LDS & Alcohol.

[RebeccaJ]

BTW…I believe if the LDS can keep up in having members refrain from wicked water I say Amen! How they defend it Biblically would be speculation on my part though just to clarify.

I think for the most part they are successful. I know more than a few LDS who are sneaking the hooch. Ran into one at the state wine and liquor store recently, who was buying a pint to take with him to a Univ. of Utah football game. His very LDS wife has no idea, or if she does, she’s pretending like she doesn’t.

I think the clandestine nature of drinking alcohol appeals to some Mormons. Baptists have the same prohibition, for a different reason. Someone from Texas once told me some Baptists had liquor cabinets that they disguised as regular kitchen cabinets or other furniture, in their homes, so other Baptists wouldn’t know they had alcohol in their homes.

A guy who is LDS at my work doesn’t ever drink, which is unusual for my workplace. Alcohol and beer flow there like water. It’s always around. I consume a lot less than most because it makes me fat!

 

[flameburns623]

RebeccaJ.: OPTIMALLY, Mormons keep the WoW because they have made a prayerful and intimate COVENANT with their God to observe those things as part of their relationship with Him. And Mormons are taught, pretty regularly on what a “covenant” is supposed to mean: a living, vital relationship, not simply a rigid, dead contract mechanistically observed. Admittedly–LDS theology is Pelagian to it’s very core. But it is a diservice to truth and to meaningful dialogue to level charges against Mormons not far removed from the sorts of accusations levelled against Catholicism in some circles (Lorraine Boettner comes to mind).

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ.: OPTIMALLY, Mormons keep the WoW because they have made a prayerful and intimate COVENANT with their God to observe those things as part of their relationship with Him. And Mormons are taught, pretty regularly on what a “covenant” is supposed to mean: a living, vital relationship, not simply a rigid, dead contract mechanistically observed. Admittedly–LDS theology is Pelagian to it’s very core. But it is a diservice to truth and to meaningful dialogue to level charges against Mormons not far removed from the sorts of accusations levelled against Catholicism in some circles (Lorraine Boettner comes to mind).

That’s your reply, that I’m dishing up anti-Mormonism? I’ve come to expect that from Mormons.

“One keeps the Word of Wisdom knowing that obedience will not only bring freedom from addiction, but it will also add blessings of wisdom and treasures of knowledge.” lds.org

“I have heard many converts tell how they learned to live the Word of Wisdom to join the Church. Good health is not a requirement to join the Church. Obedience is.” byu.edu

I was raised LDS, there was never anything of Mormon covenants tied to the Word of Wisdom. It was a “health code”. It is not tied to any of the covenants that Mormons make. Not baptism, as their unbaptized children follow this code, not temple ceremonies as all LDS follow it, not just those who have been through their temple.

At the most, it will be tied to their view of the body as a temple that houses a pre-existing spirit…not abusing that “temple”. This is the same reason Mormons don’t generally get tattoos or body piercings.

These aren’t criticisms. They’re just facts. You seem to take the Mormon approach that facts are equal to be “anti”. I can’t do anything for you there.

 

[Sam_777]

I could be wrong Sam but I believe its considered grape juice Biblically by the LDS.

OK, an acceptable answer for the contradiction part.

 

[Sam_777]

Jesus was a Jew. The perfect Jew in fulfilling the law. The Jewish Sabbath meal involved drinking grape juice four times during the meal?

Grape juice or wine?

 

[Sam_777]

[bibledrb]mark 7:14-15[/bibledrb]

(1 Corinthians 10:23):
“Everything is permissible"but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”–but not everything is constructive.”

 

[Sam_777]

In the llifetimes of both Joseph Smith and of Brigham Young, the WoW was deemed advisory rather than absolutely prohibitive. It was sometime near the close of the 19th Century or just around the beginning of the 20th that the WoW became interpreted as a strict commandment,

Interesting…

 

[Sam_777]

http://mormonwines.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/carthagesmall20v2.jpg?w=300&h=200

Yep, just before his death:“Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered in a gunfight in the late afternoon of June 27, 1844. This drawing depicts the hours immediately before that gunfight, which Joseph, Hyrum, John Taylor, and Willard Richards spent smoking, drinking, and singing to lighten their mood.”

link

really !!!, was that authentic info? does LDS acknowledge that event?

 

[Sam_777]

wine in Biblical times did not have nearly the alcohol content of wine today

I do not believe that statement, because Noah got drunk from some wine only per (Genesis 9:21):
"When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent."

 

[Porknpie]

I do not believe that statement, because Noah got drunk from some wine only per (Genesis 9:21):
"When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent."

Short article on wine in ancient Israel. Tried to find a reliable source. Article points out that there were many types of wine and that some were “cut with water”. Sounds like a good way to stretch a paycheck.

wines-israel.co.il/len/apage/12075.php

 

[Janderich]

Now I understand that alcohol is prohibited in LDS per their (Word of Wisdom), my question is why THE MOST HIGH realm did not prohibit that from the beginning and waited 1833 years to reveal that to Joseph Smith while people were getting drunk and abusing the society all those years!!!

To understand the LDS way of thinking you must first understand that the Word of Wisdom is revelation from God. We take it as nothing less. Over the last 150+ years man is beginning to catch up to what has been revealed.

Now, if this is revelation from the Lord, he certainly doesn’t need to give a reason for it. It should be enough that he has given the instruction. It is a weak man who doubts all instruction from the Lord until he somehow convinces himself. However, the Lord in giving this revelation states why it was given. He says:

Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation - (D&C 89:4)

It seems that the revelation was provided because of evils and designs which were to be carried out by conspiring men specifically in these last days.

There is always need for revelation. As men change and new difficulties arise the Lord provides revelation to guide his saints. As it was in former days, so it is today.

 

[Jerusha]

really !!!, was that authentic info? does LDS acknowledge that event?

The picture is a biased representation, but that is historically recorded. Many Mormons choose to not research far enough to discover that, and the fact that Mormons in the Nauvoo period broke the WOW with regularity.

The main difference (that you might identify with) is that Mormons try to impose their lifestyle choices on others. I have a t-shirt that praises coffee. In a Mormon-dominated area, I received would-be withering looks when wearing it.

I did not drink at all during that time, but Mormons assumed that I did. Even today, I only have an occasional 3.2 beer.

 

[twopekinguys]

To understand the LDS way of thinking you must first understand that the Word of Wisdom is revelation from God. We take it as nothing less. Over the last 150+ years man is beginning to catch up to what has been revealed.

Now, if this is revelation from the Lord, he certainly doesn’t need to give a reason for it. It should be enough that he has given the instruction. It is a weak man who doubts all instruction from the Lord until he somehow convinces himself. However, the Lord in giving this revelation states why it was given. He says: It seems that the revelation was provided because of evils and designs which were to be carried out by conspiring men specifically in these last days.

There is always need for revelation. As men change and new difficulties arise the Lord provides revelation to guide his saints. As it was in former days, so it is today.

But you have no apostles.

Of course there is evidence. You have no apostles. The early church called and ordained new apostles when one of their group died.
Now you may reject the evidence but it is plain as day.

Since you don’t have any apostles, your so called “revelations”, are immaterial, and false.

 

[Jessup]

Alcohol is absolutely contradictory to the existence of family.
I support the LDS 100% in the words of wisdom. I think the Catholic church is in error for allowing real alcohol to be consumed by its members. At my parish, they raffle off bottles of alcohol during the fair.
To me that seems pretty contradictory to a family environment at a " Church" I don’t believe the wine people would have drank in Jesus’s time would have been equivalent to
Wild Turkey , or Bacardi 151.
I think you would have had to drink a gallon of it to get high, if it was even fermented at all.
Cheers! :thumbsup:

 

[twopekinguys]

Alcohol is absolutely contradictory to the existence of family.
I support the LDS 100% in the words of wisdom. I think the Catholic church is in error for allowing real alcohol to be consumed by its members. At my parish, they raffle off bottles of alcohol during the fair.
To me that seems pretty contradictory to a family environment at a " Church" I don’t believe the wine people would have drank in Jesus’s time would have been equivalent to
Wild Turkey , or Bacardi 151.
I think you would have had to drink a gallon of it to get high, if it was even fermented at all.

Cheers! :thumbsup:

Both of my parents drank alcohol (in moderation), and they were married 52 years, and raised 3 children.

None of us were abused. None of us have criminal records. All of us have college degrees. All of us have very good jobs. All of us have families.

Sound pretty detrimental to me.

 

[Porknpie]

Alcohol is absolutely contradictory to the existence of family.
I support the LDS 100% in the words of wisdom. I think the Catholic church is in error for allowing real alcohol to be consumed by its members. At my parish, they raffle off bottles of alcohol during the fair.
To me that seems pretty contradictory to a family environment at a " Church" I don’t believe the wine people would have drank in Jesus’s time would have been equivalent to
Wild Turkey , or Bacardi 151.
I think you would have had to drink a gallon of it to get high, if it was even fermented at all.

Cheers! :thumbsup:

Jessup, go back a page and read my previous post & article that I referenced. Making and drinking wine has deep roots in ancient Israel. The article mentions fermentation and that some wines were the forerunners of vermouths. There were around 60 different types of wine, some diluted with water for every day drinking (as I understand it). Turning water into wine is Jesus first public miracle and drinking wine was a normal part of everyday life, including it being consumed during the passover meal. With the new passover meal, we consecrate the bread and wine into the resurrected body and blood of our Lord. Jesus did not say to use grape juice, he instructed otherwise. Drinking alchohol of itself is not sinful. Drunkenness is sinful as many other things are taken to extreme (eating to much etc).

I am not advocating that you go out and buy yourself some Bacardi 151, but if you do, moderation is the key. I like my grey goose. My guess is that your church is raffling off bottles of alchohol that have been donated by church members. I’ve seen this too at our parish although it’s generally bottles of wine or gift baskets in which wine is one item in the basket.

I don’t drink a whole lot but I do enjoy my coffee. And I really feel sorry for the Mormons in not enjoying a morning cup of Joe. God gave us the coffee bean for a reason. Here’s a really good coffee company for those who like to try out different coffees. I recommend the Dark Sumatra. alterracoffee.com/
:coffeeread:

 

[Jessup]

Jessup, go back a page and read my previous post & article that I referenced. Making and drinking wine has deep roots in ancient Israel. The article mentions fermentation and that some wines were the forerunners of vermouths. There were around 60 different types of wine, some diluted with water for every day drinking (as I understand it). Turning water into wine is Jesus first public miracle and drinking wine was a normal part of everyday life, including it being consumed during the passover meal. With the new passover meal, we consecrate the bread and wine into the resurrected body and blood of our Lord. Jesus did not say to use grape juice, he instructed otherwise. Drinking alchohol of itself is not sinful. Drunkenness is sinful as many other things are taken to extreme (eating to much etc).

I am not advocating that you go out and buy yourself some Bacardi 151, but if you do, moderation is the key. I like my grey goose. My guess is that your church is raffling off bottles of alchohol that have been donated by church members. I’ve seen this too at our parish although it’s generally bottles of wine or gift baskets in which wine is one item in the basket.

I don’t drink a whole lot but I do enjoy my coffee. And I really feel sorry for the Mormons in not enjoying a morning cup of Joe. God gave us the coffee bean for a reason. Here’s a really good coffee company for those who like to try out different coffees. I recommend the Dark Sumatra. alterracoffee.com/
:coffeeread:

 I'm sorry you feel that way brother, but we'll have to disagree. I've grown up my whole life around family that is nothing more then a bunch of junkies. I feel that alcohol is the main root of evil next to pornography. I don't think Christ would have tainted himself with it.

For myself to hold on to so much anger over junkies and drunks, and try to seek forgiveness to them for the absolute hell in my life that they caused, then to go to church and ask Christ for help and read the bulletin petitioning with request for alcohol; for a raffle at a " Family fair" or advertise with the bulletin the family owned " Bar and Grill" is an absolute punch in the face. I’ll always see bartenders and owners, liquor store owners as predators and an enemy. That is why I believe the LDS is right about alcohol
Anyway, peace.

 

[Marie5890]

Alcohol was nothing short of evil in my family. A great deal of of dysfunction and deep wounds.

For me, having lived the WoW was a complete blessing. Complete and total.

And I am the first defend that it is one of the greatest fruits that Mormonism has to offer.

There is nothing detrimental in living the WoW. It never killed anyone to follow it’s precepts.

If I recall correctly, it’s one of the reasons Glenn Beck became LDS, and it’s saved his life, literally, he claims.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m sorry you feel that way brother, but we’ll have to disagree. I’ve grown up my whole life around family that is nothing more then a bunch of junkies. I feel that alcohol is the main root of evil next to pornography. I don’t think Christ would have tainted himself with it.
For myself to hold on to so much anger over junkies and drunks, and try to seek forgiveness to them for the absolute hell in my life that they caused, then to go to church and ask Christ for help and read the bulletin petitioning with request for alcohol; for a raffle at a " Family fair" or advertise with the bulletin the family owned " Bar and Grill" is an absolute punch in the face. I’ll always see bartenders and owners, liquor store owners as predators and an enemy. That is why I believe the LDS is right about alcohol
Anyway, peace.

Smoking and drugs too…

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t think Christ would have tainted himself with it.

Well, you would be wrong. Christ was a Jew and he drank wine which, as others have said, is a requirement of celebrating the Passover. His first miracle was creating wine.

For myself to hold on to so much anger over junkies and drunks, and try to seek forgiveness to them for the absolute hell in my life that they caused, then to go to church and ask Christ for help and read the bulletin petitioning with request for alcohol; for a raffle at a " Family fair" or advertise with the bulletin the family owned " Bar and Grill" is an absolute punch in the face. I’ll always see bartenders and owners, liquor store owners as predators and an enemy. That is why I believe the LDS is right about alcohol

Anyway, peace.

Now, as to the reality of living in an alcoholic and/or addicted household, I can think of little if anything that can quite compare to that nightmare. I have experienced it in my own family and can very honestly say there were times when I didn’t know how I was going to make it. I remember seeing people on the street smile yet I could not remember what it felt like to be happy. It is an all-consuming disease, but it is a disease that not all people have. I think we tend to go too far one way or the other. There were times when I would have given anything to live in a dry country, much less a dry county. But the truth is that there are many, the majority, in fact, who can drink responsibly. For those who cannot, I don’t have an answer. I wish it was something that could be diagnosed and that those who are alcoholic were somehow prohibited from buying alocohol, but that is just another of the pathetic day dreams that use to run through my head. Anyway, I can empathize, brother, but there really are two sides to this coin.