Layperson Being Removed from All Ministries?

[hopefull]

A friend of mine was removed from all ministries by her pastor after she prepared a complaint to the diocese about a number of things he had done (and he had failed to correct any, but instead escalated the abuse against her, seemingly trying to get her to leave at least the church over which he presided.) Her complaints included several items of liturgical abuse, some of which is now fixed, some financial questions, and recounting the verbal and email sarcasm, denigration and abuse she believed she had personally suffered from him. The verbal and email abuse was significant; for example, saying things in front of others (when she questioned an errant teaching) that she “thinks she has a degree in theology because she listens to EWTN”. (He seems to really dislike EWTN.)

A few days after she gave him a draft copy of her complaint (hoping this would be one last chance for him to stop doing what he had been doing to her), he removed her from all ministries, which included lector, EMHC, and sacristan. He also removed her from all “ministries”, including all committees such as the liturgy committee, changed the locks to the church so she could no longer enter to pray during the off hours (Church is closed all except 1-2 hours a week), forbid her from speaking out at any church events or from distributing any materials or information. She had purchased materials at her expense for a Bible Study to be held, and then he forbid her from holding the Bible Study on Parish property.

My purpose in writing is NOT to debate the specifics of any particular thing, nor to try to explain the situation in needless detail, but to ask the question:

DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS EVER BEEN TREATED THIS WAY IN THE CHURCH AND WHAT KINDS OF THINGS WERE THEY GUILTY OF THAT INCURRED SUCH ACTION? (Other than pedophilic priests who typically are removed from all ministries.) Clearly it is understood that the pastor has the right to remove people from ministries if he chooses, or not to admit them at all,. His rights are not being debated here. But have you ever seen such a broad retaliation when someone was doing those jobs very acceptably?

I would also say by way of background that this is a sixty-ish woman, a revert about 10 years ago, daily Mass-goer and communicant (in other parishes since hers doesn’t have daily Mass), confession at least once a month. There are no issues of anything like drugs, theft (she actually was a significant donor), child abuse, public lewdness, immoral lifestyle or anything other than what seems to be a personality conflict with the pastor, that especially arose over pastoral planning issues that were leading to closing churches. There were some seemingly outrageous activities that she objected to that could have needlessly hurt other parishioners and several of the churches. I could write more, but I don’t want to get off topic, which is asking about the circumstances in which you have ever seen such behavior from a pastor, and what the person had done to “deserve it.”

Thanks for any help and information anyone can provide.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A friend of mine was removed from all ministries by her pastor after she prepared a complaint to the diocese about a number of things he had done (and he had failed to correct any, but instead escalated the abuse against her, seemingly trying to get her to leave at least the church over which he presided.) Her complaints included several items of liturgical abuse, some of which is now fixed, some financial questions, and recounting the verbal and email sarcasm, denigration and abuse she believed she had personally suffered from him. The verbal and email abuse was significant; for example, saying things in front of others (when she questioned an errant teaching) that she “thinks she has a degree in theology because she listens to EWTN”. (He seems to really dislike EWTN.)

A few days after she gave him a draft copy of her complaint (hoping this would be one last chance for him to stop doing what he had been doing to her), he removed her from all ministries, which included lector, EMHC, and sacristan. He also removed her from all “ministries”, including all committees such as the liturgy committee, changed the locks to the church so she could no longer enter to pray during the off hours (Church is closed all except 1-2 hours a week), forbid her from speaking out at any church events or from distributing any materials or information. She had purchased materials at her expense for a Bible Study to be held, and then he forbid her from holding the Bible Study on Parish property.

My purpose in writing is NOT to debate the specifics of any particular thing, nor to try to explain the situation in needless detail, but to ask the question:

DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS EVER BEEN TREATED THIS WAY IN THE CHURCH AND WHAT KINDS OF THINGS WERE THEY GUILTY OF THAT INCURRED SUCH ACTION? (Other than pedophilic priests who typically are removed from all ministries.) Clearly it is understood that the pastor has the right to remove people from ministries if he chooses, or not to admit them at all,. His rights are not being debated here. But have you ever seen such a broad retaliation when someone was doing those jobs very acceptably?

I would also say by way of background that this is a sixty-ish woman, a revert about 10 years ago, daily Mass-goer and communicant (in other parishes since hers doesn’t have daily Mass), confession at least once a month. There are no issues of anything like drugs, theft (she actually was a significant donor), child abuse, public lewdness, immoral lifestyle or anything other than what seems to be a personality conflict with the pastor, that especially arose over pastoral planning issues that were leading to closing churches. There were some seemingly outrageous activities that she objected to that could have needlessly hurt other parishioners and several of the churches. I could write more, but I don’t want to get off topic, which is asking about the circumstances in which you have ever seen such behavior from a pastor, and what the person had done to “deserve it.”

Thanks for any help and information anyone can provide.

Yes, I know of someone, me… I have in the past been treated by a pastor in this exact way. Tell her to not fear holding the Bible study in a place off church property. God may have other ideas also, to keep praying for Him to show her where He wants her to go and what He wants her to do. I would also suggest contacting the diocese and asking them to look into this pastors actions. Canon law provides certain protections of rights, for the faithful.

 

[hopefull]

Funny you should suggest moving to another church. She did exactly that and was welcomed at the Methodist Church to do Jeff Cavins Great Adventure Bible Study!

I am sorry you were treated like that. What would your pastor say was his reason, please?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Funny you should suggest moving to another church. She did exactly that and was welcomed at the Methodist Church to do Jeff Cavins Great Adventure Bible Study!

I am sorry you were treated like that. What would your pastor say was his reason, please?

It was interesting that he would not give any reason, to me or anyone else, even a vicar of the diocese could not get any answer. Dozens of parishioners, clergy, parish council members complained to him about what he did, but he would not explain anything to anyone. Some feel that my tending towards conservative teachings and practices and his more liberal lean was the reason. When people would ask about liturgical abuses, I would give them a straight answer and show them where to find the information for themselves. I think he got tired of hearing, why we shouldn’t… when trying to get the parish council to go along with certain “new” things. Chalk it up to conflicting personalities.

I myself once participated in a weekly Methodist Lectionary study. This particular church used the Common Lectionary so the readings were the exact readings that the Catholic Church used each week (with a few exceptions). I was able to freely present the Catholic interpretation and teachings based on the weekly readings. This went on for about two years! Until they changed pastors. The lectionary study dwindled, however I did continue to attend their adult “Sunday school” for a few months until that also dwindled to only a few.

 

[hopefull]

And that’s why the Pastor removed you from all ministries?

 

[otjm]

I guess she could appeal the issue to the diocese (from the OP it sounds as if the diocese entered into the fracas to some degree), but I suspect that she may not get far with the complaint. If there are other parishes nearby, she might consider going to another one - either on occasion, or re-registering in another and making that her spiritual home.

Not knowing the source of her complaints - I presume from the information given that at least sme were valid, although it is impossible to determing much - there is alwasy the old adage about not biting the hand that feeds you.

He can restrict, at least to some extent, her ability to do much of anything in the parish, but that does not preclude her from meeting with other parishoners. She also needs to keep in mind that charity must prevail, and that saying much of anything to anyone else can be a source of bitter scandal, if for no other reason than that comments repeated are rarely repeated accurately.

And then there is the advice from my mother, who was seriously unhappy with a priest in her parish: “I was here before he came, and I will be here after he leaves.”

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I guess she could appeal the issue to the diocese (from the OP it sounds as if the diocese entered into the fracas to some degree), but I suspect that she may not get far with the complaint. If there are other parishes nearby, she might consider going to another one - either on occasion, or re-registering in another and making that her spiritual home.

Not knowing the source of her complaints - I presume from the information given that at least sme were valid, although it is impossible to determing much - there is alwasy the old adage about not biting the hand that feeds you.

He can restrict, at least to some extent, her ability to do much of anything in the parish, but that does not preclude her from meeting with other parishoners. She also needs to keep in mind that charity must prevail, and that saying much of anything to anyone else can be a source of bitter scandal, if for no other reason than that comments repeated are rarely repeated accurately.

And then there is the advice from my mother, who was seriously unhappy with a priest in her parish: “I was here before he came, and I will be here after he leaves.”

You know I can personally tel you your mom is right!

 

[docholmes]

The Wheels of the Bus go Round and Round…Being Thrown under the Bus is never a pleasant thing, but as was said in the previous posts…Mom IS, Was, and will Always be Right

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Funny you should suggest moving to another church. She did exactly that and was welcomed at the Methodist Church to do Jeff Cavins Great Adventure Bible Study!

I am sorry you were treated like that. What would your pastor say was his reason, please?

I hope you meant moving the Bible study to the Methodist church.

 

[hopefull]

Absolutely. It was ONLY the Bible Study that moved to the Methodist Church, attended by all Catholics. I was in the Bible Study and we were treated very hospitably by the Methodist pastor. At the end, we all chipped in to give a donation to the Methodist Church. But we all are, and continue to be, faithful Catholics.

 

[puzzleannie]

we have one side of the story, that of the layperson. We do not have the pastor’s side, nor the (name removed by moderator)ut of other people in the parish who work with this person. So there is no way to judge the situation. In general, a layperson cannot take it upon herself to conduct a bible study or other type of class, or even a prayer group, and expect to use the name of the parish or parish communications to support it without the approval of the pastor. He is responsible for all such endeavors within his parish.

We had a similar situation in a former parish, a very active, involved contributing layperson was denied her application to the new diocesan lay ministry formation program. People were astounded because she seemed like the logical first choice for such a program. When she pushed the pastor, publicly berating him to his face in Church after Mass (after nasty letters to parish council members, bishop even the local paper making accusations similar to those in OP) he asked if she wanted the reasons made public. She said yes emphatically, so he said that she was already overcommitted, that he had preached many times on diocesan policy that lay people commit themselves to one ministry, so as to leave room for other new people to become involved in parish life.

He stated that he had repeatedly counselled her over the years that her over-commitment was posing a danger to her personal and family life and that he could not encourage her to take on more responsibilities. He further pointed out that her pattern had always been to make multiple commitments but to carry through on very few of them, raising problems for others. He further added that other people involved in all the activities she belonged to repeatedly complained to him about her uncooperative controlling attitude.

she of course left the parish at that point. shortly afterward their family business went bankrupt and her marriage broke down. her children seldom returned home after they went off to army, college and marriage, and those who know her say she continues to be controlling and domineering in her new non-denominational congregation.

I am by no means making a direct comparison with the story in OP, merely illustrating why a one-sided discussion of such cases is not going to be very useful, because there is always going to be a “rest of the story” that we don’t know.

 

[hopefull]

Thank you for the response. But I am going to try to keep us on the thread which is NOT about taking sides on this particular issue, but only trying to find out, when a parishioner has been REMOVED FROM ALL MINISTRIES, what has been the reason?

The case of not being admitted to new ministries is somewhat different, and I give that pastor a lot of credit for citing his reasons. The decision to leave that church was apparently hers. This is a very different case, but I am NOT asking any one on this thread to “take sides,” especially not without all the information.

The question is whether or not they have seen this type of action (removal from all ministries, changing locks, forbidding speaking at church events, reneging on a previously approved bible study, etc.) and what was the specific offense that led to (at a minimum) the removal from all ministries.

 

[Cat]

I agree with puzzleannie.

Remember, I and my family were kicked out of our E Free Protestant church for false reasons. So I sympathize with the poor woman if she was treated wrongly by the priest.

BUT–do you know what was in the letter that she wrote?

It’s possible that it contained words/phrases that demonstrated some mental or emotional instability, and the pastor felt that the kind and safe thing to do is remove her from ministries for her own good and the good of others.

You mention that she may have hurt other parishioners (did I read that correctly? I’m not sure). Maybe there were others that complained about her.

You see, the priest can’t reveal all these things publicly. All he can do is take the course of action he thought best (relieving her of ministries) and then stand back and take the bullets in silence.

Obviously I don’t know the situation and I’m not telepathic. The priest may very well have gone too far and perhaps needs to be disciplined. Maybe her letter was just passionate, and the priest totally misinterpreted it.

But considering how hard it is to get loyal volunteers for church ministries nowadays, I would say that your priest probably had pretty good reasons for relieving her of duties.

I would suggest contacting the diocese and asking for investigation of the issue. Be a loyal friend to the woman and stick up for her. Don’t let her go through this alone.

But don’t publicly criticize the priest. Wait until all the facts are in.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Absolutely. It was ONLY the Bible Study that moved to the Methodist Church, attended by all Catholics. I was in the Bible Study and we were treated very hospitably by the Methodist pastor. At the end, we all chipped in to give a donation to the Methodist Church. But we all are, and continue to be, faithful Catholics.

We found here that meeting in public places like restaurants provided an evangelism component to our Small Christian Community gatherings. May times non-Catholic people would come up and ask questions about the Catholic faith and beliefs. We made sure that a Catholic Catechism and a Bible was out on the table (and being used). We always had some material to give out when asked. As was pointed out you can’t call it “St. Annes Catholic Church Bible Study” unless the pastor of St. Annes approves of it. But you can advertise it as “Studying the Catholic Bible”, a “A Catholic Catechism Study Group”, “A Community Bible Study”. Word of mouth advertising works wonders also.

 

[Brendan]

. As was pointed out you can’t call it “St. Annes Catholic Church Bible Study” unless the pastor of St. Annes approves of it. .

You can, however, pick St. Anne as the patroness of your studies and call your group “St. Anne’s Bible Study”

(note that lack of “Catholic Church”, thus not identifiying it to a particular parish)

 

[puzzleannie]

In the case related in OP it is very possible that the pastor cannot violate confidentiality by giving his reasons, but I have to believe they are grave if the person was removed from all ministries. He is the pastor. She is not, neither are her supporters. He is responsible for the actions of all those who conduct ministries under parish auspices, so he must have some control.

OP has asked can others relate similar cases, in addition to that story I have another one. Several people in a neighboring parish, who have been active for many years, parish council, retreat team, RCIA, CCD, and social justice ministries, staunchly defended their new pastor when other parishioners petitioned the bishop to change the assignment. They enthusiastically supported him in new projects he introduced, even tho they had reservations about this ministry. When the activities of the new ministry proved to conflict directly with Catholic doctrine and canon law they protested to him, privately, and gave their reasons why they felt it was unwise to support this project as a parish.He refused to give up the project or to moderate its activities.

This project is an ecumenical group that lobbies local and state legislators on social justice issues. When this lobbying began to conflict with IRS rules on what churches can say and do, and when organization proved to include members who actively support abortion and pro-choice initiatives, these disaffected parishioners took their protest to the bishop, because parish and diocesan funds were being used for these activities. In retaliation they were stripped, publicly, of all parish ministries.

This group chose not to go public with accusations and counter-threats, but mounted a powerful prayer ministry, and publicly and loudly supported the new pastor in all areas except this one. The continued their work in diocesan pro-life activities and other ministries outside the parish, with other approved sponsors. They did not do anything ad hoc that was not supported by the diocese. They did not complain to parishioners at large, except when directly confronted about that one issue. They did not complain about their personal grievances although by this time they were widely known, but they chose not to allow them to be a divisive factor in the parish.

Over the years that pastor has come around to staunch support for pro-life activities, being one of the few priests in the area who consistently is present at these gatherings and gives parish support. He has backed off from the more objectionable activities of the problem organization, and some of its leadership has quietly been removed as well. There are continuing problems in the parish, with liturgy among other things, but each of the original parishioners is now back serving the parish in some capacity, and the conflict was never allowed to become a battleground or a vehicle for attacking the pastor on other issues.

Is there a reason why this problem is being discussed on this forum, because the link is hard for me to see.

 

[Fergal]

A friend of mine was removed from all ministries by her pastor after she prepared a complaint to the diocese about a number of things he had done (and he had failed to correct any, but instead escalated the abuse against her, seemingly trying to get her to leave at least the church over which he presided.) Her complaints included several items of liturgical abuse, some of which is now fixed, some financial questions, and recounting the verbal and email sarcasm, denigration and abuse she believed she had personally suffered from him. The verbal and email abuse was significant; for example, saying things in front of others (when she questioned an errant teaching) that she “thinks she has a degree in theology because she listens to EWTN”. (He seems to really dislike EWTN.)

A few days after she gave him a draft copy of her complaint (hoping this would be one last chance for him to stop doing what he had been doing to her), he removed her from all ministries, which included lector, EMHC, and sacristan. He also removed her from all “ministries”, including all committees such as the liturgy committee, changed the locks to the church so she could no longer enter to pray during the off hours (Church is closed all except 1-2 hours a week), forbid her from speaking out at any church events or from distributing any materials or information. She had purchased materials at her expense for a Bible Study to be held, and then he forbid her from holding the Bible Study on Parish property.

My purpose in writing is NOT to debate the specifics of any particular thing, nor to try to explain the situation in needless detail, but to ask the question:

DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS EVER BEEN TREATED THIS WAY IN THE CHURCH AND WHAT KINDS OF THINGS WERE THEY GUILTY OF THAT INCURRED SUCH ACTION? (Other than pedophilic priests who typically are removed from all ministries.) Clearly it is understood that the pastor has the right to remove people from ministries if he chooses, or not to admit them at all,. His rights are not being debated here. But have you ever seen such a broad retaliation when someone was doing those jobs very acceptably?

I would also say by way of background that this is a sixty-ish woman, a revert about 10 years ago, daily Mass-goer and communicant (in other parishes since hers doesn’t have daily Mass), confession at least once a month. There are no issues of anything like drugs, theft (she actually was a significant donor), child abuse, public lewdness, immoral lifestyle or anything other than what seems to be a personality conflict with the pastor, that especially arose over pastoral planning issues that were leading to closing churches. There were some seemingly outrageous activities that she objected to that could have needlessly hurt other parishioners and several of the churches. I could write more, but I don’t want to get off topic, which is asking about the circumstances in which you have ever seen such behavior from a pastor, and what the person had done to “deserve it.”

Thanks for any help and information anyone can provide.

Yes. Me. Whilst not as bad, my orthodox stance has seen me forced out of my role as chairman of the Pastoral Council, the role of training the Altar Servers has been handed over, without any discussion or consultation to the Youth Ministry Team by our new PP on the advice of some ‘near and dear’ folk and my music ministry has been quashed by a member of the choir.

I now attend daily Mass in a different Parish, except for Sunday where I attend my Parish Church. I was bitter for a while and completely bemused at why I was singled out. I still don’t understand but at least I know that I have to forgive and I did. I am now a much happier and freer person. The Lord has led me back to a life of contemplative prayer which may have been my place all along.

Maybe I lost track of my main goal and involved myself in all that Parish activity to the detriment of my Spiritual Life.

We have to trust that things that seem ludricous may be happening in order to bring us closer to the Lord. Let her return to a deeper life of Prayer and Sacrifice.

 

[hopefull]

Well, I think not being admitted to a new, additional ministry is very different from the situation I originally presented. I am hoping that responses might be of the type: “Yes, I know someone who was removed from all ministries and it was because she said she didn’t believe in the Real Presence,” or “Yes, I know someone who was removed from all ministries and it was because he abused a teenager in the youth program.” I am going to resist saying all that I know about this particular situation because it will take us in the wrong direction, but please don’t assume that priests are always right about how they exercise their powers. They are human too, and have their likes and dislikes, but have a higher calling than exercising their whims against faithful parishioners.

One way to consider the issue is whether or not there is a comparability of offenses to what other parishionrs have been removed from ALL MINISTRIES, etc. for doing. It seems to me that there should be some sense of equity or fairness. I mean if someone got removed for baking a chocolate cake for the parish bake sale and the pastor didn’t like chocolate, well couldn’t we agree that was an unfair and disproportionate response? But that necessitates knowing what people are removed for, in order to have a sense of equity. Perhaps most people viewing these posts really don’t know of anyone who was ever removed from all ministries and are of course trying to be helpful with what they do know (one of the great things about this forum!) Well never hearing of anyone removed from all ministries says something too, doesn’t it?

Even if you have never seen anyone removed from all ministries, even someone who did something not very nice, that would be interesting too. Thanks for any help that anyone can offer if you know of such situations.

Hopefull is really hopeful.

 

[Bullschuck]

I do know of some similar situations. One was in college, where a student had a mental breakdown. He was asked to step down from ministry and he acquiesced. After a period of about a year he went back into active ministry and continues to work (as far as I know) in his local parish. A second guy had a similar breakdown, but was belligerent about a similar request. He felt that he had been healed of his diagnosed mental disorder and didn’t need to take medication. I don’t recall the final outcome, just that he wasn’t there after a while. As a former YM. I know of a couple of similar “pastoral” situations where folks were asked to remove themselves from ministry. Two involved adults making inappropriate sexual comments to youth and adults. One simply took it in stride and continued worshiping at the parish. He was wheelchair-bound and had a severe speech impediment from a motorcycle accident, so he wasn’t considered a threat to others or himself, just creepy (pre-Boston pedophile scandal). The other was a parent who tried to get back into the program. Discussion with his therapist resulted in him being denied admission into Diocesan YM training and any further parish ministry. The severity of the consequence that this pastor used in the example that started this thread implies that he felt (perhaps correctly) that his ability to shepherd the parish was being compromised. Perhaps he made a petty power play, as was implied, or perhaps he realized that the person was acquiring a popularity that was out of scope with the direction of the parish. I have to ask, how many of us have keys to the parish grounds? And why? Even if the church is only open a few hours a day, is it really appropriate to use the church as our own private prayer room? If we are only going to submit to the direction the parish is taking when we personally agree with the vision of the pastor, then we aren’t submitting at all. That’s part of being the flock. And as a former YM, I’ve been on the wrong side of the petty pastoral power play, believe me.

I had this revelation from an opposite experience. We had a youth who was not ever present in any programs (or attending Mass) and was considered (by the YM (me) and the DRE) as therefore being ineligible for the Confirmation program that year. The Pastor met privately (meaning the door was closed to everyone else) with the girl and her family and overruled us, citing ‘pastoral’ reasons and going no further. He was a person noted for his collaboration in many things and on this he tolerated no discussion. It wasn’t until years later that I was reminded by my wife that we had seen the young lady in question at a local theme park when she wasn’t coming to Mass, and wondered why she looked like she had put on weight, all in her mid-section. Of course, my wife didn’t wonder, she’s smarter than I. I haven’t spoken to this girl about it ever, or her family, or her friends, or the pastor, but dollars to donuts that girl stayed away from Mass and Religious Ed classes for about 7 to 9 months, about the time it would take for her to realize the miraculous consequence of a mistake, hide away from prying eyes with the help of her family, give birth, and give a baby up for adoption. The point is this: It felt unjust from my perspective that Father didn’t listen to any of my arguments but it was the proper thing. Paradoxically, the best way to show God’s mercy and grace was for him to shout me down.

 

[otjm]

I do not have any similar experiences with people being removed from all ministries.

One point to keep in mind is that there is never a fight but that there are two parties. It is entirely possible that the woman in the OP’s post was straigh arrow orthodox and the priest was a renegade who din’t want orthodoxy in his parish. That is one scenario; but as other posters have pointed out, there are alos other scenarios, and any pastor worth his salt would not reveal his reasons for doing so. And if he is any good, he would do it in a way that brought little or no attention to the matter.