LDS and Catholic Differences

[dianaiad]

Paul self-identifies as unmarried. This either means that he was never married, or that he was once married and is no longer married.

Yes. But not, I think, regarding everything about the use of tangible aids to prayer & spiritual practice.

Well, as to that, we do NOT have ‘tangible aids to prayer,’ not in the way you have a rosary, icons, candles…whatever it is you use. Shoot, we don’t even have memorized prayers, except for the Sacrament prayers. Certainly we do not recite the Lord’s Prayer or creeds.

In fact, it’s rather a big deal to us that we avoid that. The most we have is a sort of scaffold for prayer; we open one by addressing God the Father (Our Father in Heaven, or “Father in Heaven”…) we begin by saying thank you…it’s only polite to do that before you get to the begging part. Then we get to the asking for stuff…and we end in the Name of Jesus Christ, and say 'Amen."

Reminders of who we are? Yeah, we have those all over the place–but they aren’t ‘aids to prayer.’ Nor are they altars in any sense of the word. It’s fuzzy, I suppose…but while I have a picture of Jesus blessing the children on my wall, when I see it I don’t think “well, pray now…” I think about His life; nothing so formal as a prayer.

I know I’m saying this badly.

 

[sablouwho]

Well, as to that, we do NOT have ‘tangible aids to prayer,’ not in the way you have a rosary, icons, candles…whatever it is you use. Shoot, we don’t even have memorized prayers, except for the Sacrament prayers. Certainly we do not recite the Lord’s Prayer or creeds.

In fact, it’s rather a big deal to us that we avoid that. The most we have is a sort of scaffold for prayer; we open one by addressing God the Father (Our Father in Heaven, or “Father in Heaven”…) we begin by saying thank you…it’s only polite to do that before you get to the begging part. Then we get to the asking for stuff…and we end in the Name of Jesus Christ, and say 'Amen."

Reminders of who we are? Yeah, we have those all over the place–but they aren’t ‘aids to prayer.’ Nor are they altars in any sense of the word. It’s fuzzy, I suppose…but while I have a picture of Jesus blessing the children on my wall, when I see it I don’t think “well, pray now…” I think about His life; nothing so formal as a prayer.

I know I’m saying this badly.

Jumping in here for a moment…

This is my personal experience, it isn’t something that I think is “right or wrong.” I personally have began to develop a great appreciation for tangible prayer aids. Judaism (my background) really doesn’t have much by way of this, nor do most Protestant denoms (I was a “generic” Christian for 2 years, went to a Presbyterian church), ditto for LDS.

I tend to get very academic and intellectual at times when it comes to matters of faith. I’ve developed quite a fondness for…um…stuff. Matter. Prayer aids, whatever you want to call 'em.

I went thru some initiatory rites on Ash Wednesday mass, at one point they put a rosary around my neck. I almost started to cry…

…this from a woman who up until very recently did NOT get the Mary/saints thing.

 

[aspirant]

Shoot, we don’t even have memorized prayers

Not all Catholic prayers involving tangible aids involve “memorized prayers.” The stations of the cross, for example, don’t. Some people might use hymns or reflections written by other people while doing it, but that’s not a necessary part of the devotion itself, only an additional aid.

Reminders of who we are? Yeah, we have those all over the place–but they aren’t ‘aids to prayer.’

I just can’t imagine it would be possibly to utterly divorce such things entirely from one’s prayer life. If one really believes the LDS faith, surely seeing the image of the angel Moroni atop the temple would-- at least occasionally-- rouse the heart and lift the mind to God. If one reads the scriptures with faith, surely this too would help raise the mind and heart to God, at least sometimes.

I think about His life; nothing so formal as a prayer.

From our perspective, this may already be prayer, if done with faith and love.

I know I’m saying this badly.

It’s hard to express the depths of faith in mere words.

 

[AMDGtoo]

…and I wasn’t the one attacking YOUR beliefs regarding the priesthood, or making snide and disrespectful remarks about it.

Back again with the “intentionally insulting”, “mocking”, “attacking”, accusations of “making snide and disrespectful remarks”?

Looks like yet another difference between Catholics and the LDS is that the LDS have an automatic “persecution complex” as big as all outdoors (even when it’s not called for), and intentionally steer toward rash judgement.

You know just because I was able to point out that Hebrews 7 points to the Melchzidek priesthood referring to Jesus not to 18 or 19 year old boys means just that. If you saw something “snide or disrespectful” in it, it was your own reading into what I posted.

BTW, you are welcome that I was in part helpful to you in enlightening you on the fact that priests offer sacrifice and the Mass is a sacrifice.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Not all Catholic prayers involving tangible aids involve “memorized prayers.”

That’s the truth. (A Byzantine Eastern Catholic priest I know would always chant the most beautiful “adlib” blessing at mealtimes.) And remember that there are different types of prayer as well. “Memorized prayers” (or as once was cruelly said “canned prayers”) are not the only prayers that Catholics do.

 

[aspirant]

“Memorized prayers” (or as once was cruelly said “canned prayers”) are not the only prayers that Catholics do.

Of course not. But neither is there anything wrong with turning words originally spoken or penned by another person into one’s own prayer. Jesus did not avoid repeating his words in prayer, nor have we any need to.

 

[mfbukowski]

I think we need to be clear on the issue of “props” here. Yes, Mormons have pictures of Jesus Christ, the apostles, modern apostles, temples, Joseph Smith, etc. in various places, some found in their wards (usually in the hallways not the main chapel), temples, homes, etc. However, there is a difference between this and what the Catechism terms the “veneration of sacred images”. While you will find the above images in Mormonism, you will not find an equivalent to the veneration of icons/statues. There is no concept that ““the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”” (Catechism paragraph 2132).

Absolutely. That is what I was trying to say. There is a difference.

 

[dianaiad]

Not all Catholic prayers involving tangible aids involve “memorized prayers.” The stations of the cross, for example, don’t. Some people might use hymns or reflections written by other people while doing it, but that’s not a necessary part of the devotion itself, only an additional aid.

I just can’t imagine it would be possibly to utterly divorce such things entirely from one’s prayer life. If one really believes the LDS faith, surely seeing the image of the angel Moroni atop the temple would-- at least occasionally-- rouse the heart and lift the mind to God. If one reads the scriptures with faith, surely this too would help raise the mind and heart to God, at least sometimes.

Oh, it does…as do those other things we have. However…hmmn. I KNOW I’m saying this badly…there is this welling of joy, or quiet peaceful reflection and ability to "ponder’ or reflect that goes with all such things, but we don’t consider those to be ‘prayer,’ exactly. At least not in a formal way.

Though when you consider it, it is, actually, a prayer of sorts, isn’t it? Just as any time our thoughts are drawn to him is, in some way, prayer. It’s odd, I think…we who are such sticklers for NOT having any sort of formal recited prayer have this instinctive separation between “prayer as directly addressing the Father,” and this other state of being that is akin to it–but which we do not call “prayer.”

I’m going to have to think about that for awhile.

From our perspective, this may already be prayer, if done with faith and love.

It’s hard to express the depths of faith in mere words.

Isn’t it, though? Still, trying to do so helps us understand ourselves, even if it doesn’t help us explain to others all the time.

 

[mfbukowski]

Paul self-identifies as unmarried. This either means that he was never married, or that he was once married and is no longer married.

Good. Then we agree. You acknowledge he could have been a widower, and we think that he was in fact either a widower or perhaps separated in some way from his wife, perhaps even because of his conversion.

 

[mfbukowski]

Yes, the Eucharist and the Sacrament can both be sacrifices in the sense of a sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise, and “broken heart and contrite spirit”. However, as you know, it is important to make the distinction that the Mass is also a sacrifice in the sense that it is a re-presentation (in an “unbloody” way) of the sacrifice of Christ, and uses terminology such as “victim”. So, Christ is being sacrificed on the altar, however He is not being sacrificed again and again, but we travel back in time to Calvary, and He is sacrificed, in an unbloody way.

Again though, the sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise, and/or a broken heart and contrite spirit also make both of these rituals sacrifices.

This helps me, but I must confess I still don’t understand it. To me a sacrifice is giving up something important to gain something else more important, and it has never been clear to me how that applies to blessing the Eucharist. I honestly would like to try to understand that, and don’t for a second want to be disrespectful, it’s just that I don’t at all understand the Catholic pov on this and never have, even when I was a Catholic. The priest blesses the bread, and the belief is that it thereby becomes the body and blood of the Lord. Ok- either you believe that or not, but I am not seeing the “sacrifice” portion there at all. How is it even a “representation” of his sacrifice?

Is it because he is giving us his body, so in a sense that parallels the fact that he gave his body for us on the cross? Is that it?

But then it would seem that the sacrifice is symbolic rather than a true “sacrifice”. But if it is a true sacrifice each time, it would seem he is being sacrificed repreatedly, which is precisely what Hebrews says is not necessary. It is very confusing to me. It is either a symbolic giving of his body, or the sacrifice is repeated if it really IS his body.

It is not clear what thanksgiving has to do with sacrifice. I don’t see any sacrifice involved in giving thanks. Please help explain this to a dumb Mormon! The language is just not clear to me!

 

[aspirant]

I KNOW I’m saying this badly…

It’s OK. Words fail!

Though when you consider it, it is, actually, a prayer of sorts, isn’t it? Just as any time our thoughts are drawn to him is, in some way, prayer.

I think so.

Still, trying to do so helps us

Oh, I agree! Such matters are too important not to speak, and also too important for words to be adequate.

 

[aspirant]

To me a sacrifice is giving up something important to gain something else more important

A sacrifice is anything offered/given to God. In previous covenants many of them, after that, were eaten by the priests and/or people.

I honestly would like to try to understand that, and don’t for a second want to be disrespectful, it’s just that I don’t at all understand the Catholic pov on this and never have, even when I was a Catholic. The priest blesses the bread, and the belief is that it thereby becomes the body and blood of the Lord. Ok- either you believe that or not, but I am not seeing the “sacrifice” portion there at all. How is it even a “representation” of his sacrifice?

Jesus offers himself to the Father through the actions of the priest. This is not, in our view, a new self-offering of Jesus to the Father, as if it’s being done “again,” but a presentation of the original self-offering of Jesus to the Father.

Is it because he is giving us his body, so in a sense that parallels the fact that he gave his body for us on the cross? Is that it?

Close. Jesus’ whole life, and especially his death on the cross, was offered to the Father for us. Through the divine liturgy, this self-offering of Jesus to the Father for our sakes is made present to us now, in an unbloody manner.

if it is a true sacrifice each time, it would seem he is being sacrificed repreatedly

Some Protestants mistakenly think we believe this, but we do not. Jesus sacrificed himself once for all. For God, who is eternal, that sacrifice is always present. For us who are in time, the Mass makes this one perfect sacrifice present to us here and now.

If you are a sci fi buff, you might imagine it as the priest, by the power of Christ, opening a window to eternity that allows us to participate in the single sacrifice of Christ that is always present to the Father.

It is not clear what thanksgiving has to do with sacrifice.

A sacrifice is anything offered or given to God. Thus the Psalms, for example, encourage us: “Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High… The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies Me.”

 

[mfbukowski]

A sacrifice is anything offered/given to God. In previous covenants many of them, after that, were eaten by the priests and/or people.

Jesus offers himself to the Father through the actions of the priest. This is not, in our view, a new self-offering of Jesus to the Father, as if it’s being done “again,” but a presentation of the original self-offering of Jesus to the Father.

Close. Jesus’ whole life, and especially his death on the cross, was offered to the Father for us. Through the divine liturgy, this self-offering of Jesus to the Father for our sakes is made present to us now, in an unbloody manner.

Some Protestants mistakenly think we believe this, but we do not. Jesus sacrificed himself once for all. For God, who is eternal, that sacrifice is always present. For us who are in time, the Mass makes this one perfect sacrifice present to us here and now.

If you are a sci fi buff, you might imagine it as the priest, by the power of Christ, opening a window to eternity that allows us to participate in the single sacrifice of Christ that is always present to the Father.

A sacrifice is anything offered or given to God. Thus the Psalms, for example, encourage us: “Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High… The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies Me.”

Thank you for your post, and I appreciate your efforts to explain it.

 

[jake23]

Please read the books “the twentyseventh wife” which is of Ann Youngs Journal. She was the 27th wife of the false prophet Brigham Young and exposes the darkness of the man. Also read the ninth wife. These expose the false prophets as blackmailers, rapist, and molesters, besides the offense of claiming false doctrine. Also please watch on DVD or youtube “the book of mormon vs. the Bible” and "the book of mormon vs. DNA. I can tell you as a someone who grew up in Utah as a Mormon that almost everything is misconstrude and false.

 

[mfbukowski]

Please read the books “the twentyseventh wife” which is of Ann Youngs Journal. She was the 27th wife of the false prophet Brigham Young and exposes the darkness of the man. Also read the ninth wife. These expose the false prophets as blackmailers, rapist, and molesters, besides the offense of claiming false doctrine. Also please watch on DVD or youtube “the book of mormon vs. the Bible” and "the book of mormon vs. DNA. I can tell you as a someone who grew up in Utah as a Mormon that almost everything is misconstrude and false.

Is this addressed to me?

I have learned that one does not go to disgruntled employees when one is about to buy stock, and even if Brigham Young was a child molester, which clearly he was not, we have a little problem with that argument with pots calling kettles black etc.

You are not acquainted with the various arguments about the bible and BOM or DNA, and I feel it is useless to go into them since it appears your mind is made up.

Unfortunately, it appears no one can answer my questions about the “sacrifice” in the Mass.

Oh well, I hope this thread was productive for someone.

 

[aspirant]

it appears no one can answer my questions about the “sacrifice” in the Mass.

What question wasn’t answered?

 

[AMDGtoo]

What question wasn’t answered?

Yes, I thought you answered mfbukowski’s question and he thanked you for it. But maybe that wasn’t the question to which he was referring. Don’t know.

 

[mfbukowski]

A sacrifice is anything offered/given to God. In previous covenants many of them, after that, were eaten by the priests and/or people.

So what is it that we give to God in the mass?

Jesus offers himself to the Father through the actions of the priest. This is not, in our view, a new self-offering of Jesus to the Father, as if it’s being done “again,” but a presentation of the original self-offering of Jesus to the Father.

How does he offer himself through the priest? What is your evidence that happens?

Why is it not a new self offering?

Close. Jesus’ whole life, and especially his death on the cross, was offered to the Father for us. Through the divine liturgy, this self-offering of Jesus to the Father for our sakes is made present to us now, in an unbloody manner.

This doesn’t explain it at all, it just re-asserts your position.

Some Protestants mistakenly think we believe this, but we do not. Jesus sacrificed himself once for all. For God, who is eternal, that sacrifice is always present. For us who are in time, the Mass makes this one perfect sacrifice present to us here and now.

Why do we need that when Paul says we don’t (quoted above Hebrews 7 I think)?

If you are a sci fi buff, you might imagine it as the priest, by the power of Christ, opening a window to eternity that allows us to participate in the single sacrifice of Christ that is always present to the Father.

I don’t need a priest for that I don’t think.

A sacrifice is anything offered or given to God. Thus the Psalms, for example, encourage us: “Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High… The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies Me.”

Ok, but why do I need a priest to offer thanksgiving?

 

[mfbukowski]

What question wasn’t answered?

No, I thanked him for the effort he took to explain it, but unfortunately, I don’t think anyone here can explain it. I just gave up.

I honestly think all you can do is re-assert the church’s positions without explaining them. I don’t expect you to be able to explain them, unfortunately.

I wish no one no ill will, it is just that in my opinion, the theology is unexplainable- eventually we will get to “it’s a mystery”.

That’s fine- faith is faith, and I am not criticizing anyone for that. I don’t want to argue that’s all.

If you can explain it, fine, if not fine. I don’t think the pope himself could explain it.

 

[jake23]

Is this addressed to me?

I have learned that one does not go to disgruntled employees when one is about to buy stock, and even if Brigham Young was a child molester, which clearly he was not, we have a little problem with that argument with pots calling kettles black etc.

You are not acquainted with the various arguments about the bible and BOM or DNA, and I feel it is useless to go into them since it appears your mind is made up.

Unfortunately, it appears no one can answer my questions about the “sacrifice” in the Mass.

Oh well, I hope this thread was productive for someone.

well…obviousely my post was intended for nonmormons. The disgracefull priest in our religion is not comparison to a so called direct prophet of God who is writing new revelations and laws. I wasnt there personally so I guess we will never know for sure about Youngs encounters with his little girls, however we do have the journal from the wife that divorced him “Ema” who exposes him. As far as having my mind made up, yes as an exmormon who is well educated in the occult along with a degree in biblical studies I can assure you there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. The arguments against those two DVD’s is horrible and shows to be desperation to find anything to cover up the cracks which exposes the lies of a conman and false prophet.