LDS and becoming gods

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I will offer a few things.
First, LDS do not practice Baptism for the Dead because someone Paul refers favorably to practiced it in the early church. LDS practice Baptism for the Dead because Joseph Smith taught that this was part of God’s church. Others would have to comment on when this practice was linked to the practice in Paul’s day AND there may be a VERY close connection, but the CoJCoLDS is based on the same thing the Bible is based on, “God’s revelation to His Church.” This means that as a LDS we often find great support for our teachings in the Bible, but believing in ongoing PUBLIC Revelation (like the early church did) is more important than trying to derive ancient practices from the ancient records.

Second, Catholic scholars have written a great deal on BftD. There have been upwards of 30 different ideas on what it is Paul was referring to. The bulk of these do not follow Rebecca’s “it is THEY not the Christians” (what I might call “do not trust the corrupted Bible record.”) interpretation. Francis De Salas spoke approvingly of this ancient practice in his anti-Protestant apologetic. His point was that it was an ancient Christian practice, but we should view “baptism” in this text as any act done for the salvation of those who have died. Thus the Protestant anti-Purgatory position is non-Biblical. So, Francis De Salas would absolutely disagree with you when you say, “it is logical to conclude that ‘they’ are not practicing a universally held belief by all Christians.”

Third, while there is little (none to my knowledge) record to suggest that the ancient church had Temples with baptismal fonts were proxy baptism for the dead occurred, the idea that this was some non-Christian local Corinthian practice is IMO almost impossible to right with the limited history we have. In the 5th century at the Council of Carthage, the prevailing church authorities (who claim they cannot receive public revelation and are thus not a representation of God’s most full church structure) declared that, “And that neither the Eucharist nor Baptism should be given to the bodies of the dead.” It seems clear to me that they were not devoting their time to speak against a practice that never occurred outside of Corinth greater than 3 centuries ago.

Finally, the practice of baptizing dead bodies if that is what was happening in the 5th century MIGHT need to be stopped. LDS have never baptized dead bodies and I hope we do not start anytime soon. There is plenty in the Bible and the early church that suggests a more rarified worship and teaching within the inner circles of Christ’s church. It is the Catholics who have nothing of this left and cry “gnostic” whenever something like this is present in the history, but it was present in the early church and discussion of such things is present in the Bible (again present and spoken of approvingly in the Bible).

Anyway, I think the “it was a very localized and non-Christian practice” because Paul said, “they” apologetic is not a strong Biblical argument. Many Catholics have agreed. The idea that Paul would use the practice of a non-sanctioned group to argue for the validity of the resurrection is truly strange. Kind of like Athanasius arguing that Christ must be God because if He was not, He could not make us gods while Athanasius NEVER believes that men can become gods. Of course Paul and Athanasius do not use such silly arguments IMO. Paul spoke approvingly of Baptism for the Dead (and Athanasius spoke approvingly of deification).
Charity, TOm
Still building straw men I see. 🙂 I said, we don’t know who “they” are. I have never insisted who “they” are or not. I’ve never said the Bible is in error. That statement comes from you insisting that “they” must be and only were Christians. Which the text does not support and neither does actual Christian practice.

Paul used examples of the culture around him. For example, he used an analogy from Greek games, saying he was running a race to the finish, which for Greeks, was done in honor of Greek gods. Does this mean that we should make racing an ordinance?

Indeed, Mormons practice baptism for the dead because that is what Mormons believe.
 
Biblical Historians:

“Some commentators assume this verse refers to the practice of giving newly baptized children the names of deceased non-Christian relatives”

“Another interpretation envisions the baptism of catechumens who have witnessed the persecution and martyrdom of their Christian predecessors”

“A related view holds that the group consists of those baptized in connection with a dead Christian loved one”

“Others advance the possibility that Paul was referring to the practice of a heretical cult that existed in Corinth”

“We have no way of knowing for sure who was engaging in this practice”🤷

Joseph Smith:

“In January 1836… Joseph Smith received a vision…”

“The Prophet began by testifying that the “gospel of Jesus Christ brought glad tidings of great joy.” He read most of 1 Corinthians 15 and explained that the Apostle was talking to a people who understood baptism for the dead, for it was practiced among them.”

Ain’t revelation grand?🙂
You’re trying to convince people that don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet anyway. We don’t consider this to be a revelation in fact most of us believe it to be false such as myself. I do not mean to be offensive but you’re on a Catholic forum talking about Mormonism you’re going to get a Catholic point of view from Catholics
 
You’re trying to convince people that don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet anyway. We don’t consider this to be a revelation in fact most of us believe it to be false such as myself. I do not mean to be offensive but you’re on a Catholic forum talking about Mormonism you’re going to get a Catholic point of view from Catholics
👍 I understand this, and no offense taken.
 
Here are a couple of quotes from scholars sympathetic to the LDS position regarding baptism for the dead. I learned of them here: publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/19/2/S00004-5018489f69cae3BapDead.pdf
William F. Orr and James A. Walther are not biblical historians. They are theologians who are commenting on what appears in the text. They did not refer to any other reference and said ‘apparently’ in reference to baptism of the dead. Not what I was asking for as evidence, sorry.

New Testament scholar (not historian) Leon L. Morris wrote more speculation from the text in 1 Cor.did not refer to any other reference. Not what I was asking for as evidence, sorry.

You know you really need to find real evidence that it was an approved Christian practice, and it is a valid practice that produces tangible results. After all you are taking so many hours out of your life and others to go through a ceremony that may be just a waste of time.
 
Question on semantics, wording, and thousands of years of translations and word use:

If Thor is supposed to die, and saints and angels don’t… most think of saints and angels as more powerful than pagan “gods”. Could one debate that to give the title of “god” as a descriptor of the pagan dieties actually apply better to our version of not gods? Just a thought to “god” vs God.
 
You know you really need to find real evidence that it was an approved Christian practice, and it is a valid practice that produces tangible results. After all you are taking so many hours out of your life and others to go through a ceremony that may be just a waste of time.
An interesting suggestion, given that…
  1. John 20:29 teaches that the blessed are those who haven’t seen, but believe. (Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.)
  2. The Catholic Church practices infant baptism even though there is no record infant baptism in the Bible, no guidance in the Bible stating specifically that infants should be baptized, and no recorded historical infant baptism before 200AD.
Is the Catholic Church’s efforts to baptize infants a waste of time?
 
Second, Catholic scholars have written a great deal on BftD. There have been upwards of 30 different ideas on what it is Paul was referring to. The bulk of these do not follow Rebecca’s “it is THEY not the Christians” (what I might call “do not trust the corrupted Bible record.”) interpretation. Francis De Salas spoke approvingly of this ancient practice in his anti-Protestant apologetic. His point was that it was an ancient Christian practice, but we should view “baptism” in this text as any act done for the salvation of those who have died. Thus the Protestant anti-Purgatory position is non-Biblical. So, Francis De Salas would absolutely disagree with you when you say, “it is logical to conclude that ‘they’ are not practicing a universally held belief by all Christians.”
Hi TOm - St. Francis DeSales did not say we should baptize the dead. He says we are to fast and pray for their souls. These are his exact words on the subject:

*This passage properly understood evidently shows that **it was the custom of the primitive *Church to watch, pray, fast, for the souls of the departed. For, firstly, in the Scriptures to be baptized is often taken for afflictions and penances; as in Luke 12:50 . . . and in St. Mark 10:38-9 . . . — in which places Our Lord calls pains and afflictions baptism [cf. Matthew 3:11, 20:22-3, Luke 3:16].
This then is the sense of that Scripture: if the dead rise not again, what is the use of mortifying and afflicting oneself, of praying and fasting for the dead? And indeed this sentence of St. Paul resembles that of 2 Maccabees 12:44: “It is superfluous and vain to pray for the dead if the dead rise not again. . . .” Now it was not for those in Paradise [heaven], who had no need of it, nor for those in hell, who could get no benefit from it; it was, then, for those in Purgatory. Thus did St. Ephraim [d.373] expound it.

– Taken from Dave Armstrong’s website socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/02/1-corinthians-1529-and-baptism-for-dead.html
 
An interesting suggestion, given that…
If you believe that Jesus is God and that what He taught was Truth, then living baptism is necessary.

Jesus didn’t teach that we should baptize the dead. Neither did Paul. And why would he when he believed Jesus’ second coming was immanent and there would not be enough time to baptize the billion people who came prior to his teaching or were not around his teaching and died? Sooner or later we have to use our common sense. :cool:
 
You know you really need to find real evidence that it was an approved Christian practice, and it is a valid practice that produces tangible results. After all you are taking so many hours out of your life and others to go through a ceremony that may be just a waste of time.
If you are right, we are wasting our time. If we are right, you can thank us later.😃
 
If you are right, we are wasting our time. If we are right, you can thank us later.😃
We can know who is “right” right now. Jesus gave us all of the answers and left them with His Church 2,000 years ago. There’s no need to guess!

You’d make a great Catholic, btw. 🙂
 
An interesting suggestion, given that…
  1. John 20:29 teaches that the blessed are those who haven’t seen, but believe. (Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.)
  2. The Catholic Church practices infant baptism even though there is no record infant baptism in the Bible, no guidance in the Bible stating specifically that infants should be baptized, and no recorded historical infant baptism before 200AD.
Is the Catholic Church’s efforts to baptize infants a waste of time?
I don’t know what part of the bible this is in but I clearly remember baptizing entire households. So if an infant is part of a family it would suggest the household or do infants not count?
 
I don’t know what part of the bible this is in but I clearly remember baptizing entire households. So if an infant is part of a family it would suggest the household or do infants not count?
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” Acts 2:38-39

“And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.” Acts 16:33

“Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” Acts 22:16

Don’t forget, Jesus called the children to him. “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” Luke 18:15–16

“Now they were bringing even infants to him” (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). Luke 18:15
 
I don’t know what part of the bible this is in but I clearly remember baptizing entire households. So if an infant is part of a family it would suggest the household or do infants not count?
Well, let’s see…

Regarding the household of Cornelius, Peter said in Acts 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone who believes in him will receive forgiveness of sins through his name. And then in Acts 11:14 it states “who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.”

Sounds like the entire household was old enough to believe, and therefore definitely there were not any infants.

Regarding Crispus, Acts 18:8 states "Crispus, the synagogue official, came to believe in the Lord along with his entire household, and many of the Corinthians who heard believed and were baptized.

Again, sounds like the entire household was old enough to believe, and therefore definitely there were not any infants.

And then there’s the jailer…

Acts 16:33, 34 He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once. He brought them up into his house and provided a meal and with his household rejoiced at having come to faith in God.

Infants are too young to rejoice.

Also, the household of Stephanas was also baptized (1 Corinthians 1:16). 1 Corinthians 16:15 goes on to say “I urge you, brothers—you know that the household of Stephanas is the firstfruits of Achaia and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the holy ones”.

Infants are just a tad young to devote themselves to the service of others.
 
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” Acts 2:38-39

“And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.” Acts 16:33
As I just mentioned, verse 34 states that the household rejoiced, so there clearly were not infants in that household.
“Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” Acts 22:16
This clearly cannot be aimed at infants. They don’t understand the command “Rise!”, in Catholic theology they one have only one sin which was that inherited from Adam, and they’re too young to call upon the name of God.
Don’t forget, Jesus called the children to him. “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” Luke 18:15–16

“Now they were bringing even infants to him” (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). Luke 18:15
Mark 10:13-16 And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it. Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them.

Notice that Jesus embraced and blessed the children, but did not baptize them?

“he embraced them and blessed them” (Greek, enankalisamenos auta kateulogei)
 
Mark 10:13-16 And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it. Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them.

Notice that Jesus embraced and blessed the children, but did not baptize them?

“he embraced them and blessed them” (Greek, enankalisamenos auta kateulogei)
Right, there is no reason to deny children baptism, which is their entry into a life in Christ.
 
gazelam, nice attempt at deflecting the conversation. But you are still left with the fact that baptism for the dead was more than likely not a sanctioned Christian practice prior to Joseph Smith and was invented by him. Likely for the reason I mentioned earlier, so his family could feel comfort that his brother was in heaven.
 
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