Laymen involved in the celebration of the Mass

[At_Trent]

You statement makes no sense.

What if there are no deacons which is often the case?

Why just to “MANY Eucharistic ministers?”

Why not address the case where a licit number of EMsHC are employed along with clergy to reverently distribute communion?

You ever read the conditions that must be met to allow EMHC in the first place ?

 

[ProVobis]

The need for ushers is real and it’s a ministry. I am in awe of a really great usher–he can discern where there’s ‘room for one more’ in a pew and corkscrew the person in there. Absolutely amazing.

Indeed. Not enough aisle seats if you ask me.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Our parish is rather large, and If laymen didn’t help the priest distribute the Eucharist, it would take all day to get through communion.

What’s the problem with waiting for Jesus?

 

[Ockham]

Not sure why, but today at the EF I attend on Sunday, I watched as a 94 old priest gave Communion to hundreds by himself. There is usually a Deacon or another priest there to help. He seemed exhausted by the time all had received, and for the last few minutes of Communion I prayed for him.

On weekdays, the OF I attend has EMHC’s for a group of 45-60 I really find that to be excessive.

Two good examples of the EMHC.

In cases where the priest is physically unable to distribute Holy Communion, EMHCs can be ‘deputized’ to assist. This is supposed to be a rare and practically emergency case by case only.

Alas, most Novus Ordo parishes take a mile when given an inch and take this exceptional rule to abusive levels. Many parishes have regularly scheduled EMHCs thus violating the spirit of the law. Many weekday Masses of few numbers have EMHCs obviously not for expedientary purposes so it begs the question as to motivation.

Most layman ministries are perhaps well intentioned yet misinformed attempts at “active participation”. If more people paid attention during Mass we wouldn’t have these artificial ministries so a minority can feel self-fulfilled during the liturgy outside of the original intent.

 

[Timothysis]

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

Well, THIS layman helps with the collections every week and also brings the wine and water for father to consecrate into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I didn’t ask to do this, I was approached because there was a need and have been doing it ever since. My recompense is that I get an “extra” blessing from father for my/our efforts. Monsignor even sent me a Christmas card thanking me for my help. Thank you for denigrating my small service to the Church.

 

[Phemie]

You ever read the conditions that must be met to allow EMHC in the first place ?

I have, they were set with Immensae Caritatis, and reiterated in Inaestimabile Donum, Ecclesia de Mysterio & Redemptionis Sacramentum. Unfortunately they were generally ignored. In fact, I’ve had a priest get very angry at me for bringing it up and yell at me “We have never listened to Rome on this and we’re not about to start now!”

In my parish there is need for 1 EMHC to offer Communion from the Chalice. That should be it, since less than 50% of those who go to Communion receive from the chalice.

The pastor did quite OK giving out Communion by himself when H1N1 was a concern and the Chalice was not offered. His being alone added a whole 5 minutes to the Mass. But as soon as Swine flu stopped being a concern we were back to a second EMHC for the Hosts and 2 for the Precious Blood on Sundays (approx 150 people).

 

[airforcemom]

My church is small but Fr handles two parishes so he is very busy. We do not have an extra priest or deacon to help. Without our readers and Communion Ministers he might not make it to his next Mass. We only have one isle - people go up to Fr to receive the host and can go to either side if they wish to receive from the Cup and then return to their seats. We have been doing this since the 80s and it has worked well. We have had numerous priests in that time and not one has changed anything. I have been both a reader and a Communion Minister since the 80s. I also lead the Rosary before Mass - a tradition we will be starting again in the next 2-3 weeks since we just got our new speaker system following Katrina. I do not consider myself above any of the parishioners in the pews and I’ll do anything I can to help them, my pastor, or my church so that it can continue to serve and grow. Would I love a Latin Mass - you bet - would I love not to have to “help” - you bet - but I feel help is needed and I am glad the Lord has tapped me to serve.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Well, THIS layman helps with the collections every week and also brings the wine and water for father to consecrate into the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I didn’t ask to do this, I was approached because there was a need and have been doing it ever since. My recompense is that I get an “extra” blessing from father for my/our efforts. Monsignor even sent me a Christmas card thanking me for my help. Thank you for denigrating my small service to the Church.

Good work! Please don’t take this thread seriously…

This is an example of some outrageous (and erroneous) comments that are also deeply offensive. My question from another thread would be “do people who agree with the OP identify themselves as ‘traditional Catholics?’”’

 

[ChurchTorch]

My parish is very crowded, so the ushers, who function as greeters, are essential to getting everyone a seat. If you arrive ten minutes before Mass starts with your wife and two kids, good luck finding a pew with seats for four without them.

Many people are called to a lay vocation, but they still want to participate in other areas of the Mass than praying in the pew. Yes, both are valid, and in reality, everyone there who participates in spirit is participating as much as anyone else, but some people like it. I don’t see any reason to knock it.

Furthermore, if I were to visit an EF Mass, and I weren’t Catholic, I’d be completely shocked. I wouldn’t be able to understand anything. No one would explain anything to me. It’d look like a weird, creepy cult. Greeters could fix that and make people want to come back.

It’s not a useless position. Especially when you need them as ushers.

Good point.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Good work! Please don’t take this thread seriously…

This is an example of some outrageous (and erroneous) comments that are also deeply offensive. My question from another thread would be “do people who agree with the OP identify themselves as ‘traditional Catholics?’”’

Comments from the Traditionals have been no more offensive than you saying they only call themselves Traditional out of stupidity.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Comments from the Traditionals have been no more offensive than you saying they only call themselves Traditional out of stupidity.

Your words, not mine.

What I do find HIGHLY OFFENSIVE are people who reject what the Catholic Church actually directs for what they personally feel is correct UNDER THE GUISE of “traditional Catholicism.” High-jacking traditionalism like that is exceedingly offensive.

I still wonder how widespread it is?

 

[Timothysis]

Comments from the Traditionals have been no more offensive than you saying they only call themselves Traditional out of stupidity.

Either you are mistaken or just plain dishonest because ChurchTorch did not call anyone stupid.

I wonder what you would think if some service that you performed for the Church was said to not “accomplish anything productive.”

 

[pnewton]

Another thread addressing an element that has nothing to do with the Tridentine Mass. Imagine that. Perhaps being seated at a TLM is not a problem, but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the current liturgy can really pack them in sometimes.

I the OP does not feel these jobs are important, then they are not for him. There is not legitimate ministry of throwing stones at others, at least in most parishes.

 

[ProVobis]

There is not legitimate ministry of throwing stones at others, at least in most parishes.

They may be legitimate but, sometimes with too many of them, they can be very distracting, especially when you’re supposed to be focused on the readings for the day and people are coming in late. But you’re right, the EF can have too many distractions as well.

In any case, these distractions should be kept to a minimum. It is the House of God, after all, and some do want to pray.

 

[Aramis]

Lay readers, Ushers, and lay altar servers have been authorized for well over a century; lay altar servers for more than that by a good margin.

Ordained lectors were permitted as well, as were ordained acolytes, and preferred to laymen, but still, not common.

In the full high mass of the middle ages, the deacon read the gospel, which was held by the subdeacon; the subdeacon read the epistle held by the lector. The subdeacon and deacon assisted the priest, and the acolytes assisted them.

But in the simpler forms of the mass, the lector read the epistle, the acolyte assisted the priest or deacon, and the priest or deacon read the Gospel, held by the lector or the acolyte, or even the lay reader.

It’s nothing new even in the West, to have laymen in liturgical ministries.

 

[Poco]

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread because it answers a question I had today. :clapping:

First let me say, I’m an Episcopalian (yeah, I know, the farm club, Catholic light, as an old Irish Catholic friend of mine described it ) trying to convert to Catholic. You folks don’t make it easy!

Anyway, in my Episcopal church we had “lay readers” and “ushers” who provided a necessary and valuable service.

Kudos Tim!

However today it just seemed, for lack of a better word, odd, to see “plainclothes” folks distributing the Eucharist. I don’t mean to put anybody down. I’ve just never seen that before.

 

[At_Trent]

I have, they were set with Immensae Caritatis, and reiterated in Inaestimabile Donum, Ecclesia de Mysterio & Redemptionis Sacramentum. Unfortunately they were generally ignored. In fact, I’ve had a priest get very angry at me for bringing it up and yell at me “We have never listened to Rome on this and we’re not about to start now!”

In my parish there is need for 1 EMHC to offer Communion from the Chalice. That should be it, since less than 50% of those who go to Communion receive from the chalice.

The pastor did quite OK giving out Communion by himself when H1N1 was a concern and the Chalice was not offered. His being alone added a whole 5 minutes to the Mass. But as soon as Swine flu stopped being a concern we were back to a second EMHC for the Hosts and 2 for the Precious Blood on Sundays (approx 150 people).

“We have never listened to Rome on this and we’re not about to start now!”
Wow. Says it all. The practice itself was born of liberty taken with the Liturgy by those who had no authority to do so. Right from the get go.

I found this wonderful explanation, a sermon really, of why we should not even be receiving in the hand to start with.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/03/as-bishop-i-cannot-be-silent.html

 

[SHoJ]

**He alone gives communion with the assistance of an Altar boy or perhaps a Deacon. Why can’t the OF priest do the same? **

This might be easily done if there are about 100 people at Mass (like there are at our local EF Mass), but no when there are 1000 people receiving the Eucharist.

**Are laymen who serve as readers, EMsHC, greeters, et cetera putting themselves above the people in the pews?

Or are those who attribute that motivation to them, and call them on it, doing so?**

I can speak only for myself, but I don’t put myself above anyone else; I’m just answering the call. I started my liturgical ministry by being called as a reader. I accepted that call because I thought, “I’m at Mass anyway, and it will take some of the burden off of the priest and deacons.” I answered the call to be a EMHC because of the large number of people at Mass and because of the lack of reverence some of the EMHC’s seemed to have. I answered the call to be a cantor (after several months of battling my fears) after the cantor didn’t show up one morning and there was no ‘back up’. Nowadays I rarely serve as reader or EMHC because my main way to serve is as cantor, but Father knows he can ask me to step in when needed and I will do what he asks with respect and reverence.

**In my parish there is need for 1 EMHC to offer Communion from the Chalice. That should be it, since less than 50% of those who go to Communion receive from the chalice. **

Technically, there is supposed to be two people distributing the Precious Blood for each person distributing the Precious Body . . . . but that doesn’t always happen, does it?

 

[At_Trent]

Two good examples of the EMHC.

In cases where the priest is physically unable to distribute Holy Communion, EMHCs can be ‘deputized’ to assist. This is supposed to be a rare and practically emergency case by case only.

Alas, most Novus Ordo parishes take a mile when given an inch and take this exceptional rule to abusive levels. Many parishes have regularly scheduled EMHCs thus violating the spirit of the law. Many weekday Masses of few numbers have EMHCs obviously not for expedientary purposes so it begs the question as to motivation.

Most layman ministries are perhaps well intentioned yet misinformed attempts at “active participation”. If more people paid attention during Mass we wouldn’t have these artificial ministries so a minority can feel self-fulfilled during the liturgy outside of the original intent.

It’s just all wrong. It came out of nowhere, the majority of the Bishops didn’t want it, and like you say, it’s abused. And far too many of those who do not take the Cup walk right by without a gesture of adoration or respect.

I don’t know what an individual EMHC get’s out of the ministry. Perhaps there are those who take it very seriously and have moved closer to perfection for it.

Even so, it wasn’t introduced by Rome and it wasn’t orthodox.

 

[Phemie]

Technically, there is supposed to be two people distributing the Precious Blood for each person distributing the Precious Body . . . . but that doesn’t always happen, does it?

No, there is no such rule.

If everyone who receives Communion receives from the Cup too then the ratio of 2:1 makes sense just to keep things flowing. But when fewer than 50% (in our parish it’s probably about 30%) do so there is no need for such a ratio. On Saturdays our congregation numbers anywhere from 25-50. You really don’t need 2 Ministers of the Cup to deal with that.