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SalusaSecondus
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Right, the person is called but for a temporary time to fulfill the role and duties of a pastor.
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thenobes
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Maybe receptionism as it applies to the congregation in general? That is, that once the pastor begins to consecrate the bread and wine they have already become present? So the intent to give and have the bresd and wine recieved prepares the way for the real presence? Maybe more rightly labeled “Communionism”?
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Duane1966
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Didn’t know anyone had magical powers. I know Catholic priests don’t, nor do they believe in magic. Do the Lutherans?Probably. Since the pastor doesn’t have any special magical power in this regard, I wouldn’t say that it is impossible for a non-pastor to say the words of institution, although it would probably be discouraged since a non-pastor might not have the proper knowledge and training to do it properly.
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steido01
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Thank you for the post, Duane. I’ve read those words or variations on them before. They seem to leave the door open to Works Righteousness. It’s as if Jesus’ Sacrifice wasn’t enough. He just made it possible for Christians to work their own way to heaven. But how can a poor, miserable sinner offer anything? I have nothing to sacrifice. And to identify myself with the One, Holy Lamb on the Altar? I try my best not to blaspheme.
Lutherans believe as the historic church has taught; the Words of Institution are to be spoken by the pastor. Our confessions are clear:
Of Ecclesiastical Order they [the Lutherans] teach that no one is to publicly preach or administer the Sacraments unless he be rightly called [and ordained].
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steido01
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In rare, temporary, and last-resort sort of circumstances, male presidents of congregations may be called to administer the sacraments when a pastor is unavailable. This is not dissimilar to the Roman Catholic concept of Extraordinary Minister of Holy Comunion.
Without knowing the circumstances, but knowing the LCMS, the individual was likely called and ordained as a Specific Ministry Pastor, meaning he is not eligible to accept a call elsewhere until he can complete additional theological training, and is serving only that particular congregation so as to not deprive them of God’s gifts.
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steido01
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Duane1966
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It is the priest alone, standing in persona Christi, that confects the Sacrament. The people are to unite themselves to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Recall from the article on the Preface dialog, which comes immediately after the Suscipiat Dominus, the people will exclaim, “We lift [our hearts] up to the Lord.” It is essential that we do so (in fact “It is right and just”), and in that sense (understood correctly) the sacrifice being offered is not the priest’s alone, but also the people’s. However in order for the people to unite themselves to Christ’s sacrifice, it is necessary that his sacrifice be prior to and distinct from our offering, so that we have something to which we unite ourselves. The Mass is a re-presentation of Christ’s saving action, and he alone (through the priest) offers that sacrifice. We, in turn, unite ourselves to this cosmic reality. Another way of saying the same thing is that “my sacrifice and yours” conveys the complimentarity of priest and people, both part of the Mystical Body of Christ. Each in their own way participates in the one sacrifice, the priest by the power he received in the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the people by the power they received at Baptism.
No blasphemy here. Nor in my prior post was there anything about working one’s way into Heaven. Not sure where you read that into prior post. Can you elaborate on why you would think that any Catholic woukd think that Jesus sacrifice isn’t enough? Are we to do nothing? Or with Jesus and the Holy Spirit working in us should we feed the poor, comfort the sick, visit those in jail, volunteer our time?
Then you should have no problem with the term confect. Without the priest there, it simply cannot happen. With a validly ordained priest there, us Catholics have Jesus assurance that it will happen.
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conRep12
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So what is it that makes a Lutheran pastor as necessary to the continuing ministry of Christ as John the Baptist was to the beginning? Why does it take a pastor? Could a laymen do it? Do any other denominations’ pastors have this ability? What aspect of Lutheran ordination confers this ability?
As an aside, it’s heartening to see a discussion on the keys and Apostolic Succession veer so quickly from confession to the confection of the Eucharist; confession is a sacrament, but it’s not what we call the source and summit of our faith. Good on ya you bread worshipping Catholics.
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conRep12
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Temporary pastors with temporary calls for specific congregations. Is that based on the totally historic concept of temporary bishops with temporary consecrations who are only objectively a bishop while within the boundaries of their temporary dioceses? Maybe temporary apostles and priests too. Why don’t the members of the congregation take turns as pastor; each week someone else gets to say the words and do the actions WHILE STILL INSISTING THAT GOD ALONE WORKING THROUGH NO ONE IN PARTICULAR OR BESIDE ANYONE SPECIAL temporarily makes present Christ. Would save millions on seminary education, salaries, and housing for pastors who are effectively just better educated laymen.
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conRep12
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Paul was a fan of works righteousness?
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. - Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. - Colossians 1:24
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conRep12
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It’s quite dissimilar. Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion can only ever distribute the Eucharist; they could never (unless by some odd coincidence they be ordained priests) confect it. Even distributing to the homebound or on some Sunday where an emergency prevents the priest from celebrating Mass would require Hosts that were previously confected by a priest. No laymen or deacon has the authority nor grace to do that.
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pablope
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pablope
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I think as what gave birth to Lutheranism…a lot of it if based on misunderstanding…as explained here by a Lutheran pastor…on the word Sacrifice…stpaullutheranchurchhamel.org/Revisiting_the_Sacrifice_.htm
With these thoughts it might be possible to rethink what I cannot but feel is an area that Lutherans are in desperate need of revisiting: namely, our reaction to the language of the sacrifice of the Mass. There is indeed a very profound sense in which the whole Church gathers to constantly offer before the Father, to hold up before Him, to commemorate the One Oblation which was once offered, and which Oblation is precisely made present by Christ Himself for us in the gift of His Body and Blood in order to BE our life, our justification, our redemption. When we point to it and beg the manifold mercies of the Father we are not elbowing our way into Christ’s sacrifice (for we couldn’t be any more “in” it than we already are!), but using Christ’s sacrifice as the great gift it is: the reconciliation of God and humanity. Is not this what all Lutherans sing:
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MaryT777
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steido01
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This is not at all what I explained. The Specific Ministry Pastor is a real pastor, actually called by the congregation and ordained. He is “temporary” only insofar as he hasn’t yet completed his abbreviated seminary training due to whatever circumstances. The expectation is that he will complete it. He must do so if he wishes to accept a call to any other congregation. There are rules for this exceptionally rare occurrence. Easily searchable on the Web.
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benjohnson
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Indeed - the Lutheran reaction to words like ‘confect’ ,‘sacrifice’, and ‘transubstantiation’ come from the experiences from 500 years ago - much has been changed in the meantime in that it’s rather interesting that Jan Hus’ reforms are pretty much complete in the Catholic church today.
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Peter_J
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Did you mean to type “your” rather than “our”? (I’m not trying to be a back-seat driver, but I’m asking because your profile says Catholic.)
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Peter_J
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I don’t know enough about Pastor Fisk to give a yes or no to your question (not that it was addressed to me anyhow
) but may I say that I would not be surprised. I am convinced – yes, convinced – that there’s an epidemic of people being drawn toward things that are anti-…
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Thorolfr
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It’s true that the Augsburg Confession (Article XIV) holds that no one is to preach, teach, or administer the sacraments without a regular call, and I’m sure that there is a belief that a pastor has been called and is being guided and used by God in his ministry. But I don’t think that most Lutherans would claim that a pastor, by reason of his ordination, has some sort of supernatural ability to confect the Eucharist or that ordination, as some Catholics here in CAF have said, leaves an indelible mark on the soul of the person ordained. Ordination, for Lutherans is not a sacrament, and as already noted, an unordained layman could say the words of institution if the need arose. Lutherans have only two sacraments, baptism and communion (i.e. the Eucharist) and although a pastor usually baptizes and says the words of institution during communion, under extraordinary circumstances, a layman can do both things. Even Catholics believe that in an emergency, anyone with appropriate intention and using the Trinitarian baptismal formula can baptize. Lutherans, I think, believe the same applies to communion where anyone with proper intention and using the right words can say the words of institution for communion.
As noted here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church%E2%80%93Missouri_Synod
I don’t think that the ELCA is substantially different. We do have bishops in the ELCA who are pastors called to serve either a synod or as Presiding Bishop, but I don’t think that the notion of Apostolic Succession is important and after his or her term of service, a bishop returns to just being a pastor.
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steido01
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I take issue only with the bit in red. The Confessions could not be more clear; the Sacraments are to be administered only by those rightly called. Even in emergency situations, one is called, ordained, and therefore no longer a layman. You’re right that Lutherans don’t consider the Office of Public Ministry to confer any “indelible mark on the soul,” as our Catholic friends explain it – but Lutherans do understand that God has chosen to work through our called and ordained servants of the Word to dispense His Grace in the Sacraments.
And not to fall down another rabbit hole… while Lutherans usually only count two or three Sacraments, it is possible to think of the other ancient rites of the church, including ordination, as sacramental, in that they are an extension of the Grace received at Baptism. I think this way of thinking about them is a point of convergence for Lutherans and Catholics, and is a starting point for future reunification.
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