LDS and ancient record...

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KathleenGee said:
Telstar,

Will take your word for that…as I live on the West Coast…and we don’t know much…I have a friend from Chicago…and she shared with me alot about Chicago politics…and the need of being in a union or you get nothing…and who people really are.
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Kathleen,

You really don’t need to take my word for anything, just do some homework. Look up what his last few ‘actions’ as governor of MA were, and you’ll better understand my personal view of him. One in particular was a total shock to me (he had another choice to make, but obstinately refused), and it went against my whole reason for voting for him in the first place. I believed all the TV ads that showed him as a man of ‘faith’ with very strong ‘family values’. I also believed the opinion of his character and experience from a very well known ‘talking head’ that I used to listen to, daily. That’s why I’ve been kicking myself. I didn’t do my own homework. 😦

Sorry for the hijack… let’s just get back to the topic of the thread. 😉
 
The photograph shows Elizabeth Smart and the man who abducted her in “white robes” which I understand…
…Is part of the Mormon rubric for “sealing the record”.
 
You may be right, that Eve expected to become God, but that is not what the sentence structure means. Another example

Said to modern Eve
if you approve the 21st amendment, you will be as Men, receiving equal pay and equal rights. Here, clearly Eve does not become a man, she just receives attributes she did not have before
 
Get real.

After reading this, should I say you deserve to be a Mormon?
 
Pythons said:
Is this partly the reason the LDS Church seems to be so good at geneologies?
…Due to the theological import of ancient records as understood in the plates?

Also, I remember reading where the man who abducted Elizabeth Smart from her house prior to forced breeding…
…Had said somthing to the effect of ; ‘what I seal in record on earth is sealed in heaven’.
…He said something like this pior to sexually assulting the little girl.
…While his wife watched “the procedure”.

I’ve wondered about what impact “ancient records” ( that can’t be found ) would have on religious believers…
…It’s like a mechanism to maintain control in the ranks.
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Python, the pos that kidnapped Elizabth Smart had an LDS Mormon background, but he had gone off the rails. It happens, it isn’t hard to come to very damaging beliefs and actions that follow, if one is a Mormon. Brian Mitchell is just one in a string of many, the Lafferty brothers murdered their brother’s wife and daughter because they believed they were following orders of the “one mighty a strong”, which is, a prophecy in Mormonism regarding the last days.

Brian Mitchell took the Mormon temple rite, their doctrine of polygamy, and a heavy dose of narcissism, to an evil end. He was a pan handler on the streets of SLC, and I came across him one day. He was shouting about the end of the world, and making lewd comments about the women who walked by. I was one of those women, which is why I remember him. I have given and helped homeless many times, and no one ever gave me the “all overs” like this guy did.
 
Tony888 said:
And reading Catholics list off criminals, implying they are the product of the LDS Church is just gutter ball bigotry.
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Correlation is not causation. Actions correlate to belief, cause obviously is much more complex than saying Mormonism equals criminal behavior. People can discern a pattern.

And facts are not bigotry, they are facts. Rather than step in persecution mode, the wise person would seek the cause with an eye to make remediation.

Belief that God will and can instruct murder, as defended by Mormons here, can be correlated to those who act in the manner in which they believe. It has been stated here before, that such beliefs are dangerous. One only has to look at Mormon history to know, the peaceful veneer can fade.
 
Tony,

You deflected with your modern 21st century Eve, instead of looking at the original text of Scripture…in another words, you took it even farther out…so…considering the deflections, silence, omissions, using words with double meanings…may be the Mormon religion is truly where you belong.

I mean nothing more.
 
Tony888 said:
You may be right, that Eve expected to become God, but that is not what the sentence structure means. Another example

Said to modern Eve
if you approve the 21st amendment, you will be as Men, receiving equal pay and equal rights. Here, clearly Eve does not become a man, she just receives attributes she did not have before
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In your new example, even though she does not literally become a man, she will receive the same attributes (equal pay and equal rights) associated with being a man, thus becoming fully equal to him. Just like in Genesis, she is promised that she will receive the same attributes as God, thus becoming His equal. That’s the whole problem. No one will ever be equal to God, but that’s exactly what she was promised to become, by the serpent.

So, that is exactly what the sentence structure means. Let me try to break it down a little bit, and put it in a more logical order of modern language for you.
[5] For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
This is actually a compound sentence, as the colon ( : ) between two parts indicates, but it’s even more complicated than that. It’s almost like 3 sentences in one, and might be easier to understand it that way. The main subject is ‘you’ (Eve). Her two proposed actions are “shall eat” and “shall be”. Then, we must also consider the other part about God ‘knows’ (another verb), but that’s not the main point. In modern language this sentence might be written more like this: Because, God knows that as soon as you eat that fruit, your eyes will be opened (you will know and understand everything God is hiding from you) and you will become a God like He is, because you will know all about good and evil just like He does.
Remember, the previous line. “[4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.” In line 5 the serpent is explaining to her that she won’t die because she’ll be turned into a God by eating the fruit, so God won’t be able to kill her, and she’ll be able to do everything He does. He’s telling her that she’ll be just as powerful as God is… i.e. “equal to God”. He’s lying to her! The only thing she learned by eating the fruit was that there was evil in the world, and that the serpent was part of that evil. She also learned that because she and Adam disobeyed God, they both became part of that evil, too! That’s why they had to leave the garden. Nothing evil can remain in the Presence of God. They hid themselves from Him because of their guilt and shame, as soon as they realized that the serpent was lying to them, and that they had sinned against God.

There really is no other way to interpret any of it. 🤷
 
Adam and Eve deliberately disobeyed God in spite of the forewarned consequences.

Most of all they turned their back on God.
 
Telstar’s last post is a good example why it is anathema to change even one word to Scripture or to add to it as in the Book of Mormons…and also why it is important to read word for word, line for line, phrase for phrase to get the true objective intent of the matter.

You don’t focus in on one phrase or word and create a new meaning in it outside of its text. Didn’t you say you were once in the seminary? I mean higher education level.

When Jesus came at the fulfilled time, that also meant He was not going to fail. He IS the Word…you don’t add on to Jesus. No more prophets, visions, signs, wonders, miracles because Jesus died and rose from the dead.

If He was able to rise from the dead, He was also able to establish His church.
 
Tony888 said:
TK, I urge you to reread the bible.

The devil promised Eve her eyes would be opened and she would know Good and Evil.
Knowing good and evil was an attribute of God foreign to Adam and Eve.
The devil did not promise to make them diving beings
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Tony, first, I asked you not to respond to me ever since you performed the LDS-taught tactic of personal attacks and questioning my integrity.

Second, if you choose anyway to respond to me, please be kind enough to learn and read your Bible. It is the book gathering dust beside the Book of Mormon.

“And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. [5] For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.”

Or even the KJV that you use and that Joseph copied.

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Notice the “shall be as gods”.

It is the same things the LDS Church promises.

In other words, you promise people the same thing Satan promised Eve.

Be Blessed.
 
The Mormon and the Catholic interpretations of those verses are totally different. They fundamentally define both religions. The Mormon one puts sexuality at the forefront, and makes woman suffer for the sin of Eve, when Adam also had a choice.

The Catholic position is that when people think they are gods, and think that they have the capability of taking God’s role of judge, they are seriously deceived. Only God knows everything. All we can do is search the scriptures, the Traditions of Christianity, and seek Him for guidance. We are dependent on Him, our Creator. When we deny that, we are sinning-- the sin of pride.

This is a critical difference, and pivotal to the whole discussion. I am getting a better handle on it. Thank you. I never got that question answered in religion classes in high school.
 
Tony888 said:
Crld2grv
Thanks for sharing the CCC verses, they add context.
But they do not show Eve expected to become God.
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Actually, the graph I posted from the CCC doesn’t add any context to our discussion at all. It defines a very specific interpretation, one that Catholics believe is error-free and infallible. That’s not “context.”

The following would be an example of the CCC providing context for our discussion:

"HOW TO READ THE ACCOUNT OF THE FALL

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265 "

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

So, we can see that the Catholic church teaches - definitively and infallibly, according to Catholics - that Genesis uses “figurative language” to “affirm a primeval event.” For the purposes of our discussion, the former is more important than the latter.

Let’s go back to what I posted before:

"396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.“276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

You’re treating Satan’s promise of “knowledge of good and evil” as a specific gift that Eve was tempted by. But the CCC (and the Bible, I’d argue) is very clear that the phrase “the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is symbolic language that describes a whole host of different “gifts” that range from immortality to Divine knowledge.

Further, even if we were supposed to interpret the Bible literally, your point wouldn’t stand. As many people have pointed out, deconstructing the actual sentence that contains Satan’s temptation yields “you shall be as gods” at its core. No amount of your usual fingers-in-the-ears, LA-LA-LA-I-can’t-hear-you routine can change that.

Speaking of that routine, we’re all pretty clear why you’re doing it. And, honestly, if I were Mormon I’d do it, too. When the story of Creation isn’t clouded by spirit councils and pre-mortal worlds and competing “plans for salvation,” its message is crystal clear: Adam and Even fell victim to the temptation to become gods themselves. And it is that exact, same temptation that members of the LDS continue to chase to this day. .
 
American Indians don’t have Jewish DNA. In fact, many of the features described in the BOM have never been located. Mormons sometimes claim that God did this dirty trick to them to test their faith. I say God isn’t that mean and nasty, and claiming he is is pretty despicable.

Joseph Smith was constantly in trouble for dousing and treasure troving before he made up the story about the golden plates. This story telling about buried treasure was a long-time habit of his. There are civil records that testify to this. His parents worried that he’d ever find a way to make a living. They might as well not have worried. If you’re a good enough crook, you can do it, not that it’s right.

Joseph Smith “married” already married women and there is a ton of evidence for it. He was a ladies’ man from the get-go. In fact, the doctrine of plural marriage was a way for him to justify that.

Joseph Smith was a inducted into the Masonic Temple about a year before he started up the Mormon church, and many features of the temple rite in Mormonism are the same as the temple rite in the Masonic Lodge.

Items identified by Joseph Smith as hieroglyphics aren’t, according to specialists in the topic. Joseph Smith wouldn’t have known a hieroglyphic if one had bitten him on his well-exercised backside.

And finally, God doesn’t live on Kolob. In fact, there’s no such place as Kolob. And you can’t get your own planet and be a God. In fact, the mormon saying, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be” is just plain sacrilege.

Oh, and one more thing: God didn’t just organize matter. If you believe this, either you are the victim of an infinite regress or you believe matter is God. God created everything “ex nihilo,” from nothing.
 
Telstar said:
That particular part of the Apocalypse refers to the everlasting Gospel, and the ‘angel’ that brings it to the earth is the Catholic Church. She wrote it and has been preaching it from the very beginning, when Jesus still walked the earth. There is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it has already been preached for 2000 years. It will continue to be preached by Her, unabated, until Jesus returns. It has already spread to every corner of the world, so there is a strong possibility that it may actually be getting very close to the ‘last days’, or ‘the end of time’.
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I find your interpretation of these Bible verses interesting and a reasonable. However, most of it is based on opinion such as “the angel that brings it to the earth is the Catholic Church.”

When John received “The Revelation” he was one of the last living apostles. In Rev 14:6-7 he saw that an angel in heaven had the everlasting gospel to preach to those on earth shortly before Christ returns “for the hour of his judgement is come.” I was pointing out that this missionary effort had similar to timing to “the resitution of all things” which would occur shortly before “the presence of Lord” (see Acts 3:19-20)

The diciples asked Jesus: “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what will be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matt: 24:3)

Jesus told his disciples that many things would happen before he came but then he told them “be not troubled; for these all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.” (Matt 24:6-7)

He then told them exactly what we should look for to know that the end is near. “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” (Matt.24:14) Again, this seems to indicate that a large missionary effort will happen shorthly before Christ returns.
 
Revelations is speaking to a present time. Jesus reigns over the Kingdom of Heaven now. The spreading of the everlasting good news of Jesus Christ, who died, rose again, and will come again, is not something that will come it is something that is happening now, and has been happening since His death and Resurrection.

At the time Revelations was written, Christians were experiencing persecutions under the Roman empire (Babylon). Roman pagans, who are the persecutors, are those who are marked with the sign of the beast, and are those who are facing the judgement of Christ.

This is resistance writing, not having anything to do with a so-called “restoration”. Giving hope to those who are persecuted, facing death themselves and of people around them, and proclaiming Who that Hope is: Jesus Christ.

12
Here is what sustains the holy ones who keep God’s commandmentsh and their faith in Jesus.
13
I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” said the Spirit, “let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them.”

Those who die in the Lord are the holy martyrs of the early persecutions, of whom this writing is about, and particularly who it was written to…people still living, yet facing the same death.

Of course, it is more than relevant for all Christians of all ages.
 
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