominicans declared themselves a family, so, as you will see after my moniker, I put the post-nomials for the Dominicans - OP. Officially, we are known as the Dominican Laity.
Associates are usually affiliated with a specific motherhouse. The formation might be different from the run-of-the-mill Dominican Laity.
Third Orders exist primarily in the mendicant orders. Augustinians have Seculars; Benedictines have Oblates. With the exception of the Franciscans and Carmelites, those mendicant orders who follow the Rule of St. Augustine have Third Orders. The First Order are the friars – priests and brothers; the Second Orders are the cloistered nuns; and then the Third Order, which is usually has two branches – Regular and Secular.
I know a Secular Discalced Carmelite who was ordained deacon for the Archdiocese of Louisville, KY, so yes, it’s possible. I’ve heard of diocesan priests who have become Third Order members, although I’ve never met one. @nunsuch knows of a Sister of Mercy who’s a Benedictine Oblate. She also knows of a Redemptorist priest who belongs to a Third Order, but I can’t remember which one.
Blessings,
Mrs Cloisters OP
Lay Dominican
http://cloisters.tripod.com/
http://cloisters.tripod.com/charity/
http://cloisters.tripod.com/holyangels/id9.html/
G
GiftofMercy
Guest
Yes it is possible to be both. Talk to your Vocations person and the Lay Formations people of the order you would like to join.
Last edited:
O
otjm
Guest
Requirements for the deaconate vary by diocese. I have no idea what the discernment process may be, but once one is accepted as a (?) candidate, one is in a 5 year program resulting in a Masters, and then ordination.
And for whatever is it worth, the two are different but not necessarily conflicting callings.
And for whatever is it worth, the two are different but not necessarily conflicting callings.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
For my dioceses, there was a 12 week discernment period. In this process, both the aspirant and his wife attended Mass followed by class, two nights per week. They covered the history of the diaconate, the requirements, the sacrament of Holy Orders and the various ministries a deacon could be placed in. The classes were taught by professors from Holy Cross College. They also brought in current deacons to speak with us about their experience as deacons. Then they brought in the wives of deacons to speak with us about their experience.
There was also a psychological screening process by a psychologist.
After 12 weeks, if the person was accepted into the program, and that person agreed to continue, they began a five year study and preparation in becoming a deacon.
Of the 25 men who began the discernment process, five entered the program, but only four ended up being ordained five years later. One dropped out two weeks before ordination. Of the four left, three were retired and one was a teacher at the Catholic High School where the classes were held.
It was grueling, but gave us a taste of what the next five years would be, if we chose to go on. I chose not to, as I didn’t feel called to be a deacon.
I haven’t regretted by decision not to become a deacon at all.
I could have continued with the Secular Discalced Carmelites OCDS, and I had already made vows. However, for new aspirants and novices, it would’ve been difficult during the five year training process in the diaconate. After ordination if assigned to a parish, which most deacons were, it wouldn’t have been easier. I had already made vows with the OCDS group, but for new people, formation in the OCDS is also a five year process, studying St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross and attending monthly meetings. Responsibilities as a Deacon would trumped the OCDS requirements in attending meetings. The spirituality part of being a DIscalced Carmelite would’ve been fine as a deacon and even beneficial.
Jim
There was also a psychological screening process by a psychologist.
After 12 weeks, if the person was accepted into the program, and that person agreed to continue, they began a five year study and preparation in becoming a deacon.
Of the 25 men who began the discernment process, five entered the program, but only four ended up being ordained five years later. One dropped out two weeks before ordination. Of the four left, three were retired and one was a teacher at the Catholic High School where the classes were held.
It was grueling, but gave us a taste of what the next five years would be, if we chose to go on. I chose not to, as I didn’t feel called to be a deacon.
I haven’t regretted by decision not to become a deacon at all.
I could have continued with the Secular Discalced Carmelites OCDS, and I had already made vows. However, for new aspirants and novices, it would’ve been difficult during the five year training process in the diaconate. After ordination if assigned to a parish, which most deacons were, it wouldn’t have been easier. I had already made vows with the OCDS group, but for new people, formation in the OCDS is also a five year process, studying St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross and attending monthly meetings. Responsibilities as a Deacon would trumped the OCDS requirements in attending meetings. The spirituality part of being a DIscalced Carmelite would’ve been fine as a deacon and even beneficial.
Jim
Last edited:
N
nunsuch
Guest
As Mrs. Cloisters said, I do know a Sister of Mercy (also a college professor and theologian) who is a Benedictine Oblate. However, the Redemptorist priest to whom she refers is not a member of a Third Order but, rather, an Associate with an active community of Sisters (interestingly, not one with Redemptorist spirituality). In the interests of confidentiality, I won’t say more, as I don’t have his permission.
Associates are somewhat different from members of Third Orders or Oblates. What being an Associate “means” varies considerably depending on the community involved. But it is another form of affiliation with religious life for those not called to vowed membership. If people are interested, I can post more about this, but I think it would best be done in its own thread.
Associates are somewhat different from members of Third Orders or Oblates. What being an Associate “means” varies considerably depending on the community involved. But it is another form of affiliation with religious life for those not called to vowed membership. If people are interested, I can post more about this, but I think it would best be done in its own thread.
M
mrsdizzyd
Guest
I’d love to read more about associates if you have the time to pull such a thread together. Thank you.
- Status