LCMS Pastor Jonathan Fisk and the Keys of the Kingdom

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With these thoughts it might be possible to rethink what I cannot but feel is an area that Lutherans are in desperate need of revisiting: namely, [the Lutheran] reaction to the language of the sacrifice of the Mass.
Thank you, friend. Yes, it’s a question that Lutherans have asked themselves lately. Using the “sacrificial lingo” might be worth revisiting by Lutherans if, and only if, we are very clear that the only sacrifice that matters is the Sacrifice that took place on a cross near Jerusalem around 2000 years ago. If the ambiguity of the wording was made more clear, I could buy into it.
 
Thank you, friend. Yes, it’s a question that Lutherans have asked themselves lately. Using the “sacrificial lingo” might be worth revisiting by Lutherans if, and only if, we are very clear that the only sacrifice that matters is the Sacrifice that took place on a cross near Jerusalem around 2000 years ago. If the ambiguity of the wording was made more clear, I could buy into it.
I’m Anglican. As I have oft said, in this venue, when replying to those who think the Eucharist is some sort of " other" sacrifice, no. It is not another sacrifice, not a repeated sacrifice, not an additional sacrifice, not a separate sacrifice, not a follow-on sacrifice, not a later sacrifice. It is the one, eternal Sacrifice, of Calvary, made present for us the altar, at the intersection of time and eternity, as we are brought to stand at the foot of that cross. That. Some folks here often agree with me. Occasionally including some Anglicans.
 
I don’t know enough about Pastor Fisk to give a yes or no to your question (not that it was addressed to me anyhow :)) but may I say that I would not be surprised. I am convinced – yes, convinced – that there’s an epidemic of people being drawn toward things that are anti-…
Well, I do wonder if Rev. Fisk took a few courses from the Michael Voris School of Videography.
 
Isn’t this what a Lutheran pastor does also? This is what the Orthodox believe also.
Sorry, pablope, missed this post. No, the Lutheran pastor does not by virtue of his own self confect the Eucharist. Instead, he stands in persona Christi to announce that God has made the Body and Blood present.
So all these time, you have not bothered to clear up this up and understand the catholic understanding of these words?

Could it be you do not believe the Catholic explanation?
The trouble is I don’t know which to believe is the Catholic explanation. I read Catholics like you explain it one way, while Duane and other Catholics write that “It can help to identify ourselves with the gifts [read: Christ] placed on the altar for consecration,” and “The congregation is invited by the priest to unite their sacrifices to those he offers in his manner of offering,” – as if whatever we could offer would avail us anything, when Christ has already made the once-and-for-all Sacrifice. And when I hear the words used in the Novus Ordo, I have to wonder if the latter group is reflecting a more accurate understanding of Rome’s position. If not, then why not correct the ambiguous language of the Mass? Why leave the potential for misinterpretation? And gross, potentially-blasphemous misinterpretation at that! After all, it’s not me on the altar - it’s only the pure Lamb. To say that I am part of a worthwhile sacrifice to God is putting myself in place of the One who was sacrificed - that is blasphemy. I hope there’s something I’m missing here. Maybe I’m reading too much into the words. Then again, maybe I’m just terribly, humbly, fallibly Lutheran.
I’m Anglican. As I have oft said, in this venue, when replying to those who think the Eucharist is some sort of " other" sacrifice, no. It is not another sacrifice, not a repeated sacrifice, not an additional sacrifice, not a separate sacrifice, not a follow-on sacrifice, not a later sacrifice. It is the one, eternal Sacrifice, of Calvary, made present for us the altar, at the intersection of time and eternity, as we are brought to stand at the foot of that cross. That. Some folks here often agree with me. Occasionally including some Anglicans.
Amen. This is the catholic view, as I’ve been taught and profess it. If this is also the Catholic view, then I’m just ornery about the imprecise and misleading language used to describe it.
 
Sorry, pablope, missed this post. No, the Lutheran pastor does not by virtue of his own self confect the Eucharist. Instead, he stands in persona Christi to announce the change that God has made to the Body and Blood.

The trouble is I don’t know which to believe is the Catholic explanation. I read Catholics like you explain it one way, while Duane and other Catholics write that “It can help to identify ourselves with the gifts [read: Christ] placed on the altar for consecration,” and “The congregation is invited by the priest to unite their sacrifices to those he offers in his manner of offering,” – as if whatever we could offer would avail us anything, when Christ has already made the once-and-for-all Sacrifice. And when I hear the words used in the Novus Ordo, I have to wonder if the latter group is reflecting a more accurate understanding of Rome’s position. If not, then why not correct the ambiguous language of the Mass? Why leave the potential for misinterpretation? And gross, potentially-blasphemous misinterpretation at that! After all, it’s not me on the altar - it’s only the pure Lamb. To say that I am part of a worthwhile sacrifice to God is putting myself in place of the One who was sacrificed - that is blasphemy. I hope there’s something I’m missing here. Maybe I’m reading too much into the words. Then again, maybe I’m just terribly, humbly, fallibly Lutheran.

Amen. This is the catholic view, as I’ve been taught and profess it. If this is also the Catholic view, then I’m just ornery about the imprecise language used to describe it.
AFAIK, it is not something I’ve been called out on.
 
Sorry, pablope, missed this post. No, the Lutheran pastor does not by virtue of his own self confect the Eucharist. Instead, he stands in persona Christi to announce that God has made the Body and Blood present.

The trouble is I don’t know which to believe is the Catholic explanation. I read Catholics like you explain it one way, while Duane and other Catholics write that “It can help to identify ourselves with the gifts [read: Christ] placed on the altar for consecration,” and “The congregation is invited by the priest to unite their sacrifices to those he offers in his manner of offering,” – as if whatever we could offer would avail us anything, when Christ has already made the once-and-for-all Sacrifice. And when I hear the words used in the Novus Ordo, I have to wonder if the latter group is reflecting a more accurate understanding of Rome’s position. If not, then why not correct the ambiguous language of the Mass? Why leave the potential for misinterpretation? And gross, potentially-blasphemous misinterpretation at that! After all, it’s not me on the altar - it’s only the pure Lamb. To say that I am part of a worthwhile sacrifice to God is putting myself in place of the One who was sacrificed - that is blasphemy. I hope there’s something I’m missing here. Maybe I’m reading too much into the words. Then again, maybe I’m just terribly, humbly, fallibly Lutheran.
A priest can only confect the Eucharist by the power of the Holy Spirit working through him by the grace conferred upon him by Christ through his ordination by the laying on of hands of the successors of the Apostles whom Christ empowered to pass on his authority.
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” - John 20:21

Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. - Colossians 1:24
Is Paul proudly blaspheming here? We aren’t by any stretch replacing Christ’s sacrifice; we’re uniting ourselves to it.
 
No, the Lutheran pastor does not by virtue of his own self confect the Eucharist. Instead, he stands in persona Christi to announce that God has made the Body and Blood present.
Must have missed my post earlier. Oh well, I will again post the relevant points.

1.) Catholics have always believed the it is God who makes the Sacrament present, from the very first Mass ever celebrated.

2.) One priest, alone or with a congregation, **by God’s power **changes the people’s bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.
The trouble is I don’t know which to believe is the Catholic explanation. I read Catholics like you explain it one way, while Duane and other Catholics write that “It can help to identify ourselves with the gifts [read: Christ] placed on the altar for consecration,” and “The congregation is invited by the priest to unite their sacrifices to those he offers in his manner of offering,” – as if whatever we could offer would avail us anything, when Christ has already made the once-and-for-all Sacrifice. And when I hear the words used in the Novus Ordo, I have to wonder if the latter group is reflecting a more accurate understanding of Rome’s position. If not, then why not correct the ambiguous language of the Mass? Why leave the potential for misinterpretation? And gross, potentially-blasphemous misinterpretation at that! After all, it’s not me on the altar - it’s only the pure Lamb. To say that I am part of a worthwhile sacrifice to God is putting myself in place of the One who was sacrificed - that is blasphemy.
The people are to unite themselves to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The people will exclaim, “We lift [our hearts] up to the Lord.” It is essential that we do so (in fact “It is right and just”), and in that sense (understood correctly) the sacrifice being offered is not the priest’s alone, but also the people’s. However in order for the people to unite themselves to Christ’s sacrifice, it is necessary that his sacrifice be prior to and distinct from our offering, so that we have something to which we unite ourselves. The Mass is a re-presentation of Christ’s saving action, and he alone (through the priest) offers that sacrifice. We, in turn, unite ourselves to this cosmic reality. Another way of saying the same thing is that “my sacrifice and yours” conveys the complimentarity of priest and people, both part of the Mystical Body of Christ. Each in their own way participates in the one sacrifice, the priest by the power he received in the Sacrament of Holy Orders **and the people by the power they received at Baptism.
**

The following is taken from the following website:hughosb.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/missal-moments-iv-my-sacrifice-and-yours/

Perhaps on a more dangerous level it might lead some to believe that the congregation itself is offering the sacrifice to the Father along with the priest. This is a faulty understanding of the Mass. It is the priest who offers the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Lord’s Body and Blood. And he does so because by ordination he is empowered to act in persona Christi, in the person of Christ. Because, as we all know, it is not any human who offers Christ to the Father; rather it is Christ’s self-sacrifice to his Father, for us and for salvation. At Mass, as in other sacraments, the priest is the instrument by which Christ acts.

Nevertheless, the people do offer a sacrifice, and at this point in the Mass the dialogue can serve to remind the people to ensure they offer it.** St Paul (in Romans 12:1) tells us what this sacrifice of the people is:**
  • I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.*
In the early Church not only were bread and wine brought up at the Offertory, but also other gifts that might be of service to the local Church. Today those gifts are condensed into and symbolised by the money given in the collection. That money, as too those original gifts, are themselves symbols of the offering of ourselves to God, of our bodies in spiritual sacrifice.

So the correction made in the revised Missal will serve not only to remind the people that the priest is offering a sacrifice that is not solely the priest’s but on behalf of all the Church, a symbol and microcosm of which is the congregation gathered at that particular time and place. This puts the congregation’s half of this dialogue in its proper context:
Code:
May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good and the good of all his holy Church.
Yet the correction also serves as a timely reminder to the people to ensure that they unite the offering of themselves, their spiritual sacrifice, to that being offered by Christ at the priest’s hands on their behalf. The Church, the Body of Christ, offers itself in its individual members in union with Christ as he offers himself in the one great sacrifice of the Cross to the Father in his Body and Blood through the ministry of the priest. This all part of the individual Christian’s mission to unite himself, or herself, ever more intimately to Christ, indeed to become one with Him, which is the heart of holiness. For as Christ offers himself for us, lays down his life for us, so too are we called to offer ourselves with Him, to lay down our lives for our friends, for greater love than this there is not! (cf John 15:13)

1.) It is truly not a hard concept to understand.
**
2.) I hope no one thinks St. Paul is blaspheming!**
Then again, maybe I’m just terribly, humbly, fallibly Lutheran.
I agree with the fallible part. Not sure about the humble.😉
 
I remember a friend of mine telling me that he recently visited a LCMS congregation whose pastor recently retired and someone else in the congregation who graduated from a Lutheran college with a degree in Christian Education is basically acting as interim pastor even though he is not ordained. So it is not necessary to be ordained to say the words of institution in a Lutheran church.
A complete and utter violation of Lutheran doctrine set out in Article XIV of CA.
In the time leading up to the presentation of the Augsburg Confession, Johann Eck accused the Lutheran reformers of doing away with the ordained ministry:
. 267. Any one can absolve any one; accord freest authority of hearing confessions is to be to all brethren and sisters (Luther).
  1. The Church of Christ ignores the sacrament of Ordination (Luther). But it is a figment invented by men (Zwingli, Rieger, Amsterdo).
  1. As many of us as have been baptized are all equally priests; and any layman can consecrate churches, confirm children, etc. (Luther, Zwingli).
Melanchthon added XIV to refute Eck’s accusation.
The writing of XIV means exactly what it says, because when God calls a man to serve in the Church, he sends him through the Church. The call is never separate from ordination.

Jon
 
A complete and utter violation of Lutheran doctrine set out in Article XIV of CA.
The poster was reporting anecdotal evidence third hand. I’m not sure we need to put too much stock into it. You and I both know that the LC-MS would have required, at minimum, an SMP call from the congregation, permission of the DP, advisement from the seminary, and ordination by the surrounding pastors. I’m willing to bet something was lost in the translation to the forums.
 
The poster was reporting anecdotal evidence third hand. I’m not sure we need to put too much stock into it. You and I both know that the LC-MS would have required, at minimum, an SMP call from the congregation, permission of the DP, advisement from the seminary, and ordination by the surrounding pastors. I’m willing to bet something was lost in the translation to the forums.
I think it is something very concerning. Since a CTCR document published in 1989, we are seeing in some districts the effective abolishing of CA XIV, sand therefore CA V.

stand-firm.blogspot.com/2012/07/was-john-eck-right-just-482-years-too.html?m=1

Jon
 
This all seems like the inevitable result of teaching the cessation of Apostolic Succession and the propagation of the teaching of the democratization of the authority of the keys.
Your perception may or may not be true. My own view revolves around the proper perception the confessions of the Lutheran Church, that being, do we as Lutherans accept them as a right reflection of scripture, or simply a nice little guideline that we can follow or disregard at our choosing. IOW, it is an issue far broader than the the issue of the call and ordination for the Office of the Public Ministry.

But as for that particular issue, there is an element of truth in what you say, if by “cessation” you mean a willingness to accept what is a valid exception to the canon norm as a regular practice. That’s what we have today at least in our synod: the use of (valid) presbyter ordination, employed as an exception to AS in the western Church prior to the Reformation, as the norm for valid ordination. Without vigilance, exceptions can easily become errors, if the doctrines within the Augsburg Confession, viewed as only suggestions, can be set aside.

Reminds one of Krauth’s warning about how errors come into the Church.

Jon
 
But as for that particular issue, there is an element of truth in what you say, if by “cessation” you mean a willingness to accept what is a valid exception to the canon norm as a regular practice. That’s what we have today at least in our synod: the use of (valid) presbyter ordination, employed as an exception to AS in the western Church prior to the Reformation, as the norm for valid ordination. Without vigilance, exceptions can easily become errors, if the doctrines within the Augsburg Confession, viewed as only suggestions, can be set aside.
I must not be familiar with this pre-Protestant practice. When was ordination ever valid without laying on of hands by a validly ordained bishop in the line of succession of an Apostle? By cessation, I mean the discontinuation, as something unnecessary, of apostolic authority in the hierarchy whereby the validity of a pastor’s “orders”, ANY pastor’s “orders”, no longer depends on their ordination by laying on of hands of a bishop in the line of an Apostle. This seems foundational to Lutheranism because I don’t see how Lutheranism could exist without teaching the cessation of Apostolic Succession; the ensuing confusion over what ordination requires or even is seems an inevitable product of this along with the confusion over what a pastor is and can and must do.
 
I must not be familiar with this pre-Protestant practice. When was ordination ever valid without laying on of hands by a validly ordained bishop in the line of succession of an Apostle? By cessation, I mean the discontinuation, as something unnecessary, of apostolic authority in the hierarchy whereby the validity of a pastor’s “orders”, ANY pastor’s “orders”, no longer depends on their ordination by laying on of hands of a bishop in the line of an Apostle. This seems foundational to Lutheranism because I don’t see how Lutheranism could exist without teaching the cessation of Apostolic Succession; the ensuing confusion over what ordination requires or even is seems an inevitable product of this along with the confusion over what a pastor is and can and must do.
From this
Lacking bps. to ordain their candidates for the sacred ministry, the Luths. appealed to the patristically attested facts that originally bps. and priests constituted only one order; that the right to ordain was inherent in the priesthood (a principle on which a number of popes of the 15th c., among them Boniface IX, Martin V, and Innocent VIII, acted in authorizing Cistercian abbots who were only priests to ordain); that thence “an ordination administered by a pastor in his own church is valid by divine law” (Tractatus 65); and that when the canonical bps. refuse to impart ordination “the churches are compelled by divine law to ordain pastors and ministers, using their own pastors for this purpose (adhibitis suis pastoribus)” (ibid., 72). The succession of the ministry in the Luth. Ch. may therefore be presumed to be a valid presbyterial one.
As I said, Lutherans point to this, as it is a valid exception.

Jon
 
From this

As I said, Lutherans point to this, as it is a valid exception.

Jon
So let’s say I lived in 35 A.D. and were a priest. Furthermore, I start preaching a perverted form of the Gospel, one that none of the Apostles agree with, and I also have many followers who believe my preaching. All the Apostles tell me that I am mistaken, this is not what Jesus taught. The Apostles then tell me to stop preaching my perverted form of the Gospel, but I refuse. I then ask the Apostles to ordain some of my followers, but they refuse. Do I then have the right, and duty, to ordain my followers myself and claim it is valid by divine law? And does anyone think the Apostles would consider my ordinations valid?

If the above is okay, then in reality anyone who disagrees
with their higher-ups has the right and duty to start their own church, and it should be considered valid by everyone according to divine law. Why to follow this path to its logical conclusion means we could end up with five or maybe even ten denominations. …oh wait…
 
So let’s say I lived in 35 A.D. and were a priest. Furthermore, I start preaching a perverted form of the Gospel, one that none of the Apostles agree with, and I also have many followers who believe my preaching. All the Apostles tell me that I am mistaken, this is not what Jesus taught. The Apostles then tell me to stop preaching my perverted form of the Gospel, but I refuse. I then ask the Apostles to ordain some of my followers, but they refuse. Do I then have the right, and duty, to ordain my followers myself and claim it is valid by divine law? And does anyone think the Apostles would consider my ordinations valid?

If the above is okay, then in reality anyone who
disagrees with their higher-ups has the right and duty to start their own church, and it should be considered valid by everyone according to divine law. Why to follow this path to its logical conclusion means we could end up with five or maybe even ten denominations. …oh wait :rolleyes:
Your hypothetical doesn’t parallel the Lutheran practice. The would-be-ordained must still be accepted by the greater church (we do agree it is the church, in general, which holds the power to call and ordain, yes?). This means the surrounding pastors, in lieu of a bishop, come together for the ordination – just as was the practice of the early church.
 
Your hypothetical doesn’t parallel the Lutheran practice. The would-be-ordained must still be accepted by the greater church (we do agree it is the church, in general, which holds the power to call and ordain, yes?).
Did the greater Church accept it? It was accepted universally?
In reality all I have to do to is add the line: “and after we had ordained our own, we continued to grow,” and it does parallel quite nicely.
This means the surrounding pastors, in lieu of a bishop, come together for the ordination – just as was the practice of the early church.
And here is the problem, I have bolded the key part, which parallels my hypothetical. There was no in lieu of, as if there were no bishops in the area to ordain the original Lutherans, they were in the area, there were just none to be found who agreed with Luther.

Can you give me some quotes that show this was the practice of the early Church?

Here are quotations from the early Church, on the practice of ordination in the early Church. It seems to be at odds with your view.

"On a presbyter, however, let the presbyters impose their hands because of the common and like Spirit of the clergy. Even so, the presbyter has only the power to receive [the Spirit], and not the power to give [the Spirit].*** That is why a presbyter does not ordain the clergy;*** for at the ordaining of a presbyter, he but seals while the bishop ordains. Hippolytus (The Apostolic Tradition9 [A.D. 215]).

In other words,** anyone who acts without the bishop **and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clear conscience" (ibid., 7:2).*(Notice even if you act with other priests, without the bishop you have done wrong)

**Do nothing without the bishop, **keep your body as the temple of God, love unity, **flee from divisions, **be imitators of Jesus Christ, as he was imitator of the Father’" Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Philadelphians7:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

For which reason you must diligently observe and keep the practice delivered from divinetradition and apostolic observance, which is also maintained among us, and almost throughout all the provinces; that for theproper celebration of ordinations*all the neighbouring bishops of the same province should assemble with that people for which a prelate is ordained. Cyprian of Carthage epistle 14 par 2 (200-270 ad)

And finally an interesting little article addressing the question of priests ordaining priests in the early Church.

energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/apostolic-succession-2-presbyterian-ordination/
 
From this

As I said, Lutherans point to this, as it is a valid exception.

Jon
Ecumenical Councils and the Fathers seem to attest a difference between bishops and priests much earlier and more widely accepted than the Lutheran “Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope” would like to admit.

The ordinary minister of the sacrament is the bishop, who alone has this power in virtue of his ordination. Holy Scripture attributed the power to the Apostles and their successors (Acts 6:6; 16:22; 1 Timothy 5:22; 2 Timothy 1:6; Titus 1:5), and the Fathers and councils ascribe the power to the bishop exclusively. First Council of Nicaea (Canon 4)and Apostolic Constitutions VIII.28 — “A bishop lays on hands, ordains. . .a presbyter lays on hands, but does not ordain.” A council held at Alexandria (340) declared the orders conferred by Caluthus, a presbyter, null and void (Athanas., “Apol. contra Arianos”, ii).

The word is used in its technical meaning by Clement of Alexandria(Stromata VI.13, 106; cf. Apostolic Consitutions II.32). “A priest lays on hands, but does not ordain”.

It is a much-disputed question whether Abbots have ever been permitted to confer the subdiaconate and the diaconate. Many canonists hold that the subdiaconate, being of merely ecclesiastical institution, was formerly amounted one of the minor orders of the Church, and infer that before the time of Urban II (1099), Abbots could have given that order. But the further claim that Abbots have also conferred the diaconate cannot, apparently, be sustained, for the Bull of Innocent VIII, “Exposcit tuae devotionis” (9 April, 1489), in which this privilege is said to have been granted to certain Cistercian Abbots, makes no reference whatever to the diaconate.

And I would say if not the diaconate which is the lowest rank of Holy Orders, then certainly not the priesthood, and even if the diaconate, not without a Papal Bull. Luther and his followers seem to have had to steamroll through 1,400 years of Sacred Tradition and Church practice to get to a point so soon after the birth of the Church that the word for priest and bishop were in some instances interchangeable even though the offices and their respective inherent graces were not.
 
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