LDS and Catholic Differences

[Vile_Servant]

Which as usual for Paul, is a distortion and non- doctrinal.

Show me one doctrinal source for either of these.

“Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.”

• The Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82

“Sunday I Attended the Sabbath School Conference … Joseph F. Smith spoke one hour & 25 minutes. He spoke upon the Marriage in Cana at Galilee. He taught** Jesus was the Bridgegroom and Mary & Martha the brides.** He also refered to Luke 10 ch. 38 to 42 verse, Also John 11 ch. 2 & 5 vers John 12 Ch 3d vers, John 20 8 to 18. Joseph Smith spoke upon these passages to show that Mary & Martha manifested much Closer relationship than merely a believer which looks consister. He did not think that Jesus who decended through Poligamous families from Abraham down & who fulfilled all the Law even baptism by immersion would have lived and died without being married.”

• The Prophet Wilford Woodruff wrote in his journal on July 22, 1883

 

[Marie5890]

…And he would instantly recognize the similarities with Solomon’s temple and feel very at home.

Cheesh, you have to be kidding. You obviously know nothing about the Old Testament and temple worship.

Cheesh, you have got to be kidding. Are you under the belief that what happens in LDS temples is a replica of what happened in Solomon’s Temple?!?! Or that it’s even close??

Do you REALLY believe that???

 

[Marie5890]

Because of all the incense, sacrifice, and Psalm recitation?

Yea, that must be it. That must be what is going on in LDS Temples

 

[Michael_Vernon]

Let’s stop playing with peripheral issues. Let’s get right down to the most fundamental and stark difference between Mormons and Christians. God. Mormons are henotheists. A henotheist is someone who believes that there are many gods but they are obligated to love and adore only one (or in the case of Mormons, one male and female pair, or one male god eternally sealed to more than one female goddess). Mormons officially believe that there are very many gods and godesses like our Heavenly Father and heavenly mother (no more than barely mentioned even in LDS scriptures) who were once men and women on other planets like earth and who have attained celestial exaltation by their own virtue and intelligence. Celestial marriage performed in LDS temples is also required for exaltation. By sexual intercourse and reproduction after their resurrection, the gods and goddesses produce spirit children who must then go through mortal probation and learning to achieve their own exaltation. Therefore, we also are the literal spritual children of our heavenly father and mother (we may have different mothers since our heavenly father may be polygamous). Jesus was literally our oldest brother in our spiritual existence. Please compare that theology to the theology of the RCC or EOC. More could and will be explained by someone who has studied these things with LDS General Authorities if you wish.

 

[Stephen168]

Since we believe you can become “Mormon” in the afterlife, people who are not LDS in this life could end up in the highest portion of the Celestial Kingdom.
The usual answer though doctrinally is in the Terrestrial kingdom, or the second kingdom assuming one did not accept our pov in the afterlife.

"LDS.org:

Kingdoms of Glory- Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
Celestial Kingdom- The highest of the three degrees or kingdoms of glory in heaven, where one is in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The glory of the celestial kingdom is compared to the glory of the sun in the scriptures.
Terrestrial Kingdom- The middle degree or kingdom of the three degrees of glory in heaven. In the scriptures, the glory of the terrestrial kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon.
Telestial Kingdom- The lowest of the three degrees or kingdoms of glory in heaven. The scriptures compare the glory of the telestial kingdom to the glory of the stars.

So one kingdom you are with God and the other two you are not. Heaven without God?

Well actually, my testimony is not based on teachings of anyone but the spirit, but it is useful to note that such things were apparently also taught by the ECF’s including Origen and Clement of Alexandria. Pretty clever of Joseph to be such a good scholar with virtually no education and all.

fairlds.org/Anti-Mormons/Tanners_on_the_Hereafter.html

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed. **To the point Solomon says, For there shall be given to him the choice grace of faith, and a more pleasant lot in the temple of the Lord. (Wisdom 3:14) For the comparative shows that there are lower parts in the temple of God, which is the whole Church. And the superlative remains to be conceived, where the Lord is. **

Clement of Alexandria:

For, in truth, the covenant of salvation, reaching down to us from the foundation of the world, through different generations and times, is one, though conceived as different in respect of gift. For it follows that there is one unchangeable gift of salvation given by one God, through one Lord, benefiting in many ways. For which cause the middle wall which separated the Greek from the Jew is taken away, in order that there might be a peculiar people. And so both meet in the one unity of faith; and the selection out of both is one. And the chosen of the chosen are those who by reason of perfect knowledge are called [as the best] from the Church itself, and honoured with the most august glory— the judges and rulers— four-and-twenty (the grace being doubled) equally from Jews and Greeks. *Since, according to my opinion, the grades here in the Church, of bishops, presbyters, deacons, are imitations of the angelic glory, *and of that economy which, the Scriptures say, awaits those who, following the footsteps of the apostles, have lived in perfection of righteousness according to the Gospel.

I know many people become Catholic after reading the ECFs, so It always draws my interest when a Mormon claims the ECFs teach Mormon beliefs. Except Clement of Rome, Mormons believe the Catholic Church was apostate by the time any of the Fathers lived.

I bolded the parts which the Mormon website had removed from Chapter 14.

In Chapter 13 Clement tells us “there is one unchangeable gift of salvation given by one God, through one Lord, benefiting in many ways” to the Jews and the Greeks. He tells us about the three levels of the Church, Deacon, Priest, Bishop which imitate the three levels of glory in heaven. In Chapter 14, Clement tells us there are various abodes; one is the Church and the three highest abodes reflect the Parable of the Sower(Mathew 13:1-23). As we know the 30, 60, and 100 are all good Christians just like Bishop, Priest and Deacon are all in the Church. Clement is not saying there are three heavens. In fact abodes, does not seem to have anything to do with heaven specifically. Reading Wisdom 3:14 (can Mormons do that?), there is the (one) temple of the Lord; therefore one Church, one God, and one Heaven.

Clement did say there is only one God and the highest level in the Church is the Bishop. I think he also said God is not human. I don’t think these are Mormon beliefs, which might be why they were left out.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I know many people become Catholic after reading the ECFs, so It always draws my interest when a Mormon claims the ECFs teach Mormon beliefs. Except Clement of Rome, Mormons believe the Catholic Church was apostate by the time any of the Fathers lived.

I bolded the parts which the Mormon website had removed from Chapter 14.

In Chapter 13 Clement tells us “there is one unchangeable gift of salvation given by one God, through one Lord, benefiting in many ways” to the Jews and the Greeks. He tells us about the three levels of the Church, Deacon, Priest, Bishop which imitate the three levels of glory in heaven. In Chapter 14, Clement tells us there are various abodes; one is the Church and the three highest abodes reflect the Parable of the Sower(Mathew 13:1-23). As we know the 30, 60, and 100 are all good Christians just like Bishop, Priest and Deacon are all in the Church. Clement is not saying there are three heavens. In fact abodes, does not seem to have anything to do with heaven specifically. Reading Wisdom 3:14 (can Mormons do that?), there is the (one) temple of the Lord; therefore one Church, one God, and one Heaven.

Clement did say there is only one God and the highest level in the Church is the Bishop. I think he also said God is not human. I don’t think these are Mormon beliefs, which might be why they were left out.

The real irony, as someone as pointed out, is that Mormons reject a valid priesthood beyond the last living Apostle not counting St. John who they believe never died, and then see Mormons spin the writings of the early Church fathers to seemingly support their position. How do Mormons accept the writings of those in an invalidated priesthood, when it seems convenient to their argument?

 

[paul_c]

I have been having this discussion with ParkerD and others on another Mormon thread where I asked what Catholics lack for Salvation that the Mormon’s provide. The answer was celestial marriage.

I pointed out that Jesus explicitly says there is no marriage in heaven in Luke 20: 34- 36:
34 Jesus said to them, "The children of this age marry and remarry;
35 but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36 They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise.

I also pointed out that both Jesus and Paul were celibate and that they both recommended that people stay celibate to give their full attention to God if they can manage their lust.

Since they couldn’t deny this, they came back with these sayings were misunderstood because they contradict the commandment to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. It was duly pointed out that just because Adam and Eve as first parents had that particular role did not mean that you needed to be married to get to heaven.

This morphed into a discussion that showed the true colors of the Mormon church because they claimed that the fall of Adam and Eve was necessary and good, leading to celestial marriage that in turn leads to men becoming Gods. So they teach that evil leads to good. Further, when pressed as to why Mormon’s want to become gods, there simply was no answer. Because this is exactly what Eve wanted, isn’t it? That was the temptation the devil offered her, to become a God,

Mormons apparently can not be satisfied with simply being a humble servant of God, they need to become their own gods. That is the difference between Catholics and Mormons.

 

[Stephen168]

The real irony, as someone as pointed out, is that Mormons reject a valid priesthood beyond the last living Apostle not counting St. John who they believe never died, and then see Mormons spin the writings of the early Church fathers to seemingly support their position. How do Mormons accept the writings of those in an invalidated priesthood, when it seems convenient to their argument?

True, like Mormons accept the New Testament which are writings authored, preserved, selected as scripture by the “apostate Church.” My point is the ECFs do not support any unique Mormon beliefs. Mormons might ‘cherry pick’ a sentence or two that sounds good to them but when taken in total they are Catholic. In my post #722, one can see how much of they skipped over to try and make a point and avoid statements contrary to Mormon belief.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Michael Vernon,

**You wrote: ** *Let’s stop playing with peripheral issues. Let’s get right down to the most fundamental and stark difference between Mormons and Christians. God. Mormons are henotheists. A henotheist is someone who believes that there are many gods but they are obligated to love and adore only one (or in the case of Mormons, one male and female pair, or one male god eternally sealed to more than one female goddess). Mormons officially believe that there are very many gods and godesses like our Heavenly Father and heavenly mother (no more than barely mentioned even in LDS scriptures) who were once men and women on other planets like earth and who have attained celestial exaltation by their own virtue and intelligence.

Celestial marriage performed in LDS temples is also required for exaltation. By sexual intercourse and reproduction after their resurrection, the gods and goddesses produce spirit children who must then go through mortal probation and learning to achieve their own exaltation. Therefore, we also are the literal spritual children of our heavenly father and mother (we may have different mothers since our heavenly father may be polygamous). Jesus was literally our oldest brother in our spiritual existence.

Please compare that theology to the theology of the RCC or EOC. More could and will be explained by someone who has studied these things with LDS General Authorities if you wish. *​

And compare that, too, to the faith of the Early Church Fathers! Whatever shallow similarities there may be in the writings of the E.C.F. to which Stephen 168 and others point, there sure is nothing like the above, which, indeed, is L.D.S. Mormon cult teaching, in the faith of the Early Fathers of the Church!

May your own “Anglican Catholic” path lead you to the R.C.C. or to Eastern Orthodoxy!

Pax, Jerry

 

[dianaiad]

Don’t equate the views of our separated evangelical brothers with those of Catholics, who know that Jesus was Jewish…

Goodness, are you telling me that Catholics are not Christian, Paul?

I would never do that, m’self. When I say “Christian” I am refering to all those who put Jesus Christ at the center of their belief system, Catholic or non.

 

[dianaiad]

It seems to me to be ironic that someone would say that Christians believe Jesus Christ was a Christian, not a Jew. Oy vey! Did it escape you that the word Christian comes from the word Christ? Please look-up the derivation of the word Christian and find out where and when it was first used, historically and Biblically.
I would be interested in knowing what significant vestiges of Jadaism of any age there are in Mormonism. Please don’t say temple building. There is no scriptural or historical evidence that Jews used the Tabernacle or Temple for anything that remotely resembles what Mormons do in the structures they call temples.
Have you considered why it is that Jews are vociferously against Mormons doing baptisms for the dead with the names of deceased Jews?
As someone who worked for two years as a volunteer for The Jewish Voice, a Hebrew-Christian ministry closely allied with Jews for Jesus, I can tell you that my Jewish friends would be aghast at your suggestion that there is anything Jewish in Mormonism.
On the other hand, there hasn’t been a day in my life as a Christian that I haven’t read from the Psalms, and also been reminded that Gabriel told Mary that Jesus would rule on the Throne of His father David over the House of Israel forever. Baruch haShem Adonai!

We believe that we are organized the way Jesus organized His original church; the offices are the same, the teachings are the same…so in as much as Jesus was Jewish, and He dictated the way His church was to be run, then we follow that.

By the way, are you under some strange impression that we do not also read, and derive comfort from, the Psalms and the rest of the OT?

Really?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We believe that we are organized the way Jesus organized His original church; the offices are the same, the teachings are the same…so in as much as Jesus was Jewish, and He dictated the way His church was to be run, then we follow that.

By the way, are you under some strange impression that we do not also read, and derive comfort from, the Psalms and the rest of the OT?

Really?

Where did Jesus instruct the Church He built to have ‘secrecy’, such as the secrecy around the Temple ceremonies?

 

[lax16]

“Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.”

• The Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82

“Sunday I Attended the Sabbath School Conference … Joseph F. Smith spoke one hour & 25 minutes. He spoke upon the Marriage in Cana at Galilee. He taught** Jesus was the Bridgegroom and Mary & Martha the brides.** He also refered to Luke 10 ch. 38 to 42 verse, Also John 11 ch. 2 & 5 vers John 12 Ch 3d vers, John 20 8 to 18. Joseph Smith spoke upon these passages to show that Mary & Martha manifested much Closer relationship than merely a believer which looks consister. He did not think that Jesus who decended through Poligamous families from Abraham down & who fulfilled all the Law even baptism by immersion would have lived and died without being married.”

• The Prophet Wilford Woodruff wrote in his journal on July 22, 1883

And Mormons wonder why they are not accepted by main stream Christian Churches as a legitimate religion?

 

[paul_c]

Goodness, are you telling me that Catholics are not Christian, Paul?

I would never do that, m’self. When I say “Christian” I am refering to all those who put Jesus Christ at the center of their belief system, Catholic or non.

I’m telling you that all Catholics are Christian but not all Christians are Catholic and the views you claimed were Christian were certainly not Catholic.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana,

The name of this thread is LDS and Catholic differences.

One of those very big difference is that Catholicism heavily echos Christ being a Jew.
In Her very worship services, Her rites, etc. etc.

Mormonism is devoid of any sense of Christianity’s Hebrew roots. Catholicism, or Orthodoxy for that matter, on the other hand, is not.

Where in any of Mormons worship services is there any sense of Christ was Jewish?

Where in any Catholic worship service is there any sense of Christ as Jewish? Where is that mentioned anywhere?

Again, take a practicing Jew to both Catholic worship services, and then Mormon worship services.

Ask them to tell you what they think.
They will find both Catholicism and Orthodoxy is far more familiar to them than Mormonism.

That may well be true. AFter all, Catholicism and Orthodoxy has been around a lot longer than Mormonism has, and there has been a rather…forced…sense of intimacy for many centuries. Also, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have far more formally liturgical meetings than we do, and I suppose that formality rings more familiar to equally formal Jewish meetings.

I think that this is irrelevant to the point, however. Not emphasizing that Jesus was a Jew is not in any way denying it…it’s like not emphasizing that the sky is blue. It’s obvious; it’s undeniable…it is basic to our understanding and beliefs.

As well, familiarity is not always a good thing, Marie. One DOES get to know one’s enemy a bit more completely than someone who is not an enemy.

Given that until within the lifetime of people who actually still live Jews were considered the dregs of the planet by Catholicism and Orthodoxy–in fact, it wasn’t until 1964-65 that the teachings were changed/clarified (the Church says ‘clarified.’ those of us who are looking from the outside lean toward ‘changed’) to ‘absolve’ the Jews from the crime of killing Jesus…

And even then it was a hard fought fight. Every prelate who attended that session got a 900 page copy of a book entitled “Il Complotto contro la Chiesa” (“the Plot against the Church”) which,according to what I read, made “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” look downright pro Israel.

It’s reception by the men in whose ‘inboxes’ these books were found was less than stellar…irritation is the mildest term used…but the point is, as late as 1965 there was a very well organized and active anti-semetic faction in the church that did its level best to torpedo the declaration regarding the Jews, and they were partly successful. Evidently the language of the 1964 meetings was watered down, and almost didn’t make it into the results OF that session.

…and now I’m seeing you guys actively claim that your worship services are closer to Jewish worship services than ours are.

If that makes you feel better, fine…but it has nothing whatsoever to do with our acceptance of Jesus as a Jew and the way we honor the Jewish people. For one thing, WE don’t have centuries of anti-semitism to try to pretend never existed–and nothing we do is quite so vehemently opposed by Jews as Pope Benedict XVI’s continued efforts to get Pope Pius XII canonized.

 

[dianaiad]

“Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.”

• The Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82

“Sunday I Attended the Sabbath School Conference … Joseph F. Smith spoke one hour & 25 minutes. He spoke upon the Marriage in Cana at Galilee. He taught** Jesus was the Bridgegroom and Mary & Martha the brides.** He also refered to Luke 10 ch. 38 to 42 verse, Also John 11 ch. 2 & 5 vers John 12 Ch 3d vers, John 20 8 to 18. Joseph Smith spoke upon these passages to show that Mary & Martha manifested much Closer relationship than merely a believer which looks consister. He did not think that Jesus who decended through Poligamous families from Abraham down & who fulfilled all the Law even baptism by immersion would have lived and died without being married.”

• The Prophet Wilford Woodruff wrote in his journal on July 22, 1883

…and the man actually has the chutzpah to quote “The Journal of Discourses?”

Great googly moogly.

 

[dianaiad]

Where did Jesus instruct the Church He built to have ‘secrecy’, such as the secrecy around the Temple ceremonies?

Nothing secret about the Temple.

You know that.

Just because I will not discuss Temple matters with you doesn’t mean that what happens in the Temple isn’t instantly accessable by you.

What happens in the Temple is sacred to me. You do not have the right to make me discuss those things with you, and you have no right to assume that because I will not discuss these things with you, that they are ‘secret.’ Not when you can find the whole thing within two mouseclicks.

 

[Vile_Servant]

…and the man actually has the chutzpah to quote “The Journal of Discourses?”

Great googly moogly.

"Gentlemen, that is as plain as the translators, or different councils over this Scripture, dare allow it to go to the world, but the thing is there; it is told; Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do.

Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified. “Has he indeed passed by the nature of angels, and taken upon himself the seed of Abraham, to die without leaving a seed to bear his name on the earth?” No. But when the secret is fully out, the seed of the blessed shall be gathered in, in the last days; and he who has not the blood of Abraham flowing in his veins, who has not one particle of the Savior’s in him, I am afraid is a stereotyped Gentile, who will be left out and not be gathered in the last days; for I tell you it is the chosen of God, the seed of the blessed, that shall be gathered. I do not despise to be called a son of Abraham, if he had a dozen wives; or to be called a brother, a son, a child of the Savior, if he had Mary, and Martha, and several others, as wives; and though he did cast seven devils out of one of them, it is all the same to me."

• excerpt from The Marriage Relations, A General Conference Address Delivered by Elder Orson Hyde of the Twelve, 6 October 1854. The address was delivered in the Old Adobe Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, Utah.

 

[Manchowder]

Actually being able to take a peak what goes on in these temples is pretty fascinating and there was a really good video/documentary about it recently.

 

[lax16]

…and the man actually has the chutzpah to quote “The Journal of Discourses?”

Great googly moogly.

Dianaiad-

What is wrong with the Journal of Discourses?

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.” (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8).

“Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their childrens’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3).

“it is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication,…Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by thich the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusaL” (President Joseph F.Smith, Preface, Volume 18).

“We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the…the Journal of Discourses, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.” (Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 15)