LDS & Alcohol.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam_777
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sam_777 said:
Revelation to whom !!!, I would have accepted that claim if Joseph Smith was really a saint, but he was giving instructions and not following it himself 🤷 as shown in this post.
Click to expand...
Posters on this site always see contradictions when there are none. They want to hold Joseph Smith or Brigham Young to the same standards we have today and then call them hypocrites. Such is not the case. It seems that one of the most difficult things for others to understand is continuing revelation. Some commandments we have today were not in force in the early days of the church. Some commandments they had are not in force today. There is no contradiction in such things if it comes through revelation.

The Word of Wisdom is one such principle. It was originally given to Joseph Smith “not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom” (D&C 89:2) It was wisdom from the Lord but not forced on the people. Joseph F. Smith, a later prophet, explained why:
The reason undoubtedly why the Word of Wisdom was given—as not by ‘commandment or restraint’ was that at that time, at least, if it had been given as a commandment it would have brought every man, addicted to the use of these noxious things, under condemnation; so the Lord was merciful and gave them a chance to overcome, before He brought them under the law. (Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report (October 1913), 14. )
Click to expand...
It is always easy to lay blame. An individual can take any man - be they prophet, priest, or king - and find some supposed fault. To those who would do such things I say look to yourself before trying to hold a man to a standard you don’t believe in.
 
There is nothing wrong by living by the precepts of the WoW.

Infact there is wisdom. 🤷

It is a healthy way of living. That cant be denied.

I do enjoy an occasional drink now and then and I love my coffee in the morning.
But I have no regrets having lived the WoW thru my teens and 20’s. Not one regret.
 
Janderich said:
Posters on this site always see contradictions when there are none. They want to hold Joseph Smith or Brigham Young to the same standards we have today and then call them hypocrites. Such is not the case. It seems that one of the most difficult things for others to understand is continuing revelation. Some commandments we have today were not in force in the early days of the church. Some commandments they had are not in force today. There is no contradiction in such things if it comes through revelation.

The Word of Wisdom is one such principle. It was originally given to Joseph Smith “not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom” (D&C 89:2) It was wisdom from the Lord but not forced on the people. Joseph F. Smith, a later prophet, explained why: It is always easy to lay blame. An individual can take any man - be they prophet, priest, or king - and find some supposed fault. To those who would do such things I say look to yourself before trying to hold a man to a standard you don’t believe in.
Click to expand...
You yourself have shown the contradiction with this very post.

God does not change his mind. God does not change. God is constant.

You said, “Some commandments we have today were not in force in the early days of the church. Some commandments they had are not in force today.”

God does not bend, or change his mind based on what us lowly humans are doing at the time. God didn’t change his mind on blacks and the priesthood, even though no major school would play BYU, and the same applies to alcohol.
 
twopekinguys said:
You yourself have shown the contradiction with this very post.

God does not change his mind. God does not change. God is constant.

You said, “Some commandments we have today were not in force in the early days of the church. Some commandments they had are not in force today.”

God does not bend, or change his mind based on what us lowly humans are doing at the time. God didn’t change his mind on blacks and the priesthood, even though no major school would play BYU, and the same applies to alcohol.
Click to expand...
And yet . . . we do not observe the dietary laws of Leviticus nor the Sabbath as early Christians DID observe them, until a fuller understanding of the revelation of Christ unfolded. Not to engage in an apologetic for Mormonism, but by way of calling for more even-handed and fair-minded treatment of them. That’s a strength of the very best Catholic apologists, and one of the things which brought me back home.
 
Janderich said:
Posters on this site always see contradictions when there are none. They want to hold Joseph Smith or Brigham Young to the same standards we have today and then call them hypocrites. Such is not the case. It seems that one of the most difficult things for others to understand is continuing revelation. Some commandments we have today were not in force in the early days of the church. Some commandments they had are not in force today. There is no contradiction in such things if it comes through revelation.

The Word of Wisdom is one such principle. It was originally given to Joseph Smith “not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom” (D&C 89:2) It was wisdom from the Lord but not forced on the people. Joseph F. Smith, a later prophet, explained why: It is always easy to lay blame. An individual can take any man - be they prophet, priest, or king - and find some supposed fault. To those who would do such things I say look to yourself before trying to hold a man to a standard you don’t believe in.
Click to expand...
That can be attributed to the initial mindset of the different denominations. Doctrinally, nothing has changed in the last 2,000 years of Catholicism, and it’s hard to grasp that other denominations are okay with the concept of changing doctrine. I think it has it’s roots in the very belief of the nature of God, and we know that Catholics and the LDS have very differing ideas there.
 
Janderich said:
The Word of Wisdom is one such principle. It was originally given to Joseph Smith “not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom” (D&C 89:2) It was wisdom from the Lord but not forced on the people.
Click to expand...
Even if I agree with you, I cannot accept that when GOD puts His trust in a person, that person does not follow GOD’s recommendations :nope:, yet that person is assumed to be called a prophet by his followers !!!

He suppose to be a role model for others to follow, he is nothing more than another Muhammed, both were giving instructions to their followers but not following it themselves!
 
And both through private revelation in contrast to the Public Revelation of Christ.
 
twopekinguys said:
You yourself have shown the contradiction with this very post.

God does not change his mind. God does not change. God is constant.

You said, “Some commandments we have today were not in force in the early days of the church. Some commandments they had are not in force today.”

God does not bend, or change his mind based on what us lowly humans are doing at the time. God didn’t change his mind on blacks and the priesthood, even though no major school would play BYU, and the same applies to alcohol.
Click to expand...
Of course God does not change. But the direction he provides to his people does. If you have not seen this in the Old and New Testements then you have misunderstood much of the Bible. I get similar statements like yours a lot on this site. I’m not sure where it comes from. Is there some Catholic teaching stating that God will never give additional direction to his children or that all has been revealed that ever will be revealed?
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (Article of Faith #9)
Click to expand...
 
Sam_777 said:
Even if I agree with you, I cannot accept that when GOD puts His trust in a person, that person does not follow GOD’s recommendations :nope:, yet that person is assumed to be called a prophet by his followers !!!

He suppose to be a role model for others to follow, he is nothing more than another Muhammed, both were giving instructions to their followers but not following it themselves!
Click to expand...
Why do you make requirements of a prophet that are not in keeping with the Bible? Why do you judge a man when he has broken no commandment? Would that I was half the man Joseph Smith was.

Prophets are not perfect people, they never were. But the are very good people who are called of God by revelation and speak what He would have them say.
 
Janderich said:
. . . . Is there some Catholic teaching stating that God will never give additional direction to his children or that all has been revealed that ever will be revealed?
Click to expand...
Actually . . . yes, there is. But to discuss that fully would take us into areas such as the “development of doctrine”, what a Pope or Council does when they render an infallible decree, how Catholics understand the role of private revelations versus public Revelation, and how the Holy Spirit works to lead and inspire individuals in their daily lives. Meanwhile–I would call upon my fellow Catholics to take to heart the words of the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI from this weekend just past, wherein he reminded us that even non-Catholics are capable of doing good things, a capacity we ought not begrudge them.
 
Janderich said:
Is there some Catholic teaching stating that God will never give additional direction to his children or that all has been revealed that ever will be revealed?
Click to expand...
Reason would tell us that somethings can never change and in Mormonism some of these things have changed; Blood Atonement, Adam-God, or Mark of Cain.
 
Stephen168 said:
Why would you think a Christian would have to?
Click to expand...
Until the vision of St. Peter–and possibly for some decades thereafter–the early Church thought so. Paul had to address this issue in several of the Epistles, and even some Church decrees extending into the 5th Century or so kept clarifying this issue. Point being: from Adam to Noah there were certain standards of righteousness. From Noah to Moses were another set of standards, which I believe included dietary restrictions. From Moses to Jesus were another set of standards of holiness. From Jesus forward there has been another. Has God changed? Or has His way of instructing His People changed? Has His way of covenanting changed? There is nothing inherently wrong in the keeping of the WoW. Hot drinks–caffeinated hot beverages–MAY be linked to slightly elevated instances of throat or stomach cancer, though I think the evidence is up in the air. So . . . rejoice that Mormons seek to honor God in their obedience, even if wrong.
 
flameburns623 said:
Point being: from Adam to Noah there were certain standards of righteousness. From Noah to Moses were another set of standards, which I believe included dietary restrictions. From Moses to Jesus were another set of standards of holiness.
Click to expand...
Not Christian
flameburns623 said:
From Jesus forward there has been another.
Click to expand...
Christian. Christ fulfilled the law, so there is no reason a Christians would follow it.
flameburns623 said:
So . . . rejoice that Mormons seek to honor God in their obedience, even if wrong.
Click to expand...
No, thanks. I see nothing biblical, or Christian in the American temperance movement. Non-Catholic religions have some truth, this just isn’t one of them.
 
flameburns623 said:
Until the vision of St. Peter–and possibly for some decades thereafter–the early Church thought so. Paul had to address this issue in several of the Epistles, and even some Church decrees extending into the 5th Century or so kept clarifying this issue. Point being: from Adam to Noah there were certain standards of righteousness. From Noah to Moses were another set of standards, which I believe included dietary restrictions. From Moses to Jesus were another set of standards of holiness. From Jesus forward there has been another. Has God changed? Or has His way of instructing His People changed? Has His way of covenanting changed? There is nothing inherently wrong in the keeping of the WoW. Hot drinks–caffeinated hot beverages–MAY be linked to slightly elevated instances of throat or stomach cancer, though I think the evidence is up in the air. So . . . rejoice that Mormons seek to honor God in their obedience, even if wrong.
Click to expand...
And if the story of St. Peter’s death had Peter following the dietary laws of Leviticus— going against his own revelation, I’d also question Peter’s legitimacy and the legitimacy of his revelation…

“Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us… I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards.”
i4m.com/think/history/fallen_prophet.htm
 
campeador said:
And if the story of St. Peter’s death had Peter following the dietary laws of Leviticus— going against his own revelation, I’d also question Peter’s legitimacy and the legitimacy of his revelation…

“Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us… I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards.”
i4m.com/think/history/fallen_prophet.htm
Click to expand...
Lest we forget: Paul confronted Peter for hypocrisy at one point. And while I don’t want to engage an extended polemic on this story–I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet or even especially imbued with sanctity–a lot of stories attributed to the early era of Mormonism have either credibility issues or are retold sans context which would make them less fabulous.
 
Janderich said:
Why do you make requirements of a prophet that are not in keeping with the Bible? Why do you judge a man when he has broken no commandment? Would that I was half the man Joseph Smith was.

Prophets are not perfect people, they never were. But the are very good people who are called of God by revelation and speak what He would have them say.
Click to expand...
One missed, or failed prophecy, and that person is a false prophet. JS missed more than one I’m afraid.

With that being said, a church founded by a false prophet cannot be true.

17 Then Yahweh said to me, 18 “What they have said is well said. From their own brothers I shall raise up a prophet like yourself; 19 I shall put my words into his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him. Anyone who refuses to listen to my words, spoken by him in my name, will have to render an account to me. 20 But the prophet who presumes to say something in my name which I have not commanded him to say, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.” (Deuteronomy 18:17-20)
 
Janderich said:
Of course God does not change. But the direction he provides to his people does.
Click to expand...
So, you are saying god does not change according to mormon theology.

The 10 commandments say “Thou shall not kill.”, but yet according to mormon theology, abortion is allowed.

Seems to me, the mormon god changed his mind, due to social pressure.

No blacks and the priesthood, then presto chango, it’s ok. But it happens to coincide with major schools refusing to play BYU.

Seems to me, the mormon god changed his mind, due to social pressure.

Enlighten us how the mormon god is directing his people in light of these two issues.

Just for the record, the Catholic church has maintained the same teaching on both of these issues from the beginning.

See the difference?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top