Laypeople - Any Recourse for Bad Priests

[sttcatherinefan]

I’m not sure where to put this but I was wondering if the laypeople have any course against a specific priest. I was reading the thread about female dress over on the Family Life Thread and the link about the young woman considered with immodest dress who is denied Communion without any warning just made me so sad. I was wondering if a layperson had any recourse in that situation. It seems like the priest was acting horribly in that situation,

I also wonder in general what recourse the laity have if the priest is just not a nice person. I don’t care the ideology but someone who just doesn’t like people and is a bit arrogant. I’ve met some nice priests but other priests who bully people who they don’t like and who are very interested in donors. Does a layperson have any recourse against a pastor when they are being bullied?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m not sure where to put this but I was wondering if the laypeople have any course against a specific priest. I was reading the thread about female dress over on the Family Life Thread and the link about the young woman considered with immodest dress who is denied Communion without any warning just made me so sad. I was wondering if a layperson had any recourse in that situation. It seems like the priest was acting horribly in that situation,

I also wonder in general what recourse the laity have if the priest is just not a nice person. I don’t care the ideology but someone who just doesn’t like people and is a bit arrogant. I’ve met some nice priests but other priests who bully people who they don’t like and who are very interested in donors. Does a layperson have any recourse against a pastor when they are being bullied?

First of all, I think you need to change the title of this thread. What makes a “bad” priest? He appears arrogant? He denied communion to an immodestly dressed woman? that may be a bad decision, but that does not make him a bad priest, and in fact, in some people’s eyes it makes him a good one!

If a person was unjustly denied Communion, the recourse is to go the Bishop, but everything must be carefully documented. As to the charge of “bullying” and the priest is “arrogant” or “very interested in donors”–that is just plain gossip and opinion and you should just point that out to the people making the accusations. If they have a problem with the priest, they should talk with the priest themselves. But statements like that are judgmental, gossipy, and should not be repeated. If someone feel they are being bullied, they should document why and take it up with the priest, not sit around and complain about it to other parishoners.

 

[aTraditionalist]

If a priest denied communion to a scandalously clad women, then she should probably rethink her wardrobe choices. His actions most likely reflected what everyone else was thinking and we should automatically support him in such a call. If she dresses like that for Mass, then I’m inclined to think she has poor faith formation. Thus she probably has little respect nor understanding of the sacraments. As you can see, this could unravel further and that’s not even considering the distraction she is causing.

This is recourse for the laity when they are truly wronged but this is not such a case.

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[Jesus_Caritas]

Write to your bishop and tell him exactly how you feel, and the circumstances. Write personal and confidential on the note and envelope. These guys drive more away from the faith…not about doctrine, but a nasty personality. He is a person like any other person and needs to be called to common curisity.

 

[po18guy]

I’m not sure where to put this but I was wondering if the laypeople have any course against a specific priest. I was reading the thread about female dress over on the Family Life Thread and the link about the young woman considered with immodest dress who is denied Communion without any warning just made me so sad. I was wondering if a layperson had any recourse in that situation. It seems like the priest was acting horribly in that situation,

I also wonder in general what recourse the laity have if the priest is just not a nice person. I don’t care the ideology but someone who just doesn’t like people and is a bit arrogant. I’ve met some nice priests but other priests who bully people who they don’t like and who are very interested in donors. Does a layperson have any recourse against a pastor when they are being bullied?

What we want to avoid is the sin of rash judgment. Priests constantly note that in our sex-saturated society, there are cases of clearly immodestly dressed women presenting themselves for communion. Never mind the priest - what does God think about someone proudly displaying various body parts? A buffed guy in a muscle shirt is also totally inappropriate.

 

[Cricket2]

As we all have personality quirks one cannot complain about a priest or suggest that a priest is a “bad priest” because of something like this. However, observable behaviors like bullying, mistreating others, poor management of parish affairs, suspected abuse…all of these can be reported to the Archdiocese in question. All priests are supervised via appropriate staff of the Archdiocese they are assigned to and by the Bishop.

As for the appropriate nature of a woman’s dress for Mass, or even a man’s, the Priest may very well be doing the right thing. We live in a society that seems to think anything goes in that area, but at Church and for the Faithful that is not true. I have, unfortunately, seen way too many people dress in ways that are totally out of line with modesty. And, no I am not talking about being poor and not having fancy, dress-up options. I am talking about modesty.

Women should not be wearing shirts and dresses or blouses that leave a lot of cleavage for all too see, or skirts and pants so tight you can determine what every inch of the body looks like. Men should avoid those pants that hang off their back side, or frankly, tanks that let every inch of skin possible show up. Typically they should not wear hats, though exceptions can be made for medical reasons.

Attire should be neat and clean, cover well and not be excessively revealing. There really is nothing attractive about clothing that lets every inch of leg, cleavage and fanny hang out. Never has been and it certainly is not modest.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Well. If it is up to the priest to decide how people dress, then would he be able to deny a woman who chooses to wear jeans Communion? I’m using the woman who is scantily clad as an example based on another thread. Apparently a young teen wearing a sundress was denied Communion because her sundress had spaghetti straps. No one told her that it was “immodest” and compared to many outfits it probably wasn’t. Many wedding dresses, for instance, are strapless nowadays and they tend to be pretty demure.

I’m just wondering in general if there is any recourse other than writing to the bishop about a priest who may be a bully or even just not a good fit for a parish. These priests might be put in place by specific bishops and might be favorites. If the bishop rejects the appeal, would the parishioners have any legal recourse?

 

[po18guy]

Well. If it is up to the priest to decide how people dress, then would he be able to deny a woman who chooses to wear jeans Communion? I’m using the woman who is scantily clad as an example based on another thread. Apparently a young teen wearing a sundress was denied Communion because her sundress had spaghetti straps. No one told her that it was “immodest” and compared to many outfits it probably wasn’t. Many wedding dresses, for instance, are strapless nowadays and they tend to be pretty demure.

I’m just wondering in general if there is any recourse other than writing to the bishop about a priest who may be a bully or even just not a good fit for a parish. These priests might be put in place by specific bishops and might be favorites. If the bishop rejects the appeal, would the parishioners have any legal recourse?

It is a human trait for us to be more upset about something than those who actually experienced it.

 

[Joy2day]

It is a human trait for us to be more upset about something than those who actually experienced it.

I dont think this is true. I think if u witness some bad behaviour you should report it even if the ‘victim’ doesnt. The injured party may well be v.upset, but simply not have the energy to go through the process of complaining. Maybe this is not the first time they have received bad treatment, & have simply run out of puff. If someone else were to assist, u might actually be championing a great justice that the injured person is too tired to do, as well as allievating the problem of ‘proof’ - because you were a witness!

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

If a priest denied communion to a scandalously clad women, then she should probably rethink her wardrobe choices. His actions most likely reflected what everyone else was thinking and we should automatically support him in such a call. If she dresses like that for Mass, then I’m inclined to think she has poor faith formation. Thus she probably has little respect nor understanding of the sacraments. As you can see, this could unravel further and that’s not even considering the distraction she is causing.

This is recourse for the laity when they are truly wronged but this is not such a case.

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Priests can only deny communion to someone for very limited reasons. Immodest dress is not one of them. Now you’re making judgments on this person, which is why priests are generally not allowed to deny people communion unless it’s for a very good reason (ie: pro-abortion politicians).

That being said, it would be wise of parishioners to stay out of other people’s business.

 

[maryjk]

If a priest denied communion to a scandalously clad women, then she should probably rethink her wardrobe choices. His actions most likely reflected what everyone else was thinking and we should automatically support him in such a call. If she dresses like that for Mass, then I’m inclined to think she has poor faith formation. Thus she probably has little respect nor understanding of the sacraments. As you can see, this could unravel further and that’s not even considering the distraction she is causing.

This is recourse for the laity when they are truly wronged but this is not such a case.

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You got all of that from someone saying a priest denied Communion because of someone’s dress?

I couldn’t imagine making judgements like that about anyone, let alone someone I had never met.

 

[otjm]

Priests can only deny communion to someone for very limited reasons. Immodest dress is not one of them. Now you’re making judgments on this person, which is why priests are generally not allowed to deny people communion unless it’s for a very good reason (ie: pro-abortion politicians).

That being said, it would be wise of parishioners to stay out of other people’s business.

It has been too long since I have visited this question, but my recollection is that a priest, on his own initiative, cannot deny anyone Communion if they present themselves. That - the decision to deny someone Communion - is within only the providence of the bishop, as I recall reading. That, of course, is subject to challenge as I can’t find the topic right now.

The discussion was specifically about denying politicians Communion.

In any event, to deny someone Communion, when the matter could have been handled less publicly and at another time (like as Mass ended) would probably have been better for everyone.

Trying to define what is immodest dress is at best a hazardous venture. The range of opinions is so wide that it defies any standard.

 

[aTraditionalist]

maryjk:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

If a priest denied communion to a scandalously clad women, then she should probably rethink her wardrobe choices. His actions most likely reflected what everyone else was thinking and we should automatically support him in such a call. If she dresses like that for Mass, then I’m inclined to think she has poor faith formation. Thus she probably has little respect nor understanding of the sacraments. As you can see, this could unravel further and that’s not even considering the distraction she is causing.

This is recourse for the laity when they are truly wronged but this is not such a case.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

You got all of that from someone saying a priest denied Communion because of someone’s dress?

I couldn’t imagine making judgements like that about anyone, let alone someone I had never met.

We make judgement calls all the time based on limited amounts of information. Based on the OPs info, I can logically deduce that this is most likely not the holiest of women. If she can’t nail modesty, then chastity is off the table, the logically there may be other issues with the 6th and 9th commandments. Let’s look at the other end of the spectrum. Maybe the priest knew her, and knew of a state of mortal sin. Either way, support him. I’m not in a position to make those calls, obviously I’m not a priest, but if you should believe that scantily clad women do offend Our Lord. At a minimum, that’s enough for me.

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[sttcatherinefan]

We make judgement calls all the time based on limited amounts of information. Based on the OPs info, I can logically deduce that this is most likely not the holiest of women. If she can’t nail modesty, then chastity is off the table, the logically there may be other issues with the 6th and 9th commandments. Let’s look at the other end of the spectrum. Maybe the priest knew her, and knew of a state of mortal sin. Either way, support him. I’m not in a position to make those calls, obviously I’m not a priest, but if you should believe that scantily clad women do offend Our Lord. At a minimum, that’s enough for me.

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I have larger concerns that I am getting at but the story for my question was a 14-year-old girl. I don’t think that most fourteen year old girls in question are out whoring themselves, especially those that attend Mass with their moms. The priest didn’t even tell her why she was denying her Communion. The dress was probably a fairly normal teen sundress. jimmyakin.com/2006/09/spagheti_strap_.html

And if we are going to start denying women Communion based on clothing. How about this? I show up to Church in jeans regularly. I live in an old building and cannot have a washer in my apartment so I generally do wash before Church and other errands. (The laundry mat is near the Church.) Could a priest deny me Communion? Padre Pio certainly had an issue with women wearing pants in general.

The reason for this query however is more serious than this. My current pastor is retiring and a new one will be coming in. I’m a bit concerned about the whole situation because the Church I attend is more charismatic. I’m concerned about a younger more traditional priest coming in and beginning to do things differently. For instance, can a priest just decide to not give Communion by Hand or say Mass with his backs to the people or in Latin? (This obviously goes for a more traditional parish as well. Could a liberal priest come in and start with liturgical dance and polka Masses?) Each parish has their own style and I think that it works for that parish. Would parishioners have any recourse in this situation?

 

[aTraditionalist]

The simple answer in no, IMO. Everything you just described, minus the liturgical abuse, is licit. The bigger issue I’d look into is my own obedience. If the priest issues a dress code, then comply. If he refuses communion in the hand, well comply. Obedience is a hard trait to achieve. Embrace tradition and orthodoxy. In almost 2000 years of the Church, most of what you described is more or less part of a recent crisis. If you have to rearrange your laundry schedule in order to attend Mass, then you change your schedule and don’t wear jeans.

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[otjm]

I’m not sure where to put this but I was wondering if the laypeople have any course against a specific priest. I was reading the thread about female dress over on the Family Life Thread and the link about the young woman considered with immodest dress who is denied Communion without any warning just made me so sad. I was wondering if a layperson had any recourse in that situation. It seems like the priest was acting horribly in that situation,

I also wonder in general what recourse the laity have if the priest is just not a nice person. I don’t care the ideology but someone who just doesn’t like people and is a bit arrogant. I’ve met some nice priests but other priests who bully people who they don’t like and who are very interested in donors. Does a layperson have any recourse against a pastor when they are being bullied?

To answer your last question: yes, and maybe.

The “yes”: people vote with their feet. Technically, you are a member of the parish in which you physically reside, and there are certain responsibilities which come with that. Having said that, if a situation became unbearable, many people would choose (as they already do) and vote with their feet - that is, they would attend Mass in another parish.

As to being bullied: what is bullying to one person is proper conduct to another (as they see things differently), and terrorism to someone who has a more fragile disposition. By that, I mean the person who somewhat comes apart at the seams with a misplaced word. One can always try to report to the bishop, but unless there is really strong evidence that matters are seriously out of line, and unless one has strong evidence of it (e.g. a tape, or video - assuming no state laws are violated) and/or other parishioners who are also willing to join in with their evidence, the likelihood of finding redress is slim and none. There are few enough priests around as it is, and moving one, or removing them from parish ministry, stands little or no chance.

As to your comment about traditional priests among the younger ones, it has been my observation (and granted, in the last 10 years it is not hugely extensive) that the young ones love Christ, are on fire with an evangelical attitude, and are trying by and large to, along with the last two popes and the current one, implement correctly Vatican 2. Rubrics are set, so how much they follow certain aspects allowed as opposed to other aspects allowed is within their legal right, but a smart priest does not come in and make radical changes to a parish. And no, it is highly unlikely that any priest would come in and say the OF all in Latin unless there was a very substantial part of the parish which wanted that; people vote with their feet, and they do so quickly.

Will you get a priest comfortable with and knowledgeable of the charismatic movement? Perhaps, if the bishop has one, and can move them there. Does that mean that if he doesn’t, that aspect will change? Not necessarily.

Keep in mind that ultimately, God is in charge. Pray, and encourage others in your parish to pray, the God will send the pastor your parish needs (notice, I did not say “wants”). Trust God, pray, and give the new pastor a chance. He is not giving his life to God because of a whim.

We had a pastor for 15 or more years, and those who disagreed with his building a school left; and others moved in to take their place. the school is thriving. We now have a new pastor, and people, after 2 years, are kind of shaking their heads and saying "How did we get this (lucky) (graced) (privileged) (blessed) - you name it. And they still love the old pastor (he has filled in occasionally).

God is in charge.

 

[OraLabora]

From today’s monastic lectionary, a homily from St. John Chrystostom on St Paul’s second letter to Timothy:

Reverence him (the priest), in that he every day ministers to you, causes the Scriptures to be read, sets the house in order for you, watches for you, prays for you, stands imploring God on your behalf, offers supplications for you, for you is all his worship. Reverence all this, think of this, and approach him with pious respect. Say not, he is wicked. What of that? He that is not wicked, does he of himself bestow upon you these great benefits? By no means. Everything works according to your faith. Not even the righteous man can benefit you, if you are unfaithful, nor the unrighteous harm you, if you are faithful. God, when He would save His people, wrought for the ark by Oxen. 1 Samuel 6:12 Is it the good life or the virtue of the Priest that confers so much on you? The gifts which God bestows are not such as to be effects of the virtue of the Priest. All is of grace. His part is but to open his mouth, while God works all: the Priest only performs a symbol.