LDS: Alpha and Omega, the nature of God.

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Actually, the Catholic Church does not consider Mormons heretics. Your beliefs are so far beyond Christianity that it considers Mormonism a different religion altogether. Here is a quotation from the “The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith” which arose concerning the validity of Mormon baptism:
SteveVH, Do I need to cite your own church’s website on heresies? Please look them up! The Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, Alberginsians … you cannot tell me with a straight face that they are more like the Catholic Church than we are.

Your quotes on Mormon Baptism in no way begin to address the breath of the traditional term “heretic.” Do you really believe that the modern Catholic Church would accept the Arian baptism?
 
This is some advice I once got from a Catholic Saint. It helped me have a breakthrough in my Mormon thought process. The advice being to think of God as creation itself, to think of myself as created. Maybe it will help you Cow Boy.

“When I was just twenty it gave me great satisfaction that I managed to read, and understand, the Ten Categories of Aristotle without a teacher. I would mention the book at every opportunity, slipping the title in with a touch of awe, smiling to myself when lecturers would comment how difficult it had been for them to answer it.

And much good it did me! Indeed, it was harmful, because it encouraged me to think of You, O Lord, as if you were part of what you had made, instead of being its essence and origin. Sadly, I had my back toward the light and my eyes fixed on the darkness. I could understand without difficulty logic, rhetoric, geometry, music, and arithmetic, but I did not see that my intelligence itself was a gift of God and that all the true things I learned came from him, their source. What advantage was it to me that I had a nimble wit when all the while I turned from good and clung to evil? Little did I realize then how much better off were all those (as I saw them) “simple” souls who lacked my native intelligence but put their trust in God."

.…Saint Augustine

www.utahmission.com
 
The answer to that is NO. That’s very clear. Heavenly Father is not a created being.

But then, in some respects, neither are you. Intelligences
I think it is hard for Catholics to get their arms around the idea that Mormons don’t believe that any of us were created. Can we be uncreated and still dependent upon God the Father for our ultimate existence? That I think is the problem Catholics see with Mormonism.
 
I am amazed, in awe when I think about where I came from. The fact that I was once nothing, not thinking about nothing as if it were something. I am speaking about nothing. God creates me, yet being God He has also always known me, even before I was created. Then as a created being he gives me His breath of life.
Where nothing becomes something, something very special to God, given as a gift to His Son Jesus. Then because God is all loving he has given me the freedom of choice. To love and serve Him forever or to serve myself forever with no love to be found. Knowing my Lord and my God the choice is pretty clear. It is the Catholic Church, Christ Himself that has opened my eyes to this reality. But still I find myself in the battle of wills, my own or His. In this he has given me the great and Holy Sacrament of Confession where the smaller battles are won at each Confession.

I know my place in Creation and this give me great joy. To see myself as small as I really am helps me to see God as huge as He really is. Only through the haze of this life can I see a glimpse of these things. I look foreword to more clarity in the life to come.
Thers is only one intelligence, it is God. We get to share in it through Jesus. It isn’t about us as it is all about Jesus. I am good with that.
 
SteveVH, Do I need to cite your own church’s website on heresies? Please look them up! The Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, Alberginsians … you cannot tell me with a straight face that they are more like the Catholic Church than we are.

Your quotes on Mormon Baptism in no way begin to address the breath of the traditional term “heretic.” Do you really believe that the modern Catholic Church would accept the Arian baptism?
Listing heresies does not define heresy. First you have to be a Christian to be a heretic.
St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt itsdogmas”. "The right Christian faith consists in giving one’s voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics.
The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith which arose concerning the validity of Mormon baptism:
As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 §2.
 
SteveVH, Do I need to cite your own church’s website on heresies? Please look them up! The Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, Alberginsians … you cannot tell me with a straight face that they are more like the Catholic Church than we are.

Your quotes on Mormon Baptism in no way begin to address the breath of the traditional term “heretic.” Do you really believe that the modern Catholic Church would accept the Arian baptism?
I understand that the distinction between heresy and a total departure from the faith gets very thin and I am glad that I am not the one who makes that call. As I understand it, heresy is an error deriving from a false understanding of Christian doctrine, as the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith stated. The Church views Mormon doctrine, not as a false understanding, but a complete departure; another gospel completely. Arius erred in his understanding of the nature of Christ; the relationship between his humanity and his divinity, yet he still believed Jesus to be the second Person of the Trinity.

When we are baptised, we are baptised, not in the name of the Catholic Church, but in the name of God, the Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Church, therefore, cannot accept as valid, a baptism into a different god, or three different gods.

"The formula used by the Mormons might seem at first sight to be a Trinitarian formula. The text states: “Being commissioned by Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (cf. D&C 20:73). The similarities with the formula used by the Catholic Church are at first sight obvious, but in reality they are only apparent. There is not in fact a fundamental doctrinal agreement. There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity." (The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)

Bottom line is that Mormon theology completely departs from Christian theology, so much so, that from the Church’s standpoint, a Mormon is baptized into a false god; one that does not really exist. Arius believed in the fundamental Christian doctrine of the Trinity and so was speaking of the same God, therefore the intention was the same, even though his understanding of Christ’s nature was flawed.

One thing that occurs to me at this point is the fact that the LDS church doesn’t accept anyone’s baptism but their own, but seems to get upset that we don’t accept theirs. I believe the reasons for rejecting each other’s baptisms are the same. We simply do not believe in the same God.
 
Listing heresies does not define heresy. First you have to be a Christian to be a heretic.
Did you not grasp that was precisely my point? :rolleyes:
The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning.
Again, if you look at the Arian beliefs, or the Marcionites, or Ebionites, or the views of others who your church has traditionally called heretics, your statement is absurd.

Your church’s statement about why our baptism is not valid under Catholic law is completely respectful. I’ve got no problem with that whatsoever, other than the good faith error which claims that we don’t believe that Jesus instituted baptism. :confused:

I don’t see your official Church going on these rants that mormons aren’t Christians. That’s nothing but a few of you going off the reservation to join and Evangelical pogrom. That’s entirely inconsistent with the official statements of your Church leaders. Not to mention spitting in your own history.
 
Cowboy Pete,

What you need to realize is that our beliefs, our worship, our practices, our spirit and tone has not changed for 2,000 years. There are Jews who are now members of the Catholic Church and admit they now experience being more Jewish than ever before.
So the Catholic Church – in the mystical sense of faith and spirit participating in the sacramental life— is the New Jerusalem.

A woman living in this state converted. She was brought up in an anti-Catholic Protestant family. She wanted to see what the beliefs were of the early Christians. She obtained and reflected deeply on ancient teachings of Christianity. Finally, she got hold of a contemporary Catholic catechism and was shocked to find out that our teachings today were the same as at the beginning.

This constancy of faith, belief, and practice is the work of the Holy Spirit, not man.

In contrast, here is a link to the history of Mormonism’s changing beliefs, its rejection and labelling of Christianity as corrupt and abomination…implying that our countless martyrs died in vain and not in the true faith of Jesus Christ.

If you label Christianity as corrupt, as an abomination, and you base your beliefs instead on a carnal man and his claims to an angel named Moroni, not found in Scripture. You then have to seriously let go of the Bible as it was assembled by the ancient Catholic Church. Just use the book of Mormon and your documents.

Because when you use Mormon sources to now reinterpret Sacred Scripture, you still will not end up in the same place in Christianity, otherwise you would be Christian.

What you need to do is let go of Mormon sources. Instead go to independent and scholarly, academic sources regarding early Christian thought. Get hold of a universal Catholic catechism. And read what we truly believe…go from page one to the next page…don’t skip because you will then lose progression of thought and real understanding of our faith.
 
Gnosticism was the primary heresy of early Christianity as well as those who rejected Christ when He said we would eat His body and drink His blood…recall those many who left Him before the Last Supper. The Apostles endured because they knew He alone would give them eternal life.

The Apostles Creed was formed. And Catholicism only follows the testimony of the Apostles because they witnessed our Lord.

St. Paul warns us not to put our trust into men or angels but to Christ alone. And Christ gave us the Holy Spirit to guide and lead us in the truth.

Final revelation of Who Christ is came at the Council of Nicea, because Christ’s Divine and Human nature had to be further defined.

If the Church had lost faith in truth and followed Arius, then we would be more like Mormons and believe eventually in the plurality of gods and subsequently regress back to paganism.

Just as the Old Testament affirmed over and over again in the One True God, there are many references to God and His Spirit…in essence, two persons…Christ is the Eternal Word…the Word of God through which the carnal world was raised.

The Risen Christ now brings all mankind and all of creation up to Him one in Being with the Father.

Christianity’s basic understanding was that belief in God became a visible, indestructible reality of God now established among mankind, and that all people were now welcome to join His kingdom – not of being exclusive, holier than thou, but able to enter into a life of love, forgiveness, peace, joy, mercy, fidelity in marriage and the sanctity of family.

The term, ‘Lord’, was used more and more by ancient Christians…the personalizing of God among us—the true intent of Jesus and the Walk at Emmaus, not personal interpretation based on burning of the bosom that would lead one farther away from orthodox Christianity – Christ among us, God truly our Father.

So now with Christ, our trials and sufferings have become light, no more bitterness by the sweat of the brow Adam and Eve were afflicted with because of breaking away from trust in God.

The new kingdom of Christ slowly worked its way into Christian society where forgiveness began to reign instead of former tit for tat as one would find in wars, skirmishes and disputes in ancient times.

This new kingdom of Christ gave way to theologians who drew exclusively on the New Testament in the development of the science of Christology.

Catholicism is based on Christology.

It is Catholicism that Christianity grew, and whose baptismal rite is in use by practically all Protestant denominations making the Protestants our separated brethren. They are still members of the Catholic Church by rite of baptism.

Arius denied the divinity of Christ. For Arius, ‘the Word had a beginning, and was even liable to change and sin. This was tantamount to denying all finality to the revelation of Christ and opening the way to a resurgence of pagan polytheism, with its myriads of intermediate gods and demons.’

Arius’ stand was akin to Mormonism’s stand.

And thus the Council of Nicea brought forth the final revelation of Christ that Christ is of the same substance as the Father. St. Athanasius was the leader in opposing Arius and his believers, the Nicenes. St. Athanasius was exiled 5 times as bishop by them.

The heresy coming out from Arius was ‘the Son was like the Father’.

For Christ to save us from sin, He had to be divine. St. Athanasius found that the term, ‘HOMOOUSIOS’, meaning identical in substance conveyed both distinction and in dentity.

God is love. And subsequently God is relational. How can we say we are of love without relationship? So the nature of God is love, relational, and God is defined as the Holy Trinity.

St. Athanasius taught with the new word, ‘consubstantial’—only the Catholic Church has this word, because the Catholic Church created it for our science of Christology–
there is no other source in the world on Christology except Christ’s Church…

St. Athanasius taught that the Spirit was consubstantial with Father and Son. 'The difficult problem of how he was distinct from Father and Son while sharing the same essence was solved by the differentiating between their modes of origin; the Son is generated but the Spirit proceeds.

Ironically, Mormon sophists are now using St. Athanasius as a reference to prove Joseph Smith was right along …this use now claimed ‘a miracle’ by Mormons that we become gods in Mormon sense…when in fact St. Athanasius taught the opposite.
This is the work of false teachers St. Paul warned us about who corrupt the true faith in Jesus Christ.

We believers in Christ partake in His divine grace He has shared with us. But God alone is God. We will never be gods in our own right.
 
you base your beliefs instead on a carnal man
We don’t. We confess Joseph Smith’s errors freely. We follow only what God established through him.
If you label Christianity as corrupt, as an abomination
I don’t. We never did. What the Book of Mormon specifies as abomination are:
  1. The abominable belief that there is no free will, and that God has predestined some people for heaven, and others for damnation.
  2. The belief that unbaptized children go to hell.
Both of these views were common among the Christian sects in New York when Joseph Smith established the church.

At this time, the Catholic church (and most Christian sects) have rejected both of those abominable views.
 
Traditionally, your church has called people like me (and with far less Orthodox opinions than mine) “Christian Heretics.” The new trend towards declaring us “not Christian” comes right from the Evangelical Protestant playbook, and thereby constitutes something of an heresy in itself.
You have to be a Christian to be a “Christian heretic.” The Catholic Church has determined the Mormon belief about the trinity falls outside of Christianity.
SteveVH, Do I need to cite your own church’s website on heresies? Please look them up! The Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, Alberginsians … you cannot tell me with a straight face that they are more like the Catholic Church than we are.
Your quotes on Mormon Baptism in no way begin to address the breath of the traditional term “heretic.” Do you really believe that the modern Catholic Church would accept the Arian baptism?
None of this changes the fact that the Catholic Church has determined the Mormon belief about the trinity falls outside of Christianity.
Did you not grasp that was precisely my point? :rolleyes:
Your ‘point’ seems to be to claim Mormons are more Christian than Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, or the Alberginsians. But again none of this changes the fact that the Catholic Church has determined the Mormon belief about the trinity falls outside of Christianity.
 
You cannot compare Mormonism with Catholicism.

Just comparing the establishment of Christianity through Christ’s Church and Mormonism is very different.

We are based on Jesus Christ, God, not Joseph Smith.

A former Mormon affirmed this link as quite comprehensive. I pray for the Mormon people very day that the veil will be lifted and that they come to the truth.

www.Mormonthink.com

Man was created with free will. The Church never condemned the unborn or infants or innocent to hell.
 
You cannot compare Mormonism with Catholicism.
Isn’t that what the Catholic church did, when your leaders determined whether to recognize our baptisms?

We are based on Jesus Christ, God, not Joseph Smith.
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Kathleen:
A former Mormon affirmed this link as quite comprehensive.
What would you think if I said "a former Catholic affirmed this link as quite comprehensive? Would you even click the link? Would you
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Kathleen:
I pray for the Mormon people very day that the veil will be lifted and that they come to the truth.
Thank you, Kathleen, I appreciate that. Amen. Pray for me by name, if you would be so kind. Peter is my actual Christian name. And Christian is literally my middle name. Quite serious. Come to Vegas and I’ll show my my drivers’ license. 🙂
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Kathleen:
Man was created with free will. The Church never condemned the unborn or infants or innocent to hell.
I’m glad to hear it. Please realize that I didn’t learn those things from mormon anti-Catholics. Individual Catholics told me the stuff about infants (there are ignorant mormons as well so I don’t impute that to your church!). And it was Calvinists who told me that Catholics used to agree with their (IMO abominable) doctrine against Free Will before you became what they call “semi-Pelagians.” Please spread the word to any LDS person who has been taught incorrectly about your beliefs.

God bless you and thanks again.
 
Your ‘point’ seems to be to claim Mormons are more Christian than Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, or the Alberginsians. But again none of this changes the fact that the Catholic Church has determined the Mormon belief about the trinity falls outside of Christianity.
Has it? I don’t see such a proclamation from the Catholic church. What I see is a polite and generous statement explaining why your church rejects our baptism, and a handful of gung-ho folks running off the reservation, gloating about this proclamation and deriving these insulting claims that we aren’t Christian. Those aren’t your church’s words, Steven168.
 
The Council of Nicea essentially put Arianism and all else to caput.

so there can’t be any other such baptisms.

Mormonism does not accept Catholic/Christian baptism.

People have witnessed they were rushed into Mormonism and to baptism, only to find out later the teachings changed…being loving…not being too hard on them until they are members. Not right, not ethical.

In Catholic Rite of Christian Initiation and before, people are taught the full teachings of the faith.

The other point in our history, the missionaries of old times baptized indigenous people who continued to practice paganism on the side. And these practices gave scandal to excess of devotion or Catholic faith in action. So the Church works very hard to ensure that people get adequate instruction and time to really reflect on whether or not to profess and initiate as Catholic.
 
There was a former Catholic now Mormon who kept using a catechism quote over and over to show the Catholic teachers of old times believe what the Mormons believe.

People over and over and over kept showing him he was not understanding and mis using the Catholic teachings. It did no good. And showed the disconnect and misuse of Catholic teachings by Mormons…

So…

Again, I would get a universal catechism. And start from page one to get the context to page two, and so on…

We look at Scripture from the whole of its context, every single phrase of Scripture connected to the other. The greatest help in understanding Scripture is to have an indepth study of the Mass.

There is a great document from Vatican II on the documents of the Sacred Liturgy that I cordially invite you and all Mormons to read.

Another is Tom Nash’s book, ‘The Biblical Roots of the Mass’…and here there is indepth Scriptural references that explain our priesthood and its justification.

Priests can disagree with the Pope, their bishop…and be in good standing.
 
We don’t. We confess Joseph Smith’s errors freely. We follow only what God established through him.

I don’t. We never did. What the Book of Mormon specifies as abomination are:
  1. The abominable belief that there is no free will, and that God has predestined some people for heaven, and others for damnation.
  2. The belief that unbaptized children go to hell.
Both of these views were common among the Christian sects in New York when Joseph Smith established the church.

At this time, the Catholic church (and most Christian sects) have rejected both of those abominable views.
You state that the Catholic Church has “rejected” both of those views as if it were a new thing that was the result of a change in Catholic doctrine. It was not a change at all. The Church has always believed in man’s free will to choose his own path. That has never changed. In regards to unbaptized children/babies going to hell, that was a clarification of beliefs that had not been previously explained. In fact, when I was young (50s/60s) it was believed that the unbaptized children/babies went to ‘Limbo’, which is believed to be a place that’s rather ‘neutral’ territory (not Heaven/not hell), but with no possibility of ever being with God. Those who went to Limbo would be happy, there, but they could never enjoy the fullness of the Beatific Vision (of Almighty God) that is reserved only for the faithful believers in Jesus Christ.

You may think that what you believe about Joseph Smith’s ‘revelations’ are true, but they are still so far out of the realm of any other Christian belief that they are seen by the Catholic Church as being on the same level as paganism. That’s just the facts. Joseph Smith’s intention (IMO his own/your opinion ‘from god’) was to create a religion that completely opposed all of Christianity (because the ones that he went to about it summarily dismissed his claims of having a vision as being demonic in origin), so it should come as no surprise to you when your Mormon beliefs are declared to be non-Christian by the very churches that he openly opposed. Most Christians agree that Joseph Smith never had any true visions, and decided to make his own church because he couldn’t find any that would believe him, or follow his ideas about God.
 
Your ‘point’ seems to be to claim Mormons are more Christian than Arian heretics, the Gnostic heretics, the Marcionites, Ebionites, or the Alberginsians. But again none of this changes the fact that the Catholic Church has determined the Mormon belief about the trinity falls outside of Christianity.
Yes
Those aren’t your church’s words
My Church’s words:
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:
There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity.
 
In regards to unbaptized children/babies going to hell, that was a clarification of beliefs that had not been previously explained. In fact, when I was young (50s/60s) it was believed that the unbaptized children/babies went to ‘Limbo’, which is believed to be a place that’s rather ‘neutral’ territory (not Heaven/not hell), but with no possibility of ever being with God. Those who went to Limbo would be happy, there, but they could never enjoy the fullness of the Beatific Vision (of Almighty God) that is reserved only for the faithful believers in Jesus Christ.
This was exactly how the Baltimore Catechism explained it at least 100 years ago.
 
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