LDS & Alcohol.

[Janderich]

So, you are saying god does not change according to mormon theology.

The 10 commandments say “Thou shall not kill.”, but yet according to mormon theology, abortion is allowed.

Seems to me, the mormon god changed his mind, due to social pressure.

No blacks and the priesthood, then presto chango, it’s ok. But it happens to coincide with major schools refusing to play BYU.

Seems to me, the mormon god changed his mind, due to social pressure.

Enlighten us how the mormon god is directing his people in light of these two issues.

Just for the record, the Catholic church has maintained the same teaching on both of these issues from the beginning.

See the difference?

We believe the Lord loves his children and gives them direction regularly. I think you have already made up your mind on the two issues you present.

 

[Porknpie]

One missed, or failed prophecy, and that person is a false prophet. JS missed more than one I’m afraid.

With that being said, a church founded by a false prophet cannot be true.

17 Then Yahweh said to me, 18 “What they have said is well said. From their own brothers I shall raise up a prophet like yourself; 19 I shall put my words into his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him. Anyone who refuses to listen to my words, spoken by him in my name, will have to render an account to me. 20 But the prophet who presumes to say something in my name which I have not commanded him to say, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.” (Deuteronomy 18:17-20)

 

[Sam_777]

Prophets are not perfect people, they never were. But the are very good people who are called of God by revelation and speak what He would have them say.

I agree with you on the above point BUT if Joseph Smith was not a perfect person THEN why GOD did not send His revelation through Pope Gregory XVI during that time, I would expect that Pope Gregory XVI to be better than Joseph Smith for that prophecy task…

 

[TexanKnight]

So God changed His mind.

Hmmmm…your god changes his mind so often it is like he has no clue what is going on…

 

[Janderich]

I agree with you on the above point BUT if Joseph Smith was not a perfect person THEN why GOD did not send His revelation through Pope Gregory XVI during that time, I would expect that Pope Gregory XVI to be better than Joseph Smith for that prophecy task…

The Lord chooses the weak things of this world to do his work not they that suppose themselves learned. He cannot work with such people. Their mind is settled and they will not accept such things as visions and new books of scripture.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, …But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him." (1 Cor 20-21, 27-29 NIV)

Joseph started as a weak, simple 14 year old boy. But he had sense enough to know that he could not discover the truth by himself. He had no preconceived notions . He would simply ask God in faith to know the truth. He did not expect, but would accept, the possibility of visions and revelations. This type of humble person the Lord can work with and teach until their wisdom reaches the heavens and their understand is profound.

 

[Stephen168]

So God changed His mind.

his mind? I don’t know

Reason would tell us that somethings can never change and in Mormonism some of these things have changed; Blood Atonement, Adam-God, or Mark of Cain.

Mormons change who he is and other unchangeables.

 

[campeador]

Joseph started as a weak, simple 14 year old boy. But he had sense enough to know that he could not discover the truth by himself. He had no preconceived notions . He would simply ask God in faith to know the truth. He did not expect, but would accept, the possibility of visions and revelations. This type of humble person the Lord can work with and teach until their wisdom reaches the heavens and their understand is profound.

Well, you certainly paint a rosy picture of young Joseph.

Here are his father-in-law’s impressions:

I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called “money-diggers;” and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure. His appearance at this time, was that of a careless young man - not very well educated, and very saucy and insolent to his father.

Smith, and his father, with several other ‘money-diggers’ boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the ‘money-diggers’ great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found - he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discourged, and soon after dispersed. This took place about the 17th of November, 1825; and one of the company gave me his note for $12.68 for his board, which is still unpaid.

After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve; he then left the place. Not long after this, he returned, and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent.
Affidavit of Isaac Hale, father-in-law of Joseph Smith, March 20th, 1834.

 

[Z_Ninja]

The Lord chooses the weak things of this world to do his work not they that suppose themselves learned. He cannot work with such people. Their mind is settled and they will not accept such things as visions and new books of scripture. Joseph started as a weak, simple 14 year old boy. But he had sense enough to know that he could not discover the truth by himself. He had no preconceived notions . He would simply ask God in faith to know the truth. He did not expect, but would accept, the possibility of visions and revelations. This type of humble person the Lord can work with and teach until their wisdom reaches the heavens and their understand is profound.

so you are saying Pope Gregory was a self-proclaimed learned man and basically was promoting himself and that Joseph Smith was the more humble person?
God can work with whomever he chooses. And men have freewill to either be who God wants them to be or not. Your argument is the same I’ve heard often when I’m told that I’m not praying hard enough or that I’ve already set my answer in my mind when I am praying. So only members of the LDS church are enlightened enough to receive any message from God? Saul of Tarsus was not a humble or weak type of person, and I think he did some pretty good things for Christianity.

 

[twopekinguys]

We believe the Lord loves his children and gives them direction regularly. I think you have already made up your mind on the two issues you present.

So I am correct then. The mormon god changes his mind based on social pressure.

Don’t you think he should be forming the social pressure, instead of bending to it?

I’m sorry, but the God I believe in, Love, and Worship is much stronger than that.

 

[twopekinguys]

We believe the Lord loves his children and gives them direction regularly. I think you have already made up your mind on the two issues you present.

How is the mormon god giving “direction” on these issues, by changing his mind. Isn’t he confusing the issues? Or is he confused by the issues?

 

[Janderich]

so you are saying Pope Gregory was a self-proclaimed learned man and basically was promoting himself and that Joseph Smith was the more humble person?
God can work with whomever he chooses. And men have freewill to either be who God wants them to be or not. Your argument is the same I’ve heard often when I’m told that I’m not praying hard enough or that I’ve already set my answer in my mind when I am praying. So only members of the LDS church are enlightened enough to receive any message from God? Saul of Tarsus was not a humble or weak type of person, and I think he did some pretty good things for Christianity.

I don’t wish to say anything specifically negative about Pope Gregory, I did not know the man. So please don’t take what I say as specifically pointing to a particular person. Anyone who is humble and asks in faith may receive a message from God if He wills it. But when God commands, the person must be willing to follow.

To elaborate on this point let me propose a little thought experiment. Suppose that the Pope had received the specific revelations in the order, time, and manner that Joseph Smith did. If he acts according to one revelation then he will receive the next. For simplicity sake I will highlight just a few of the first:

1. The Father and Son appear as two distinct personages and tell him to join no church in existence for they are all wrong.
   Question: Would he leave the Catholic church (or otherwise declare it as wrong until the Lord provides more information)? Would he accept that the Father and Son are two distinct and separate individuals?
2. An angel appears and tells him that there is a new book of scripture hidden in the ground. He is to go find the book and translate it using a seer stone.
   Question: Will he use the stones, translate the new book of scripture, and present it to the world?
3. First John the Baptist, and then Peter, James and John appear to restore God’s priesthood which was not found on the earth.
   Question: Would he denounce the priesthood he believed he held and tell the world he now held the true priesthood?

The list could go on but I think even with these three instances the facts may be seen.

 

[Porknpie]

To elaborate on this point let me propose a little thought experiment. Suppose that the Pope had received the specific revelations in the order, time, and manner that Joseph Smith did.

Not a new thought: Joseph Smith never received any revelation from God and there never was a great apostasy in the church. You can not prove either of the above and “reason” discounts the latter too, that Jesus would create a church, allow it to fail despite his saying he would be with it until the end of time and then appoint JS as prophet 1800 years later… a JS that was an adulterer, polygamist and con man. Tex points out he drank alcohol too.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t wish to say anything specifically negative about Pope Gregory, I did not know the man. So please don’t take what I say as specifically pointing to a particular person. Anyone who is humble and asks in faith may receive a message from God if He wills it. But when God commands, the person must be willing to follow.

To elaborate on this point let me propose a little thought experiment. Suppose that the Pope had received the specific revelations in the order, time, and manner that Joseph Smith did. If he acts according to one revelation then he will receive the next. For simplicity sake I will highlight just a few of the first:

1. The Father and Son appear as two distinct personages and tell him to join no church in existence for they are all wrong.
   Question: Would he leave the Catholic church (or otherwise declare it as wrong until the Lord provides more information)? Would he accept that the Father and Son are two distinct and separate individuals?
2. An angel appears and tells him that there is a new book of scripture hidden in the ground. He is to go find the book and translate it using a seer stone.
   Question: Will he use the stones, translate the new book of scripture, and present it to the world?
3. First John the Baptist, and then Peter, James and John appear to restore God’s priesthood which was not found on the earth.
   Question: Would he denounce the priesthood he believed he held and tell the world he now held the true priesthood?

The list could go on but I think even with these three instances the facts may be seen.

Also proselyting.

But don’t let the facts get in the way.

1. No one was there but Smith. ANYONE can say they have a vision. His account of it…9 versions. You’ve gone with the one that matches what you want to believe.
2. Also a private “vision”, if it even occurred at all. One that has a strong occult contexts.
3. You do understand, you can make all the claims you want. Only Mormons believe dead people are “angels” and Smith was visited by them OFTEN. More than any other person ever known.

Don’t be so gullible.

 

[Z_Ninja]

1. The Father and Son appear as two distinct personages and tell him to join no church in existence for they are all wrong.
   Question: Would he leave the Catholic church (or otherwise declare it as wrong until the Lord provides more information)? Would he accept that the Father and Son are two distinct and separate individuals?
2. An angel appears and tells him that there is a new book of scripture hidden in the ground. He is to go find the book and translate it using a seer stone.
   Question: Will he use the stones, translate the new book of scripture, and present it to the world?
3. First John the Baptist, and then Peter, James and John appear to restore God’s priesthood which was not found on the earth.
   Question: Would he denounce the priesthood he believed he held and tell the world he now held the true priesthood?

The list could go on but I think even with these three instances the facts may be seen.

1. Why hadn’t the Father and Son appeared in such manner to anyone else ever anywhere else in the Bible? In the OT, God spoke to Moses in the form of the burning bush. In the NT, Jesus appeared to the apostles after he was resurrected, and appeared to Saul when he asked why are you persecuting me… But they never appeared together as 2 distinct physical bodies as Joseph Smith claims.

2, Would this be the same seer stones he put in his hat to seek treasure for people, without ever really finding any?

3.Peter, James and John had their own students while they were living. Were they not good enough to pass on the priesthood to? Ignatius of Antioch being a student of John as was Polycarp of Smyrna, Clement of Rome was consecrated by Peter.