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TexanKnight
Guest
Parker, is it safe to presume that your lack of providing the references I called for mean that no references exist? That you have no evidence for the claims you made?
Be Blessed
Be Blessed
- Status
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ParkerD
Guest
TexanKnight,
Actually, there are no existing legal documents or court records that show there was a trial or a conviction in regards to the “glass looker” accusation.
Also, here is the language of the New York law that seems to have been the basis for the accusation:
“all persons who not having wherewith to maintain themselves, live idle without employment, and also all persons who go about from door to door, or place themselves in the streets, highways or passages, to beg in the cities or towns where they respectively dwell, and all jugglers, and all persons pretending to have skill in physiognomy, palmistry, or like crafty science, or pretending to tell fortunes, or to discover where lost goods may be found; … shall be deemed and adjudged disorderly persons.”
I read that law and say to myself, “Oh, great–who gets to decide on such cases? A judge acting alone?”
The use of the words “pretending” and “crafty” create an emotion-based law and leave the judgment as an emotion-based judgment.
If you will present the actual historical references that there was a fair trial by jury, that the defendant was given the right of representation, that there were minutes kept of the trial showing the fairness of the judge in the proceedings, and whether the judge made a ruling and a conviction, then I will consider your sources and see whether they seem valid and historically accurate. (To my knowledge, there are no such sources, but if you have them, then I’ll consider your sources.)
Also, it would be historically important to consider whether that same law with that same language is on the books today in the state of New York as a current law–I certainly hope not.
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TexanKnight
Guest
Actually, there IS evidence he was convicted. But that was not my question. It would appear that not only did you dodge my question, you have still refuse to provide references to that which you claimed. I will there take that to mean you have no proof to what you claimed.
Thank you.
Be Blessed.
P
ParkerD
Guest
TexanKnight,
So if you have it or know where it is, then provide the sources or post the evidence–OK by me. That is not dodging your question, it is going to the root accusation you made.
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TexanKnight
Guest
Humbly, no sir. I asked you three posts ago to provide certain references for things you claimed. Now, several posts later, you have made several posts, but neglected, or refused, or are unable to cite the references I requested.
Now, I again, humbly, ask you to provide the references I asked for long before you requested one from me.
In His Grip
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Crdl2Grv
Guest
Quick question: is it possible the angel Moroni took those court records up to Heaven, along with the golden plates, Jimmy Hoffa’s body and the second shooter on the grassy knoll?
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campeador
Guest
Parker, please… You know very well that there is evidence showing Joseph Smith convicted.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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icamay
Guest
I must disagree here. I was raised very anti-Catholic, and felt that I as very well-educated on the faults of the Catholic church. My first experience with the real presence of God happened in my adult years, when I very reluctantly attended the local Catholic Ash Wednesday mass. It was not my first Ash Wednesday service, just the first in the RCC, and when the ashes touched my forehead, I felt God through me like a lightening bolt. In all honesty, it was the first time a priest ever came within my personal space. Following that was my testimony to enter the Church, much to the shock of every person in my life. That was only the first of a long series of events in which God became very present to me and encouraged me along this journey.
So there is my testimony. I’m not going to dare say that someone who feels that they had a testimony to join the LDS didn’t have a true testimony; likewise, please do not assume that LDS members are the only who have had revelations of faith.
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Tony888
Guest
Thanks for sharing your story! I’ve no doubt the Holy Spirit touched you that day.
I’d say the LDS have ‘the habit’ of sharing their testimony, while Catholics I’ve known keep it inside. I wish more Catholics shared their testimony, I think it a good habit.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Like Joseph Smith. who thought “what will the world think?” when he denied publicly that the LDS were practicing polygamy when all the time they were.
Or like Joseph Smith who thought “what will my wife think?” when he lied to his wife and to the press saying that the LDS believed that a man should have one wife and a woman should have one husband while the LDS leadership were practicing both polygamy and polyandry.
So you are saying that Joseph Smith was not spiritually attuned and was full of personal sins (and that he was also a pathetic coward)?
I agree with you on those counts!
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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ParkerD
Guest
Campeador,
That document doesn’t show a conviction. It shows that there was a case brought to the judge, and that he assessed fees for examining the case.
I am familiar enough with court records from the early United States, having done genealogical research where those are looked at to try and find clues about relationships about people, that I can look at that document and understand what it shows. It does not show that there was a trial, or whether the defendant was found innocent or guilty–it shows that the judge spent time on the case and wanted payment for his time and thus his fee was written down for examining the case.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
ParkerD
There are & have been documents found (and some suppressed by LDS)- I notice pass it off as “no existing documents”.
See Frazer’s Magazine, London 1873 “STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH…” a description of Smith’s trial.
"REVEREND WESLEY P. WALTERS, being first duly sworn upon his oath, deposes and states:
On Saturday, May 22, 1971, while in Norwich, New Your, I,… was shown by the County Historian, Mrs. Mae Smith, where Chenago County kept their dead storage, which was in a back, poorly-lit room in the the basement of County jail…
On July, 28, 1971, I was able to return to Norwich and in the late afternoon I went back to the County jail accompanied by Mr. Fred Poffarl…Mr. Poffarl discovered two cardboard boxes in the darkest area of the room, containing more bundles of bills, all mixed up as to date, and some badly watersoaked and mildewed… It was in Mr. Poffarl’s box that the 1826 bills were soon found… When I opened the 1826 bundle and got part way through the pile of Bainbridge bills, all of which were very damp and mildewed, I came upon, first, the J.P. bill of Albert Neeley and then upon the Constable’s bill of Philip M. DeZeng. On Mr. Neely’s bill was the item of the triall of “Joseph Smith The Glass Looker”… on the bill of Mr. DeZeng were the charges for arresting and keeping Joseph Smith, notifying two justices, subpoenaing 12 witnesses, as well as a mittimus charge for 10 miles travel “to take him,” with no specification as to where he was taken on the Mittimus…
In my opinion, the bills are authentic, of the same paper quality and ink quality as the other 1826 and 1830 bills and appeared to me to have remained tied up and untouched since the day they were bound up and placed away in storage by the Board of Supervisors of Chenango County, New York…(Affidavit by Wesley P. Walters, dated Oct. 28, 1971)."
Both say “Glass Looker” as to what Smith was charged with
Both have a fee of “$2.68”!
Both say the trial date of “March 20, 1826”
Consider the ramifications; both documents exist and would stand up in court… despite Hugh Nibley’s attempts to discredit the Bainbridge Court Trial document but says in his book “The Myth Makers” if the court document would be proved authentic, “it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith.”
Thanks, Campeador
There are & have been documents found (and some suppressed by LDS)- I notice pass it off as “no existing documents”.
See Frazer’s Magazine, London 1873 “STATE OF NEW YORK v. JOSEPH SMITH…” a description of Smith’s trial.
Code:
Wesley Walters found the original of the bill (previously posted) by Justice Albert Neely for the trial for Smith & $2.68 fee. Walters swore an oath upon deposition as to his findings::blush:On Saturday, May 22, 1971, while in Norwich, New Your, I,… was shown by the County Historian, Mrs. Mae Smith, where Chenago County kept their dead storage, which was in a back, poorly-lit room in the the basement of County jail…
On July, 28, 1971, I was able to return to Norwich and in the late afternoon I went back to the County jail accompanied by Mr. Fred Poffarl…Mr. Poffarl discovered two cardboard boxes in the darkest area of the room, containing more bundles of bills, all mixed up as to date, and some badly watersoaked and mildewed… It was in Mr. Poffarl’s box that the 1826 bills were soon found… When I opened the 1826 bundle and got part way through the pile of Bainbridge bills, all of which were very damp and mildewed, I came upon, first, the J.P. bill of Albert Neeley and then upon the Constable’s bill of Philip M. DeZeng. On Mr. Neely’s bill was the item of the triall of “Joseph Smith The Glass Looker”… on the bill of Mr. DeZeng were the charges for arresting and keeping Joseph Smith, notifying two justices, subpoenaing 12 witnesses, as well as a mittimus charge for 10 miles travel “to take him,” with no specification as to where he was taken on the Mittimus…
In my opinion, the bills are authentic, of the same paper quality and ink quality as the other 1826 and 1830 bills and appeared to me to have remained tied up and untouched since the day they were bound up and placed away in storage by the Board of Supervisors of Chenango County, New York…(Affidavit by Wesley P. Walters, dated Oct. 28, 1971)."
Code:
LDS asked Fawn Brodie to write the (ultimate) history of Joseph Smith. Her research was sterling, she won an award for the book and got kicked out by same "leaders" who asked her to do the book:blush: She printed the Court document for the Glass Looking Trial in her book "No Man Knows My History" evoking quite a response from the Brethren apparently.
Walter's discovery of J.P. Albert Neely's Bill for "Glass Looker" Joseph Smith in the basement of the Chenango County,New York Courthouse of $2.68 matches up with the Court Document of a fee of $2 .68.Both have a fee of “$2.68”!
Both say the trial date of “March 20, 1826”
Consider the ramifications; both documents exist and would stand up in court… despite Hugh Nibley’s attempts to discredit the Bainbridge Court Trial document but says in his book “The Myth Makers” if the court document would be proved authentic, “it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith.”
Thanks, Campeador
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Tony888
Guest
Keep Going!
:bigyikes:I always love a good conspiracy yarn
More than I love espionage stories!
When you are done, we can talk about the furits of our faith.
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blueadept
Guest
Good advise I always tell Catholics especially when dealing with LDS relatives…
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ParkerD
Guest
PepBandMom,
(My daughter gets to go with her junior high school symphonic band, to Chicago to play in front of a group of junior high school and high school band administrators and devotees and some of the composers of the pieces they will be playing, next week. It is one of the best junior high symphonic bands in at least the western United States, and perhaps the country. She enjoys playing percussion, particularly the chimes. We are very grateful for the dedicated teachers and administrators, and for the students and their parents with all the support and good discipline.)
Looking at what you presented, please note again that what is being described and what were looked at were the records pertaining to who got paid as the judge and as the constable.
Those payments involved (1) $2.68 paid to the judge because the case was on his docket. It has no bearing whatsoever as to what his verdict was. It means he had a case on his docket that meant he was due to receive his normal fee for even looking at the case, hearing it. It was for what was on the books as a “misdemeanor” charge, if it held up in court–but he got paid whether he would have presented a verdict of “innocent” or a verdict of “guilty as charged”. There is no evidence presented of a verdict in the case.
(2) “The Constable’s bill of Philip M. DeZeng” shows merely that a constable was involved in “arresting and keeping Joseph Smith, notifying two justices, subpoenaing 12 witnesses, as well as a mittimus charge for 10 miles travel ‘to take him,’”–all of which are actions that a constable is paid to do after a charge has been presented as needing to be acted upon. The constable doesn’t decide on the innocence or guilt of the accused–his job is to round up the defendant, round up the accusers and any witnesses, and it looks like he had to contact two judges–for which he submitted his normal bill for doing his job.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I find a common LDS reaction…that no matter the document…be it ancient Christian documents such as St. Justin the Martyr’s explaining the Mass in 155 AD that is reflected in parts, tone, and spirit of today’s Masses, is likewise ignored.
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bz5
Guest
They practiced polyandry? I’d never heard that, it’s surprises me.
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bz5
Guest
I think we have. Many people, including me, have said they know sweet Mormon families who are charitable and moral - that’s good fruit. But you seem to imply that there are not faithful Catholic families who are wholesome and strong, to which I say ‘nonsense,’ I know many of those too. I believe many posters have pointed out the fruits of Catholicism: the 2,000 year history of saints, evangelists, miracles, charitable works in all parts of the world. LDS do not have ‘the upper hand’ in good fruits. But as I’ve said before, every convert I know has a similar story: “my life was a mess, and these people are so nice to me.” Your pointing out the good fruits of the members you know make me think you, too, fall in this category.Keep Going!
I always love a good conspiracy yarn
More than I love espionage stories!
When you are done, we can talk about the furits of our faith.
B
bz5
Guest
And, again, how would Mormonism exist without the huge conspiracy theory of the apostasy? Where do we see Mormonism in the early church? Who, exactly, abandoned it? Which martyrs died defending it? When did it happen? If the CC suppressed it all, why not suppress all the other heresies from those early years that we do know about?Keep Going!
I always love a good conspiracy yarn
More than I love espionage stories!
When you are done, we can talk about the furits of our faith.
- Status