LCMS, LCC and NALC Leaders Release Joint Statement on Scripture

[steido01]

Is NALC considered confessional?

Not by Confessional standards. But they like to think they are, because they’re slightly-less-non-Confessional than the ELCA.

I’m being somewhat pithy. But no Confessional Lutheran body considers the NALC to be Confessional because they hold a “quatenus” view of the Lutheran Confessional documents. All Confessional Lutheran churches hold a “quia” subscription.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, it would. With God, all things are possible. We pray for unity.

I won’t argue with you about all things being possible with God, as that’s an area of agreement … but it’s worth noting that, in just the same way, an RC could say it’s possible for them to become RC.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I won’t argue with you about all things being possible with God, as that’s an area of agreement … but it’s worth noting that, in just the same way, an RC could say it’s possible for them to become RC.

Sure. Unity’s a pretty tall order, but it HAS been commanded by Christ Himself and reform, not fragmentation, was Luther’s aim. Naturally, we all want the banner of our own church to be that banner the other churches fall in line under. Unfortunately, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin, King Henry VIII and Conrad Greble found additional fault and thus began the avalanche. The only appropriate close to this is
Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Lord have mercy.

 

[Padres1969]

Hey question, since this is a Confessional Lutheran thread. Do the LCMS, LCC, and other Confessional Lutheran groups still teach that the office of the Papacy, or the Pope himself, is the Anti-Christ? I mean I know the LCMS, WELS, etc… still maintain that stance in their official doctrinal positions. But is it still actively taught? Or is that just a remnant they no longer actively hold to?

 

[LutheranScholar]

Hey question, since this is a Confessional Lutheran thread. Do the LCMS, LCC, and other Confessional Lutheran groups still teach that the office of the Papacy, or the Pope himself, is the Anti-Christ? I mean I know the LCMS, WELS, etc… still maintain that stance in their official doctrinal positions. But is it still actively taught? Or is that just a remnant they no longer actively hold to?

We were getting along so well… In point of fact, to answer your question, the LCMS does teach that the office of the papacy is that of Anti- Christ.

*Of the Antichrist
As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.) *lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition#antichrist

It was a real question and I tried to answer it honestly and I do expect roils of indignation to follow this link, but please bear in mind that we generally regard our Catholic brethren as brethren and the Catholic Church as a Christian Church. We don’t spew hatred of Catholicism ( that would be considered very offensive to the Italian and Irish converts to Lutheranism we have at my parish and I can think of at least one person of Scotch- Irish predilections and a French Cajun great- grandmother who attends our divine service and would find any kind of demonization of Catholics to be highly offensive. He has kind of a big mouth and would be very vocal in his objections) and right now, the polemic is directed primarily against Islam…

 

[Erich]

As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, …

Hmm, actually, the Antichrist is mentioned by name in only four verses of Scripture: 1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3, and 2 John 7. There are other verses that many people link to the Antichrist, but since he isn’t named in them, the connection is not certain. The four Johanine verses must serve as the core of our knowledge before trying to link other verses to them.

In 1 John 2:18–19, we read, “Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

This passage appears to speak of a major individual Antichrist, as well as many minor individual Antichrists, who apparently are apostate Christians for “they went out from us.” The appearance of the individual Antichrist is yet future (“Antichrist is coming”), but the presence of the many Antichrists is a signal that “it is the last hour.”

In 1 John 2:22–23, we read, “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.”

This is consistent with the apostate nature of the many Antichrists, for they have “deny[ied] that Jesus is the Christ” and, in denying the Son, they have implicitly denied the Father. Presumably the same would be true of the individual Antichrist.

1 John 4:1–6 gives practical tests for discerning which spirits bearing revelation are from God and which are not. In John 4:3, we read that “every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of Antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.”

This shows that the Antichrist movement is inspired by spirits bearing false revelation and that refuse to confess Jesus. This movement had begun in John’s day but would grow afterward.

Finally, in 2 John 7, we read, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.”

Nothing there about the pope (any pope!) or the papacy.

 

[MaryT777]

We were getting along so well… In point of fact, to answer your question, the LCMS does teach that the office of the papacy is that of Anti- Christ.

*Of the Antichrist
As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.) *lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition#antichrist

It was a real question and I tried to answer it honestly and I do expect roils of indignation to follow this link, but please bear in mind that we generally regard our Catholic brethren as brethren and the Catholic Church as a Christian Church. We don’t spew hatred of Catholicism ( that would be considered very offensive to the Italian and Irish converts to Lutheranism we have at my parish and I can think of at least one person of Scotch- Irish predilections and a French Cajun great- grandmother who attends our divine service and would find any kind of demonization of Catholics to be highly offensive. He has kind of a big mouth and would be very vocal in his objections) and right now, the polemic is directed primarily against Islam…

I have no indignation regarding this whatsoever. The doctrine of the Pope or his office being the AntiChrist is a man made doctrine that takes perverting many scriptures out of context. Lutherans are not the only ones that claim the Pope is the AntiChrist. Those that do are a dime a dozen.

Catholics reject that and stand by the biblical definition of the anti Christ.

New International Version
“Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son”

No pope has denied Jesus is the Christ, no Pope is the AntiChrist. It’s a reflection of the deep hatred Luther had for the Pope and twisting scriptures to suit your agenda.

 

[MaryT777]

I might add not all Lutherans believe in the Pope as the AntiChrist doctrinal statement the LCMS holds to. Father K on this board has noted that is not necessary to believe to be a Lutheran in good standing.

 

[Peter_J]

We were getting along so well… In point of fact, to answer your question, the LCMS does teach that the office of the papacy is that of Anti- Christ.

*Of the Antichrist
As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.) *lcms.org/doctrine/doctrinalposition#antichrist

It was a real question and I tried to answer it honestly and I do expect roils of indignation to follow this link,

I think that’s a reasonable expectation, just as I would expect roils if I said that Lutherans are heretics on a Lutheran forum.

 

[benjohnson]

I think that’s a reasonable expectation, just as I would expect roils if I said that Lutherans are heretics on a Lutheran forum.

I’ll say it - most Lutherans are heretics in one way or another. May God have mercy on all of us and point us toward Christ and Him Crucified.

But at least we don’t hold hands during the Our Father. So we got that going for us.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I think that’s a reasonable expectation, just as I would expect roils if I said that Lutherans are heretics on a Lutheran forum.

Oh, aye, indeed! As I said, though, although our Confessions do blast the papacy, we’re more interested in finding commonalities with our fellow Christians these days ( without compromising our doctrine) and sort of circling the wagons against the secularism of the world and the threat of radical Islam.

 

[Erich]

But at least we don’t hold hands during the Our Father. So we got that going for us.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I’ll say it - most Lutherans are heretics in one way or another. May God have mercy on all of us and point us toward Christ and Him Crucified.

But at least we don’t hold hands during the Our Father. So we got that going for us.

Exactly. All we’ve got going for us is what God has already done for us. I would probably be considered a heretic because of my interest in genetics and how they seem to support an Old Earth Creation. We only have what we are given.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Praying for Confessional unity!:extrahappy: