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benjohnson
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Iām certainly not Anti-Catholic - that would be especially odd for me as the sponsors of my third child are Catholic.
Iām against the perceived problems that the papal office has in diminishing the preaching of the Gospel. I take no joy in this assessment, and have prayed that it werenāt so.
My pronouncement of any problem leaves me right where I started: A repentant sinner in Christās love.
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MaryT777
Guest
I appreciate your honesty, Ben.
The problem I have is there is indeed an issues with the Papacy and to say it isnāt so or doesnāt apply currently is not true. The Concord Book has not been revised.
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benjohnson
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Me too. Iād rather the world was populated with fierce Catholics and grumpy Lutherans than weaken our mutual proclamation of the Gospel for the sake of a grudging and perhaps false unity.
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MaryT777
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What???
What if Catholics want to be grumpy and Lutherans feel fierce>
Will that work too?
That saidā¦I couldnāt agree more.
I have a deep respect for those that donāt āsell outā doctrine for false unity like the LCMS-
Peace in Christ,
Mary.
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hn160
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Read all the anathemas that are in the Council of Trent against the Lutherans and besides the Papal Bull against Luther which called him a hectic and an outlaw has never been recinded. I donāt think that any of the Lutherans on this site are anti-Catholic that we couldnāt sit down and have a Wittenburg beer and discuss our differences civilly.
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MaryT777
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ā¦Looking forward to having a Wittenburg beer with the Lutherans on this site.
I might note that the Lutherans on this site are unique in that they post on a Catholic site.
That might lend itself to the thought you Lutherans are especially open to Catholic /Lutheran dialogue.
The comments on the JDDJ and hopefully it being signed run contrary to the comments the LCMS pastor said in this town, about it which ,was it was the worst thing basically around
in nice theological pastoral terms. He perceived the LCMS would never sign it.
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pablope
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Wellā¦BenJā¦how has the papacy diminished the preaching of the Gospel? Can you give an example?
In todayās timesā¦how can the papacy be diminishing the preaching of the Gospel? Can you give an example?
Or how can the papacy today do the opposite, instead of diminishing the preachingā¦donāt you think it is instead strengthening it?
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pablope
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benjohnson
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Sureā¦ for example historically the Papal office has attempted to wield two swords - this has caused stumbling block for some in receiving the Gospel.
Thankfully, the objections as outlined in the Augsburg Confessions have either diminished or no longer apply. So while weāre still grumpy, weāre much less so than in years past as thereās less to be grumpy about, and indeed for myself, Iāve been very thankful for later Popes.
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aidanbradypop
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How can so talk about unity and serve Wittenburg beer? That is a spit in my face kind sir and I will not be at that tableā¦unless there is a Sam Adams in the fridge.
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Genesis315
Guest
In case anyone did not know this, the Catholic Church did not accept the Joint Declaration either. These kinds of Joint Declarations are only the work of the joint commission, and must be judged by the Church. Here is the Catholic Churchās official response to the Joint Declaration, noting where it diverges from the teaching of the Council of Trent:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html
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pablope
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Ahā¦so through the divine guidance of Godā¦this has been corrected and reformed.
So I wonder why still remain in disunity?
And why still refer to the papacy as the anti-Christ?
Do you still believe the papacy causes a stumbling block in receiving the Gospel?
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steido01
Guest
Not -THE- anti-Christ.
We Lutherans on here have been very careful to differentiate between our definition of āanti-to-Christā and the mythological character that dispensationalists talk about. Please do not inadvertently add modern connotations to our ancient, and biblical, language by adding āthe.ā
Since the word āantichristā has been more or less hijacked by the fictional āLeft Behindā series and similar ilk, I sometimes wish we could find another word to describe our beliefs. But the second we use a new word, you can guarantee that both Lutherans and non-Lutherans would accuse us of modifying the Confessions. As Confessional Lutherans, we canāt do that. All we can do is try to explain what we mean as best as we can, and hope that people understand.
Now, can this* please* go to a different thread? This one was about the LCMS and the JDDJ, and we almost made it back to the topicā¦
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steido01
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Thank you for sharing this. While I clearly wouldnāt agree with all of it, Iām particularly pleased that Rome also sees the need to find more common language to clearly describe each sideās positions (#8).
Iām also interested in #7. Simple question, but is Rome asking for a closer look at James, rather than a focus on the Pauline Epistles? Thatās what I infer, but no specific book is namedā¦
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concretecamper
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So itās OK to have 2 groups( in this case) preaching different messages about the same gospel? You are satisfied with that? If you firmly believed that the Catholic Church is the one true faith, charity demands that you bring your brothers and sisters into full communion with Christ.
I donāt think that was her point. I think her point was that she has respect for those who will stand by what they believe in, and not give in to a false unity based on insincere āagreementsā.
Neither of us believe the world benefits by disagreement in the presentation of the Gospel. Instead, we need to work together to find agreement, honest agreement, about what that message is.
Jon
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benjohnson
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MaryT777 has been very steadfast in her Catholic faith, and hasnāt backed down.
Speaking for myself, what I respect in her is that she proclaims the Gospel 99.99% accurately (from a Lutheran viewpoint) loudly to this wilderness of sinners. Itās that very steadfastness that allows her to do that. So if I were to attempt to being her to a Lutheran understanding of the Gospel, I would find it troubling if it diminished her ability to be one of Godās loving preachers of the Gospel.
The same way how I view the Catholic church - I want a true and strong unity between our two churches based on respect. Not a mild merging based on watering down our faiths to some low common denomination.
Hence the respect I have for those Catholics that are steadfast. Even if theyāre wrong
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
My friend, historically we have all been a stumbling block for some to receive the Gospel.
To adjudicate this to an office is not truly accurate.
MaryT777 has been very steadfast in her Catholic faith, and hasnāt backed down.
Speaking for myself, what I respect in her is that she proclaims the Gospel 99.99% accurately (from a Lutheran viewpoint) loudly to this wilderness of sinners. Itās that very steadfastness that allows her to do that. So if I were to attempt to being her to a Lutheran understanding of the Gospel, I would find it troubling if it diminished her ability to be one of Godās loving preachers of the Gospel.
The same way how I view the Catholic church - I want a true and strong unity between our two churches based on respect. Not a mild merging based on watering down our faiths to some low common denomination.
Hence the respect I have for those Catholics that are steadfast. Even if theyāre wrong
Jon
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