LDS and Catholic Differences

[RebeccaJ]

I am curious where this quote came from. Reference please.

It is interesting that it says that Moses, not God, wrote the Torah

deut 31

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m not a mormon.

That was not the question.

The point is, you hold yourself out as an expert on doctrine while you are often mistaken on what is doctrinal

 

[RebeccaJ]

That was not the question.

The point is, you hold yourself out as an expert on doctrine while you are often mistaken on what is doctrinal

I know what I was taught, and I know what I experienced. That mormons today deny their own teachings is not my mistake.

 

[mfbukowski]

I know what I was taught, and I know what I experienced. That mormons today deny their own teachings is not my mistake.

An interesting point of view.

But if I were to tell of what I was taught about Purgatory and Pagan Babies and Indulgences and the host bleeding in your mouth if you chewed it as being “Catholics denying their own teachings”, what response might you have?

 

[RebeccaJ]

An interesting point of view.

But if I were to tell of what I was taught about Purgatory and Pagan Babies and Indulgences and the host bleeding in your mouth if you chewed it as being “Catholics denying their own teachings”, what response might you have?

Show me where they were ever doctrine.

polygamy
pre-destination based on color skin
God leaves those who are not worthy

All mormon doctrine. I can find all the references you like.

 

[mfbukowski]

Show me where they were ever doctrine.

polygamy
pre-destination based on color skin
God leaves those who are not worthy

All mormon doctrine. I can find all the references you like.

Purgatory was clearly doctrine for Catholics as were indulgences being sold.

And I have posted on what constitutes Mormon doctrine.

If you choose not to believe what Mormon doctrine is based on the church’s own statements, there is nothing much I can do about it.

lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

[aspirant]

Purgatory was clearly doctrine for Catholics as were indulgences being sold.

Purgatory is Catholic doctrine. The Catholic doctrine regarding the nature of indulgences has always made their actual sale impossible, even when unscrupulous people claimed to be selling them.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Purgatory was clearly doctrine for Catholics as were indulgences being sold.

And I have posted on what constitutes Mormon doctrine.

If you choose not to believe what Mormon doctrine is based on the church’s own statements, there is nothing much I can do about it.

lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine

bukowski

Purgatory and indulgences are still doctrine.

If you want to to pretend that mormon doctrine doesn’t change, fine.

I can show you statements from your church manuals that expand on your church’s PR statement. It includes doctrine as your prophet’s statements. Also, you haven’t shown me where this statement on doctrine is doctrinal in itself.

You also have the problem of doctrine that has changed, but was not in your scriptures, like the ban on priesthood for African Americans.

This idea that you don’t have to “listen to the prophet’s voice”, and consider it as the word of your god, is one of the more ludicrous claims by any mormon. It only serves to cover up what you find most difficult to defend.

 

[Arandur]

Aspirant, this is very interesting:
“The frequency of public reading actually increased after this, most congregations both in Israel and in the diaspora reading the Torah aloud in cycles of one to three years.”

Sounds a lot like the formula of Liturgical readings for our Church. Do you have a reference I could pursue further?

Thanks

 

[Stephen168]

and your accusation of the Mormon site being disingenuous was totally uncalled for when in fact it was you who was intentionally dodging the issue being discussed and putting up a smoke screen.

Let me review my post with you, hopefully it with be clearer this time.

Mormons believe in three different kingdom (D&C 76:50-112)
Kingdoms of Glory- Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
Celestial Kingdom- The highest of the three degrees or kingdoms of glory in heaven, where one is in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The glory of the celestial kingdom is compared to the glory of the sun in the scriptures.
Terrestrial Kingdom- The middle degree or kingdom of the three degrees of glory in heaven, where one is in the presence of the son. In the scriptures, the glory of the terrestrial kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon.
Telestial Kingdom- The lowest of the three degrees or kingdoms of glory in heaven.where one is not with the Fathor or the son. The scriptures compare the glory of the telestial kingdom to the glory of the stars.
These kingdoms are separate; just as the sun, moon, and stars are separate.

The Beatific Vision is the immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called “vision” to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed “beatific”.
So to a Christian; the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms are not heaven at all.

The Mormon website wants us to believe that Clement was talking about three Mormon kingdoms when in fact he was not. What Clement was saying is: like three persons in one being (God), three levels in one church (Catholic), many places to sit in one temple (Solomon’s), 30, 60, and 100 bushels of wheat is all wheat, there are three degrees of glory in one heaven. When we enter heaven we will be like God, who is not in human form and we will not take on his nature.

What the Mormon website did was the equivalent of this: Clement writes -]like three persons in one being (God), three levels in one church (Catholic), many places to sit in one temple (Solomon’s),/-] 30, 60, and 100 bushels of wheat is all wheat, there are three degrees of glory in -]one/-] heaven. When we enter heaven we will be like God, -]who is not in human form and we will not take on his nature./-]

You may think the parts left out are not relevant but they are very relevant to what Clement was saying. As I said, the Mormon website left them out because they were contrary to Mormon belief or because that gave the true picture of what Clement was describing; and it was not the three Mormon Kingdoms.

Yes, the Mormon website was disingenuous and I did address the issue: three degrees of glory. The issue was the Mormon website claiming Clement’s writings on the “degrees of glory in heaven” is the same thing Mormon’s believe about the three Kingdoms; and it is not. I also pointed out that Clement quoted the Book of Wisdom; and wrote that God does not have human form, there is only one God, and the highest level in the Church is the Bishop. He wrote this all in the same two Chapters he wrote about the degrees of glory. The early Church Fathers were Catholic, which is why so many people become Catholic after reading them; not proof-texting them but reading them. They were not Mormon.

 

[aspirant]

Sounds a lot like the formula of Liturgical readings for our Church. Do you have a reference I could pursue further?

It sounds similar because the public reading of the scriptures in Christian churches is a practice derived from the public reading of the Torah and haftarah in Jewish synagogues in the first century.

The annual or triennial cycle, whichever is used by a particular congregation, generally begins and ends on Simchat Torah.

 

[mfbukowski]

It sounds similar because the public reading of the scriptures in Christian churches is a practice derived from the public reading of the Torah and haftarah in Jewish synagogues in the first century.

The annual or triennial cycle, whichever is used by a particular congregation, generally begins and ends on Simchat Torah.

I am missing the point. It seems to me that Jesus condemned these practices. This is supposed to show what?

 

[mfbukowski]

What the Mormon website did was the equivalent of this:

What you think is “equivalent” and what I think is equivalent obviously differ, and I see no resolution.

So your point is that Clement did NOT believe in the three degrees of glory, when clearly he did?

 

[Marie5890]

I am missing the point. It seems to me that Jesus condemned these practices. This is supposed to show what?

What scripture are you thinking of where Jesus condemned the reading of scripture?

Is that what you are referring to as “condemned these practises”?

He read the Torah publically in the synogogue.

 

[mfbukowski]

What scripture are you thinking of where Jesus condemned the reading of scripture?

Is that what you are referring to as “condemned these practises”?

He read the Torah publically in the synogogue.

Of course he did, to condemn their practices and reason with them.

Read Matthew 23 - the whole chapter and then give me a comment on what Christ thought of those teaching in the synagogues.

It’s too long to post, and I would probably post the King James which you wouldn’t like anyway.

Edit: I am not saying he was against public reading of the scriptures, but what was taught and the practices of the synagogues. I am trying to understand why it is a good thing that Catholic practice parallels the practices of the synagogue.

 

[lax16]

Or for Mormons for that matter. Is the Pope’s opinion true for all Catholics?

Is RebeccaJ’s opinion true for all Mormons?

mfbukowski - I find Rebecca’s opinions to be very intelligent and enlightening. I don’t ever remember her saying, or even implying, that she is a spokesperson for the LDS religion, nor do I think anyone on this thread would mistake her for one. However, I have learned a tremendous amount from her experiences as a Mormon and from other former Mormons on CAF and in my life. Rebecca is really smart and it comes across in her posts.

Most people writing/reading posts on CAF seem to be pretty intelligent and I don’t think too many people would expect someone’s personal opinions to stand true for any one group or religion as a whole. Isn’t that pretty obvious to you, you know, the difference between opinion and doctrine?

Anyway, I think you know that my quote you referenced was in response to a completely different topic from the other night that, in my opinion, had NOTHING to do with one’s opinions on the Catholic or LDS faith. But, I’d rather not re-hash it.

As for myself, I do my best to follow all of the Church’s teachings and try to stay true to the Magesterium. I have not disagreed with the Pope’s opinions thus far, and if I did, I would pray for understanding and act in obedience until I came to a better understanding of his extremely enlightened opinon.

 

[Stephen168]

What you think is “equivalent” and what I think is equivalent obviously differ, and I see no resolution.

What I think is equivalent is clear to any reader of the original text.

So your point is that Clement did NOT believe in the three degrees of glory,

I think it has been explained to you three times now that Clement did NOT teach what Mormons teach.

Well, not exactly. The ECF’s had an understanding of the “heavens” as did their contemporaries, i.e. extending from the natural level - the heaven inhabited by the birds of the air, the heaven of the stars and other “heavenly” bodies like the stars and planets and comets, etc., to the spiritual heaven - of God’s temple. This is not descriptive of a spiritual heaven structured as a caste system like that described in Mormonism, where the top levels are restricted to those who know the esoteric secrets of the Mormon temple ceremonies. Such a notion is simply not in the scriptures. Indeed, what we know of heaven is simply limited to allegory and other comparative language. This is probably because what heaven is far exceeds what we can see with our limited imaginations.

When 1 Cor is comparing resurrected bodies to the stars and the moon, etc, this does not support the complex LDS version of heaven. The simpler answer, that is clear to the ECFs is that individuals will have differing levels of grace, but all will be filled to capacity. Think of it this way… One person lived a life filled with holiness and charity. They are like a gallon jar filled to the brim. Another lived a less holy life, but died in a state of grace. They are like a teacup but also filled to the brim. Both are complete. This does not mean the “cup” sized person is relegated to a lesser heaven. They are experiencing heaven to the fullest, just as the “gallon” sized person is. The gallon-sized person is not somehow “promoted” to godhood, while the “cup” sized person is relegated to a lesser eternal fate. Such a concept is not in scripture, or the writings of the ECFs.

The ECF quotations you provided only prove my point. I do not see how any of it supports the LDS version of Heaven being divided into a tiered caste system, with divine exhaltation limited to those who know the mysteries of the temple ceremony.

 

[mfbukowski]

Edit: I quoted the wrong post- this is to Stephen168

Look at chapters 13 and 14 below, both of which include in the title of the chapter the words “Degrees of Glory in Heaven” and tell me why it is an illusion that Clement believed in degrees of glory in heaven.

newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

Please explain this to me.

 

[mfbukowski]

I think it has been explained to you three times now that Clement did NOT teach what Mormons teach.

I never said he did, and in fact I called him “apostate”.

My sole point was that he taught the three degrees of glory in heaven, which he does clearly in the portions you yourself have quoted. Chapter 13 and 14

 

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski - I find Rebecca’s opinions to be very intelligent and enlightening. I don’t ever remember her saying, or even implying, that she is a spokesperson for the LDS religion, nor do I think anyone on this thread would mistake her for one. However, I have learned a tremendous amount from her experiences as a Mormon and from other former Mormons on CAF and in my life. Rebecca is really smart and it comes across in her posts.

Most people writing/reading posts on CAF seem to be pretty intelligent and I don’t think too many people would expect someone’s personal opinions to stand true for any one group or religion as a whole. Isn’t that pretty obvious to you, you know, the difference between opinion and doctrine?

Anyway, I think you know that my quote you referenced was in response to a completely different topic from the other night that, in my opinion, had NOTHING to do with one’s opinions on the Catholic or LDS faith. But, I’d rather not re-hash it.

As for myself, I do my best to follow all of the Church’s teachings and try to stay true to the Magesterium. I have not disagreed with the Pope’s opinions thus far, and if I did, I would pray for understanding and act in obedience until I came to a better understanding of his extremely enlightened opinon.

Fine, this is your opinion, and you have a right to it. I have no problem with that.