LDS and Catholic Differences

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why don’t we all give up being married if that equals serving god and his purposes.
When Jesus taught about marriage, his disciples suggested it would be better not to marry: “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” Jesus affirmed that it is better not to marry, but that this singleness is a gift given only to some: “There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” St. Paul taught the same, that it is better not to marry, but that each should live according to the gift he or she is given, whether marriage or celibacy: “I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry… Let each of you lead the life that the Lord has assigned, to which God called you… The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin are anxious about the affairs of the Lord, so that they may be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord… he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage does better.”
Of course that in my mind goes against the commandment to procreate
Which the celibate are able to fulfill in an even greater way than the married, as the celibate St. Paul did for his spiritual children: “Though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel.”
I can’t see why God would not want his servants to enjoy the blessings of marriage.
The blessings of the celibate life, freely received as a gift from God for the sake of God and neighbor, are even greater. Marriage is a great and holy thing, a sacrament signifying that divine union which holy celibacy, freely received, realizes even in this life. When we all attain the latter, marriage will pass away.
 
This causes me to ask even further, if the GA were wealthy before their calling, why would they still need $70,000 per year instead of only living on less that covered their needs? That is still a ton of money for serving God. Even married Orthodox priests live on a lot less I’m sure.
It is done on an as-needed basis. It is not a set thing.
 
… the unmarried woman [is]…anxious about the affairs of the Lord…
Well, Paul does have a point here, but lemme tell you, being single and knowing that I want to be (re-) married, my mind isn’t solely focused on God. Especially not on Valentines Day!
The blessings of the celibate life, freely received as a gift from God for the sake of God and neighbor, are even greater. Marriage is a great and holy thing, a sacrament signifying that divine union which holy celibacy, freely received, realizes even in this life. When we all attain the latter, marriage will pass away.
This is nothing against what you have written aspirant, this is purely me talking about my own experiences. I honestly have trouble relating to the idea that the blessings of the celibate life are somehow better/greater. It makes me sad. The belief that marriage will pass away also makes me sad too. That is, admittedly, one of the reasons I have been attracted to the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg on this subject–he believed marriage continues in the afterlife).
 
Well, Paul does have a point here, but lemme tell you, being single and knowing that I want to be (re-) married, my mind isn’t solely focused on God. Especially not on Valentines Day!
😉
I honestly have trouble relating to the idea that the blessings of the celibate life are somehow better/greater. It makes me sad. The belief that marriage will pass away also makes me sad too.
I used to feel that way, too.
 
This is how you start a discussion and then present YOUR view? I’m sorry, but offering a link to a biased source with a vested interest in the topic is not providing answers to specific questions put forth to YOU. Also, the link provides much more LDS apologetics on many other subjects and providing a link to such seems to be an attempt to seek converts from this forum.

In John 6:66, we see a clear ‘apostasy’ of His disciples who left Him and walked with Him no more. Did this apostasy invalidate Christ’s priesthood in your opinion?

Another point, do you, Mormons, doubt Christ’s prophetic messages? He told His Apostles they would die and be hated for His name’s sake.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be scandalized and shall betray one another and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise and shall seduce many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations: and then shall the consummation come.


He tells them that they will be put to death and hated and that many would fall away with other’s being seduced, through false prophets. In other words, He told them there would be apostasies, but He never said anything about taking back what He started, in fact He told us this was a NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.

He also is specific when He says this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached to the WHOLE WORLD, until the consummation of the world. The WHOLE WORLD until the consummation means there will be no gaps, no generations without. Christ set an authority in His Church. They were those commissioned to preach the Gospel.

Did God only appoint those twelve to go out? Were they the only ones appointed by Christ, so that through the death of the last of the twelve a valid priesthood could possibly be lost?

**Luk 10:1 And after these things, the Lord appointed also other seventy-two. And he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come.
Luk 10:2 And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he send labourers into his harvest.
Luk 10:3 Go: Behold I send you as lambs among wolves.
Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
Luk 10:5 Into whatever house you enter, first say: Peace be to this house.
Luk 10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him: but if not, it shall return to you.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house, remain, eating and drinking such things as they have: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Remove not from house to house.
Luk 10:8 And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein and say to them: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:10 But into whatsoever city you enter, and they receive you not, going forth into the streets thereof, say:
Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city that cleaveth to us, we wipe off against you. Yet know this, that the kingdom of God is at hand.
Luk 10:12 I say to you, it shall be more tolerable at that day for Sodom than for that city.
Luk 10:13 Woe to thee, Corozain! Woe to thee, Bethsaida! For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
Luk 10:15 And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. **

The great apostasy is a creation of Joseph Smith’s, to justify a ‘new’ Church, of which He could be in power over and he has seduced many.

If you wish to bring up a discussion, you need to discuss it from your point of view, with explanations and resources and not just a link to a Mormon apologetics website.

You can start by providing the sources for who started the great apostasy and where are their writings defending their actions, since they were justified in leaving such a corruption.

Please provide the writings of those who defended against those who apostatized away from what they were teaching.
 
Well, Paul does have a point here, but lemme tell you, being single and knowing that I want to be (re-) married, my mind isn’t solely focused on God. Especially not on Valentines Day!

This is nothing against what you have written aspirant, this is purely me talking about my own experiences. I honestly have trouble relating to the idea that the blessings of the celibate life are somehow better/greater. It makes me sad. The belief that marriage will pass away also makes me sad too. That is, admittedly, one of the reasons I have been attracted to the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg on this subject–he believed marriage continues in the afterlife).
I also believe that marriages can continue and I don’t see celibate life as gift.
 
This is how you start a discussion and then present YOUR view? I’m sorry, but offering a link to a biased source with a vested interest in the topic is not providing answers to specific questions put forth to YOU. Also, the link provides much more LDS apologetics on many other subjects and providing a link to such seems to be an attempt to seek converts from this forum.

In John 6:66, we see a clear ‘apostasy’ of His disciples who left Him and walked with Him no more. Did this apostasy invalidate Christ’s priesthood in your opinion?

Another point, do you, Mormons, doubt Christ’s prophetic messages? He told His Apostles they would die and be hated for His name’s sake.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be scandalized and shall betray one another and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise and shall seduce many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations: and then shall the consummation come.


He tells them that they will be put to death and hated and that many would fall away with other’s being seduced, through false prophets. In other words, He told them there would be apostasies, but He never said anything about taking back what He started, in fact He told us this was a NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.

He also is specific when He says this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached to the WHOLE WORLD, until the consummation of the world. The WHOLE WORLD until the consummation means there will be no gaps, no generations without. Christ set an authority in His Church. They were those commissioned to preach the Gospel.

Did God only appoint those twelve to go out? Were they the only ones appointed by Christ, so that through the death of the last of the twelve a valid priesthood could possibly be lost?

Luk 10:1 And after these things, the Lord appointed also other seventy-two. And he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come.
Luk 10:2 And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he send labourers into his harvest.
Luk 10:3 Go: Behold I send you as lambs among wolves.
Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
Luk 10:5 Into whatever house you enter, first say: Peace be to this house.
Luk 10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him: but if not, it shall return to you.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house, remain, eating and drinking such things as they have: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Remove not from house to house.
Luk 10:8 And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein and say to them: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:10 But into whatsoever city you enter, and they receive you not, going forth into the streets thereof, say:
Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city that cleaveth to us, we wipe off against you. Yet know this, that the kingdom of God is at hand.
Luk 10:12 I say to you, it shall be more tolerable at that day for Sodom than for that city.
Luk 10:13 Woe to thee, Corozain! Woe to thee, Bethsaida! For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
Luk 10:15 And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

The great apostasy is a creation of Joseph Smith’s, to justify a ‘new’ Church, of which He could be in power over and he has seduced many.

If you wish to bring up a discussion, you need to discuss it from your point of view, with explanations and resources and not just a link to a Mormon apologetics website.

You can start by providing the sources for who started the great apostasy and where are their writings defending their actions, since they were justified in leaving such a corruption.

Please provide the writings of those who defended against those who apostatized away from what they were teaching.
I started a discussion implying that there were some specific different points of view. I didn’t say i expected you to agree with them or that I started this thread to for you to put specific questions to me. You seem intent on a game of proving your views correct. I loose you win.
 
This is how you start a discussion and then present YOUR view? I’m sorry, but offering a link to a biased source with a vested interest in the topic is not providing answers to specific questions put forth to YOU. Also, the link provides much more LDS apologetics on many other subjects and providing a link to such seems to be an attempt to seek converts from this forum.

In John 6:66, we see a clear ‘apostasy’ of His disciples who left Him and walked with Him no more. Did this apostasy invalidate Christ’s priesthood in your opinion?

Another point, do you, Mormons, doubt Christ’s prophetic messages? He told His Apostles they would die and be hated for His name’s sake.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be scandalized and shall betray one another and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise and shall seduce many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations: and then shall the consummation come.


He tells them that they will be put to death and hated and that many would fall away with other’s being seduced, through false prophets. In other words, He told them there would be apostasies, but He never said anything about taking back what He started, in fact He told us this was a NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.

He also is specific when He says this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached to the WHOLE WORLD, until the consummation of the world. The WHOLE WORLD until the consummation means there will be no gaps, no generations without. Christ set an authority in His Church. They were those commissioned to preach the Gospel.

Did God only appoint those twelve to go out? Were they the only ones appointed by Christ, so that through the death of the last of the twelve a valid priesthood could possibly be lost?

Luk 10:1 And after these things, the Lord appointed also other seventy-two. And he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come.
Luk 10:2 And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he send labourers into his harvest.
Luk 10:3 Go: Behold I send you as lambs among wolves.
Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
Luk 10:5 Into whatever house you enter, first say: Peace be to this house.
Luk 10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him: but if not, it shall return to you.
Luk 10:7 And in the same house, remain, eating and drinking such things as they have: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Remove not from house to house.
Luk 10:8 And into what city soever you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein and say to them: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luk 10:10 But into whatsoever city you enter, and they receive you not, going forth into the streets thereof, say:
Luk 10:11 Even the very dust of your city that cleaveth to us, we wipe off against you. Yet know this, that the kingdom of God is at hand.
Luk 10:12 I say to you, it shall be more tolerable at that day for Sodom than for that city.
Luk 10:13 Woe to thee, Corozain! Woe to thee, Bethsaida! For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
Luk 10:15 And thou, Capharnaum, which art exalted unto heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

The great apostasy is a creation of Joseph Smith’s, to justify a ‘new’ Church, of which He could be in power over and he has seduced many.

If you wish to bring up a discussion, you need to discuss it from your point of view, with explanations and resources and not just a link to a Mormon apologetics website.

You can start by providing the sources for who started the great apostasy and where are their writings defending their actions, since they were justified in leaving such a corruption.

Please provide the writings of those who defended against those who apostatized away from what they were teaching.
The thread was pointing out differences not an attempt to prove one right and one wrong.

Forum Rules:
7. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
 
My Opinion…
In my mind that makes little sense. If it did make sense then why don’t we all give up being married if that equals serving god and his purposes. Of course that in my mind goes against the commandment to procreate and I can’t see why God would not want his servants to enjoy the blessings of marriage.
I’m sorry Christ’s words make little sense to you. Did it occur to you that Christ knew that the vast majority of people would not be able to “accept this teaching” and would want to be married? Christ didn’t command us to be celibate. He said if you can give yourself completely to God in this way then please do it. His meaning could not be more clear. I understand it flies in the face of LDS theology and is uncomfortable to hear. Perhaps this is what Paul talked about when he said people had “itching ears” and did not want to hear the plain truth.
 
Each person has his or her own gift, marriage or celibacy. Though celibacy, freely received, is the greater of the two, being a participation in the life to come, these are not competing but mutually affirming goods. They are both given to make us holy. 🙂
 
The thread was pointing out differences not an attempt to prove one right and one wrong.

Well, by the above statement I believe the differences have been pointed out. So you would like to close this thread now ? That would be a mistake as the main point of any debate is a search for the TRUTH and not as to WHO is right or wrong.
Forum Rules:
7. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
The subject of LDS clergy not getting paid has been brought up by Mormons before on these forums and always by the Mormons. I always get the feeling when they bring it up that they are shaking their finger to non-LDS and saying "our clergy don’t get paid and yours do!!! Na Na Na Na!!! Sorry, that’s that way it appears, as if it is a badge of honor not to get paid. Frankly, I’m sure that most here feel the way I do in that I could care less if your clergy are paid or not, as long as they don’t have gold plated facets and air conditioned dog houses.

So what’s the big deal about not getting paid and why is that so important to you guys? Really, why do yall make an issue about it??
 
The subject of LDS clergy not getting paid has been brought up by Mormons before on these forums and always by the Mormons. I always get the feeling when they bring it up that they are shaking their finger to non-LDS and saying "our clergy don’t get paid and yours do!!! Na Na Na Na!!! Sorry, that’s that way it appears, as if it is a badge of honor not to get paid. Frankly, I’m sure that most here feel the way I do in that I could care less if your clergy are paid or not, as long as they don’t have gold plated facets and air conditioned dog houses.

So what’s the big deal about not getting paid and why is that so important to you guys? Really, why do yall make an issue about it??
I cannot answer this question from the LDS PoV since I am not LDS. However, when I was an investigator, I recall coming across a statement against paid clergy in some document. I honestly don’t recall whether it was in the BoM, the D&C, or perhaps one of the speeches made by JS. But I am pretty sure that there was something in there somewhere that specifically looked down on paid preachers.

Perhaps someone else (an ex-Mo maybe) will remember where the passage comes from.
 
Does baptizing people for the dead without their consent bother you?
No, because without their full consent, it means absolutely nothing. Catholic baptism, however, is done TO infants will they, nill they…and Catholics believe that this baptism leaves an ‘indelible mark’ upon the soul of that person no matter what that person may believe or think. He has no choice whatsoever in the matter.

What we do with proxy work utterly depends upon, and requires, the full consent of the person for whom it is done. For instance, if you die and in a year or so one of your descendents decides to do your ‘work,’ for you, it would mean absolutely nothing if you say no. It is entirely, in other words, up to you.
 
You are wrong. The GAs do get stipends/salaries - big ones. Not that there’s anything wrong with that - it’s just a fact. They also have church corporate credit cards for expenses while traveling, etc. This does not come out of their own pockets.

Check here and here and here for starters.

The LDS Church will not make this info public, so as to keep innocents like you in the dark.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)
Paul, if the LDS church doesn’t make this stuff public, how come I know about it? It’s no big secret, you realize.
 
You must be kidding. The responsibilities of a Catholic Bishop and a Mormon bishop are worlds apart. A catholic Bishop will generally be ministering to a flock of 500,000 Catholics or more and be the responsible for the catholic position for a large metropolitan area. He will typically have 20 years or more of preistly service before he is elevated to this role after spending a minimum of 8 years in college level work in theology. I work with a Mormon bishop and I know I spend more time on religious activities than he does. His flock is only a couple of hundred people at most. The mormon bishop has a full time job and a family to occupy most of his time . My Mormon bishop friend’s degree is in engineering, not theology
This is true. We divide our congregations into small units…a typical ward has between 300 to 500 people for this very reason…too many people in a congregation is too much for one man to deal with. However, please do not compare Catholic Bishops to LDS bishops…the LDS bishop has responsibilities more akin to that of a Parish priest, if anything, If you want to compare responsibilities, I think that a better one would be between a Catholic Bishop and one of our General Authorities–who do, indeed, get stipends and serve their callings full time—and who have a great deal of experience.
 
Since I’ve read dianaiad’s posts on baptism for the dead multiple times, even on threads that were not about it, I think that I already know her response to this:

-baptism for the dead offers someone a choice. It doesn’t make someone Mormon, as it only offers them a choice to accept or reject. It is always up to the dead person whether they accept or reject the effects of the baptism. It doesn’t change anything about them, unless they choose for it to.

-Indelible mark theology causes a permanent change in the soul, and in the case of infants, without their consent. You can’t undo this, even if the infant grows up and now has a choice in what they do, hence the phrase “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”.

Now, my own view of this is that, yes, Catholic theology of baptism does create an indelible mark on the soul, and in the case of infants, it is without their consent. However, one can choose later in life to accept or reject this inheritance. Mortal sin is a rejection of that “indelible mark” and what it means. Yes, it’s still there, however one is turning away from it through mortal sin. I hope that made sense.
Well, you certainly predicted my response correctly. 😉

…and I do appreciate your explanation of how mortal sin is a rejection of that ‘indelible mark.’ My point, however, is confirmed with the 'yes, it’s still there…" part. What if the person does NOT commit a mortal sin, but just happens to believe that his path to Christ lies outside Catholicism? Or…what if a child, having been baptised Catholic, is raised in an entirely different Christian (even, gasp…Mormonism) tradition and lives THAT tradition to the best of his or her ability, and either never commits a mortal sin, or repents of them as soon as he is aware of commiting them?

What if he is simply a faithful Christian who just doesn’t want to be Catholic?
 
I’m a bit confused here. Are LDS arguing for, or against, paid clergy?
I don’t see that there is an argument at all. We are simply stating facts. You pay yours, we don’t pay ours until they are General Authorities.
 
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