LDS and 144,000

[tkdnick]

I recently heard on Catholic radio that there is a “secret” belief in the LDS church that only 144,000 people can enter into the highest level of heaven and become gods themselves. AND that those 144,000 will all be in polygamous marriages. That they are secretly sealed to another wife in a special ceremony in the temple. I have heard that this is almost exclusively reserved for members of the 12 apostles and the quorum of the 70 (the large one). Anyone else heard of this? Can anyone point me to where I can find this?

 

[boppysbud]

tkdnick:

I recently heard on Catholic radio that there is a “secret” belief in the LDS church that only 144,000 people can enter into the highest level of heaven and become gods themselves. AND that those 144,000 will all be in polygamous marriages. That they are secretly sealed to another wife in a special ceremony in the temple. I have heard that this is almost exclusively reserved for members of the 12 apostles and the quorum of the 70 (the large one). Anyone else heard of this? Can anyone point me to where I can find this?

TD, your source is confusing Mormon belief with Jehovahs Witness belief.

The JWs beleive that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. The rest of JWs will live forever on a a “renewed earth”, everyone else will not go the Hell, but will be destroyed by God.

Mormons OTOH believe that only faithfull “worthy” Mormons who have been married in the temple will enter the *Celestial Kingdom *and become “gods” themselves. Other unmarried mormonsm less worthy mormons will enter the *Telestial Kingdom. *Others, the vast majority of humanity will be relegated to the *Terrestrial Kingdom. *Almost no-one will go to Hell in Mormonism.

 

[tkdnick]

boppysbud:

TD, your source is confusing Mormon belief with Jehovahs Witness belief.

The JWs beleive that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. The rest of JWs will live forever on a a “renewed earth”, everyone else will not go the Hell, but will be destroyed by God.

Mormons OTOH believe that only faithfull “worthy” Mormons who have been married in the temple will enter the *Celestial Kingdom *and become “gods” themselves. Other unmarried mormonsm less worthy mormons will enter the *Telestial Kingdom. *Others, the vast majority of humanity will be relegated to the *Terrestrial Kingdom. *Almost no-one will go to Hell in Mormonism.

That’s what I thought at first too. Then I heard who the guy is. He’s a former LDS member, who then became Catholic and is now a deacon, so I was thinking maybe he might have his facts right. Don’t know though. If no one else knows anything about this belief, then maybe he was wrong…

 

[Lisa_N]

boppysbud:

TD, your source is confusing Mormon belief with Jehovahs Witness belief.

The JWs beleive that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. The rest of JWs will live forever on a a “renewed earth”, everyone else will not go the Hell, but will be destroyed by God.

Mormons OTOH believe that only faithfull “worthy” Mormons who have been married in the temple will enter the *Celestial Kingdom *and become “gods” themselves. Other unmarried mormonsm less worthy mormons will enter the *Telestial Kingdom. *Others, the vast majority of humanity will be relegated to the *Terrestrial Kingdom. *Almost no-one will go to Hell in Mormonism.

This is my understanding based on my two aunts who converted to LDS. My aunt was very busily “sealing” her ancestors “for time and eternity” and my mom used to wonder if some of them would rather NOT be sealed to their earthly spouses.

Lisa N

 

[dhgray]

Rev 14:1 -5

1 Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing water or a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

3 They were singing (what seemed to be) a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth.

4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.

5 On their lips no deceit has been found; they are unblemished.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

dhgray:

Rev 14:1 -5
. . .

3 They were singing (what seemed to be) a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth.

4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.
. . . .

I have never heard what the JWs do with verse 4. They are strong for 144,000, but do they believe that they must be virgins?

 

[jschwehm]

No, they do not believe the 144,000 must be virgins. In fact, most of the JWs who claim to be of the 144,000 are married and have kids.

This is part of the problem with sola scriptura. The JWs take the number literally but everything else is symbolic. The virgin part means to the JW that they are spiritually chaste and not unevenly yoked with the world.

Jeff S.

 

[dhgray]

Virgins: metaphorically, because they never indulged in any idolatrous practices, which are considered in the Old Testament to be adultery and fornication (Rev 2:14-15, 20-22; 17:1-6; cf Ezekiel 16:1-58; 23:1-49).

Catholic note: The parallel passages (Rev 7:3; 22:4) indicate that the 144,000 whose foreheads are sealed represent all Christian people.

 

[PaulDupre]

It’s not really that big a secret. It refers to a ceremony associated with the process of having your calling and election made sure - that is, becoming a god.(see D&C section 131:5 and section 132)

Background
Mormon men normally expect - or at least hope - that this will happen in the next life. But it is also possible that you can have your calling and election made sure during this lifetime. There are several people named in the D&C who are said to have had their calling and election made sure. Joseph Smith was the first (no surprise there) in D&C 132:49.

The ceremony connected with it is only discussed within the walls of the temple and usually only with priesthood holders (men) - and then rarely, which is why so many LDS have never heard of it. It was explained to me on two different occasions.

The first was after I took out my endownment (1st visit to the temple - in Provo Utah) prior to serving my mission. The temple president took 8 of us male missionaries into a little room and explained this and several other temple-specific things to us. His point was that if we were not perfectly obedient as missionaries, we could not have our calling and election made sure. He also said that he had never personally witnessed this ceremony, but his predecessor had witnessed it in the Salt Lake Temple.

The second was when I was married in the temple. One of the temple president’s counselors married us. Afterwards, in the celestial room, he invited me to ask him questions, so I asked him about it. He said pretty much what the first president had said:

The ceremony
In Mormonism, this occurs on earth when the prophet proclaims that your obedience to Mormon authority has been perfect.

You are taken to the temple and a special annointing is performed by the prophet and one or more apostles. During this annointing, you are declared to be a living god, and your exaltation (godhood) is assured, provided you don’t commit murder before you die (see D&C 132:19).

After this annointing, you are sealed to several women who will be plural wives to you in the future celestial kingdom.

I know that many LDS men know about this ceremony but, like all other temple-specific things, they are not allowed to discuss it and will feign ignorance. Women will not have heard of it (until now?).
Some have probably heard about it in the temple if they went on missions, but have forgotten over time. It is not routinely brought up, even in the temple.

Elder (later President) Ezra Taft Benson visited and addressed the Taiwan Taipei mission in 1978 when I was there. As part of his remarks, which I would like to recount to you sometime, he said that he had been priviledged to be present in the Salt Lake Temple when President David O. McKay had his calling and election made sure. So I know of at least one person in modern times who has acheived godhood in this life.

Hope this helps,
Paul

 

[tkdnick]

Double thanks! Saw this in the other thread too!

 

[Katholikos]

PaulDupre:

Elder (later President) Ezra Taft Benson visited and addressed the Taiwan Taipei mission in 1978 when I was there.

You know, of course, that Benson’s grandson, Steve Benson, political cartoonist extraordinare who won a Pulitzer, left the Mormon Church and publicly denounced its teachings. It was a huge story in Arizona, where he lives and publishes his syndicated cartoons.

Some other readers may not know this (and now they do!).

JMJ Jay

 

[PaulDupre]

Katholikos:

You know, of course, that Benson’s grandson, Steve Benson, political cartoonist extraordinare who won a Pulitzer, left the Mormon Church and publicly denounced its teachings. It was a huge story in Arizona, where he lives and publishes his syndicated cartoons.

Some other readers may not know this (and now they do!).

JMJ Jay

Yes, I heard that. Ezra Taft Benson was very unpopular in the LDS Church. He seemed to embody everything that was nasty and embarrasing about Mormonism - especially its pervasive and virulent racism.

When Benson came to address the Taiwan Taipei mission when I was there, he expressed concern and disgust that some missionaries had returned to Taiwan, after they were released from service, to marry Chinese girls that they had met on their missions. He said

“Any white man who marries a Chinese girl deserves what he gets. Heed the counsel of the oracles of God! Go home and marry a white girl, so that your parents will have grand-children they can be proud of.” - Missionary Journal of Paul Dupre September 1977

Just prior to the death of Spencer W. Kimball, many Mormons threatened that if Benson became the next prophet, they would leave the church. When he indeed became the next prophet, only a very few made good on their threats.
God bless you,
Paul

 

[tyanjujyau]

Yes, I remember that speech too. I was also there in Taiwan as a missionary at the same time, and am now so thankful to have found the Catholic faith. I was there 1976-1978, and lived for a time with Paul, Meach, and Toronto in the same Sung Shan apt. I sure love the Catholic faith now, watch EWTN almost exclusively, and am so thankful to have finally “found it”, or as the locals used to say, “Wo Jau Dau le”. The Chinese people are great. I married a beautiful person from Singapore, of Chinese culture and ancestry, and am thankful for her, and her family; enjoyed trying to adapt to all the new cultural (not racial) ways. Have two great kids, and I am very proud of them. Unfortunately, though, I lacked what it took to keep the marriage together. This shouldn’t be used in justifying E.T. Benson’s comments on race as correct. Many a Richie Cunningham has returned, married the girl next door, only to find his own share of home grown misery. Perhaps also “deserving what he got”. The Catholic faith seems the best remedy for raising decent people, for marriage, or otherwise. Great finding you online, Paul! Your old friend,“Bai” Barrett. On track to be baptised next Easter.