LDS: Alpha and Omega, the nature of God.

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I have to wonder though, if Cowboy Pete knows any more about St. Athanasius’ or his teachings than just the one-sentence quote that has been lifted out of context.
Well, Mormons are the champions of lifting quotes out of context. If you want a real “out-of-context-fest”, get hold of an LDS Missionary Edition of the KJV Bible (I got mine just before my mission) and look at the “Ready References” section in the middle. It has all the way-out-of-context bible interpretations, including the “two-sticks” passage from Jeremiah. When I read it now I just shake my head and chuckle at how gullible I was in my 20s.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
Is that all you think your theology is good for – for insulting people to make yourself feel better than them?

If I’ve misunderstood St. Anasthasius, then why has no one corrected me?

Please show me the difference between what I’ve said, and what St. Anasthasius said?

If I do, it won’t be thanks to your behavior here, or Rebecca’s.
That’s right. When you can’t argue with the message, attack the messenger. You Mormons never disappoint. 🙂
 
If I do, it won’t be thanks to your behavior here, or Rebecca’s.
Oh shoot, I thought I was the answer to your prayers.

I won’t coddle your errors, if that is what you’re hoping for. A straight shootin’ Cowboy should be glad for that.
 
If I’ve misunderstood St. Anasthasius, then why has no one corrected me?
There was a recent thread, with another Mormon claiming the same thing as you have going. Trying to explain to him that St. Athanasius wasn’t a Mormon talking about Mormon belief was like this…

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

I just don’t think anyone here is up for another round of that.

:takeoff:
 
Hello Cowboy Pete - When Joseph Smith declared that what everyone had understood about God was incorrect and that he was going to unveil the truth, it is then up to the LDS to explain his teachings about God.
If we were the Church of Joseph Smith, that would be true.

As I see it, like Moses before him (remember the water from the rock?), Joseph Smith got a bit too big for his britches towards the end of his life.

Joseph Smith said once that if he were to lead the people astray, that God would take him out of his place.

It’s possible that God did exactly that. As God did with Moses before him, after the rock incident.

To the extent that Joseph Smith’s teachings lead us to Christ, we follow them. To the extent that they don’t, we don’t.
Wouldn’t divine parents be plural?
Yes.
Isn’t that more than one God?
Nope. See John 17.
The following is an article from the Ensign (I have posted this before).
You think any church magazine to be scripture?
Few things are more crucial to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21) than the doctrines Joseph Smith taught. He spoke definitively and clearly on each of them, though his knowledge grew progressively. At times it came in leaps and bounds, as when he and Sidney Rigdon saw the Lord and the degrees of glory (see D&C 76); at other times, it came “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little” (2 Ne. 28:30).
So far, so good.
The** doctrines **Joseph Smith taught do several things. They clarify scripture; they restore knowledge that had been revealed ages ago but had become lost or corrupted; they provide new knowledge; and they organize his many insights into a broad vision of eternity.
Not canonical, but sounds right.
Though most people who believe the Bible accept the idea of a Godhead composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith revealed an understanding of the Godhead that differed from the views found in the creeds of his day. The main Christian sects of the nineteenth century taught of “one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons: nor dividing the Substance” and of “one only living and true God, … a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible.” 4 Although other churches and individuals held that the Father and the Son are separate entities, 5 Joseph Smith uniquely taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct personages, with the Father and the Son having bodies of “flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,” and with the Holy Ghost being a “personage of Spirit.” (D&C 130:22.) 6
Yep, that’s official doctrine.

[blabla blah joseph smith supposedly said this or that etc. etc.]

Oh, hello, actual scripture and official proclamation:
10 Through the Prophet, we learn that we “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” and that Christ is the Firstborn. (D&C 76:24; see D&C 93:21–22; Heb. 12:7–9.) As God’s children, we may become gods ourselves through Christ’s atonement and the plan of salvation, being joint heirs of Christ of “all that [the] Father hath.” (D&C 84:38; see also Rom. 8:17; D&C 76:58–60; D&C 132:19–21.) Along with these concepts is the concept of divine parents, including an exalted Mother who stands beside God the Father.
That’s all correct. You realize Heb = the book of Hebrews, from the Bible, right?
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rebecca:
Oh shoot, I thought I was the answer to your prayers.
Don’t get fresh, dear; I’m married, and we don’t do that anymore. 😃
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Paul:
including the “two-sticks” passage from Jeremiah
It definitely would be out of context if he pulled Ezekiel 33 out of the book of Jeremiah, Paul. :eek:😛
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Rebecca:
I won’t coddle your errors, if that is what you’re hoping for.
If you put the useful information at the top of the post, I promise to read all the insults that follow. Deal? Or is providing accurate information considered “coddling” in your neck of the desert?
 
Don’t get fresh, dear; I’m married, and we don’t do that anymore. 😃
I was talking about your prayers for Bible links, not your Mormon polygamous fantasies, which I’m not interested in in the slightest. I’m married, monogamous, Catholic…

And yes, leaving out the insults about Mormonism and its followers is coddling, in my book. But generally, the moderators encourage me to coddle more often than not. They call it “being charitable”. :eek:
 
[snipping your fantasies about my fantasies :rolleyes:]

And yes, leaving out the insults about Mormonism and its followers is coddling, in my book. But generally, the moderators encourage me to coddle more often than not. They call it “being charitable”. :eek:
Yes, I was wondering why your behavior was more restrained on this blog than on the mormon blogs that you can’t keep away from … 😃 Funny that you’re the one who sought me out here.
 
If we were the Church of Joseph Smith, that would be true.

As I see it, like Moses before him (remember the water from the rock?), Joseph Smith got a bit too big for his britches towards the end of his life.

Joseph Smith said once that if he were to lead the people astray, that God would take him out of his place.

It’s possible that God did exactly that. As God did with Moses before him, after the rock incident.

To the extent that Joseph Smith’s teachings lead us to Christ, we follow them. To the extent that they don’t, we don’t.
I am unable to post the link - it is not working - but I strongly suggest that you read the article in the Ensign magazine. It is called The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation. (it came up when I googled the title plus Ensign).

It reads:
“Although the Prophet Joseph Smith’s mortal ministry was relatively brief - little more than fifteen years - his accomplishments and influence are eternal. Not only did he restore both the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ, as directed by the Lord, he also introduced, through the revelations he received and through his teachings, most of the major doctrines, practices, and ordinances that characterize the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”
See John 17.
I don’t see the connection.
You think any church magazine to be scripture?
If an LDS Church-owned magazine prints an article on LDS doctrine written by LDS, I would take notice.
The magazine exists for the purpose of educating LDS on their beliefs, does it not?
[blabla blah joseph smith supposedly said this or that etc. etc.]
The article clearly states that these teachings of JS are major doctrines.
I am not sure how one can disagree with their own church’s doctrine and/or prophet and yet still be a member?
 
If an LDS Church-owned magazine prints an article on LDS doctrine written by LDS, I would take notice.
Notice, yes. Care? Not necessarily.
The magazine exists for the purpose of educating LDS on their beliefs, does it not?
It often does that. It was actually an ensign article that informed me that “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” contained a load of sloppily-sourced hearsay, misleadingly rewritten into first person. In other words, if someone writes in their journal, “X told me that Joseph Smith said Y,” the Teachings text says “I told the brethren Y.” :rolleyes:
 
I love how the topic evolves to something other than the topic in these threads.

I’ll take a crack at this one and simply say God always was, is, and will be & if that’s the case, it’s unlikely God had parents. Can you imagine prayers? Heavenly father: & grandparents & aunt sue… No. LOL!!!
If we’re fishing for a quasai-intellectual thing to discuss or maybe ask about God, then try asking how it’s possible for God to be a divine omnipotent force for good when he’s a jealous God? I mean, jealousy is a fairly petty human emotion for a deity…

Has anyone thought about this at all in their light Old Testament reading? LOL!
Maybe the idea that we’re pro-life, which is AWESOME & we should be pro-life, but in the Old Testament, as part of the plagues, the 1st borns of each family was put to death.
Hmm. Not very nice coming from a force for good to destroy first borns. (I happen to be the 1st born in my family, so I kinda find that disturbing)

These are questions I ask myself all the time. I’m not an atheist, I’m very much catholic, but I’m also human and the mind asks questions, the likes of which can isolate him from friends if spoken aloud, LOL! 🤷

I’m just saying of all the things and mind wanderings and ramblings, the mum & dad of the almighty never really popped in my head, LOL!
 
I love how the topic evolves to something other than the topic in these threads.

I’m just saying of all the things and mind wanderings and ramblings, the mum & dad of the almighty never really popped in my head, LOL!
Thank you! I’m relieved to hear that I’m not the only one that thought that it was a funny, off-topic question.
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Rebecca:
There was a recent thread, with another Mormon claiming the same thing as you have going. Trying to explain to him that St. Athanasius wasn’t a Mormon talking about Mormon belief was like this…
That’s funny, because when I originally said that
As Man is, God once Was
referred to Jesus Christ, God the Son, taking on flesh and dwelling among us,

a pack of ExMoCats started screeching that mormons didn’t believe that, and that I was the first mormon to ever say such a thing.

Now you’re conceding that it is an LDS belief, and that another mormon said the same thing, but you’re denying that’s what Anasthasius meant too?

Or are you pretending that I said that Anasthasius supports the King Follet theory? 😃
 
Hi CowboyPete, Athanasius believed in both theosis and the trinitarian dogma later outlined in the Nicene Creed (if fact, he was one of its defenders contra Arius during the debates). Athanasius’ statement that “God became man so that we might become god” must be understood in that context. At no time did Athanasius ever propose that we could ever literally become just like God, who is the ground of being, First Cause, Prime Mover, a single divine essence, “being of one substance with the” Son. How could we become exactly just like God when God is uncreated, a single immaterial divine substance with Three Persons? The phrase “like God” means something completely different between the LDS and Catholic (Athanasian) concepts of theosis. That’s why we Catholics chuckle when Mormons use Athanasius to defend their ideas about man becoming god. Apparently, Mormons who do this don’t realize that Athanasius was a complete dogmatic trinitarian through and through, in every one of his writings that survive to this day.
 
I gave up on King Follet long before I gave up on Mormonism. I initiated a thread about King Follet which shows that even the LDS leaders had trouble with it. It only survived through the intervention of B.H. Roberts and several of the intellectuals in early 20th century Mormonism like Talmadge, Widtsoe, etc. It seems to me to be popular theology much in the same way that limbo was popular among Catholics when it really wasn’t an official teaching of the Catholic Church. And just as we have downplayed limbo it wouldn’t surprise me if in the future the LDS downplay King Follet. And I don’t think we can criticize them anymore for doing that than we can be criticized for downplaying limbo.

This article by Harold B. Lee has some good advice for LDS when it comes to doctrine:

ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=talk_usingscript.htm

A quote from the article:
All that we teach in this church ought to be couched in the scriptures. It ought to be found in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures. If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth.
So unless we are willing to own Augustine’s doctrine that little children will go to hell or Aquinas’ modification which places them in limbo, I would hesitate to force the LDS to own King Follet.
 
I gave up on King Follet long before I gave up on Mormonism. I initiated a thread about King Follet which shows that even the LDS leaders had trouble with it. It only survived through the intervention of B.H. Roberts and several of the intellectuals in early 20th century Mormonism like Talmadge, Widtsoe, etc. It seems to me to be popular theology much in the same way that limbo was popular among Catholics when it really wasn’t an official teaching of the Catholic Church. And just as we have downplayed limbo it wouldn’t surprise me if in the future the LDS downplay King Follet. And I don’t think we can criticize them anymore for doing that than we can be criticized for downplaying limbo.

This article by Harold B. Lee has some good advice for LDS when it comes to doctrine:

ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=talk_usingscript.htm

A quote from the article:

So unless we are willing to own Augustine’s doctrine that little children will go to hell or Aquinas’ modification which places them in limbo, I would hesitate to force the LDS to own King Follet.
I agree. It can be very frustrating to someone like me who grew up LDS and left at the ripe old age of 45 to hear Mormons say that certain ‘doctrines’ I once believed and taught on my mission as absolutely true (along with every missionary, family member, fellow church member, and church leader in my experience as a Mormon) are now considered to be only speculation, opinion, or wacky theorizing. I’ve used the :banghead: symbol many times in my day expressing this frustration. But this change is a good thing. Year by year, Mormonism gets closer to the fullness of Catholic truth. I wonder how much longer it will take until the idea that God is an enfleshed, glorified man is jettisoned? Even without King Follett’s implication that it’s turtles (gods) all the way down, the current Mormon doctrine that God is a man in form (with arms, legs, and presumably a robe of some sort), and resides within the material universe, still introduces some significant metaphysical problems that Mormons, to my knowledge, have never addressed at all. Aristotle and Aquinas, anyone?
 
I agree. It can be very frustrating to someone like me who grew up LDS and left at the ripe old age of 45 to hear Mormons say that certain ‘doctrines’ I once believed and taught on my mission as absolutely true (along with every missionary, family member, fellow church member, and church leader in my experience as a Mormon) are now considered to be only speculation, opinion, or wacky theorizing. I’ve used the :banghead: symbol many times in my day expressing this frustration. But this change is a good thing. Year by year, Mormonism gets closer to the fullness of Catholic truth. I wonder how much longer it will take until the idea that God is an enfleshed, glorified man is jettisoned? Even without King Follett’s implication that it’s turtles (gods) all the way down, the current Mormon doctrine that God is a man in form (with arms, legs, and presumably a robe of some sort), and resides within the material universe, still introduces some significant metaphysical problems that Mormons, to my knowledge, have never addressed at all. Aristotle and Aquinas, anyone?
Just one word:

Kolob
 
Just one word:

Kolob
I’ll let the Mormons defend that one, but they don’t claim to know enough about it for it to have any significance in their theology. If I were them I would just say that Jesus must have gone somewhere after he was resurrected and Kolob is as good a name for it as any other name.
 
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