LDS and Catholic view of Heaven

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JMM1957 said:
Just my personal opinion here, but I think that rather than going into in depth discussion about the LDS view of heaven, we should be asking questions about the books themselves, that the LDS teachings about heaven come from, and why those books are considered authoritative to begin with.
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That is a very good and valid question. You’re welcome to start a new thread on it if you’d like.
 
JMM1957 said:
Horton, I am new to this discussion, could you please direct me to the LDS source(s) that define the prerequisites for attaining the Celestial kingdom, I would like to look at it myself. Thanks.
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In short: a person must fully embrace Christ. This is not just in whimsical word, but fully with all your body heart, mind, and soul (Christ helps you with doing this).
For more details: lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng
 
JMM1957 said:
Horton, I am new to this discussion, could you please direct me to the LDS source(s) that define the prerequisites for attaining the Celestial kingdom, I would like to look at it myself. Thanks.
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lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

Specifically:
From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
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JMM1957 said:
Just my personal opinion here, but I think that rather than going into in depth discussion about the LDS view of heaven, we should be asking questions about the books themselves, that the LDS teachings about heaven come from, and why those books are considered authoritative to begin with.
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I think thats a great question! As Jane said, perhaps start a new thread so as not to derail this one? I would be interested to hear the responses though!
 
Horton said:
I think you have missed an integral part of this debate. LDS teaching clearly states a person MUST be married to obtain the level of heaven i.e. the celestial kingdom. Of course a belief in God is necessary as well.

Catholic teaching is that our faith in God alone is all we need for salvation.

Conditions for LDS to achieve Celestial kingdom:
  1. Faith
  2. Being married
  3. endowments
Conditions for Catholics to go to heaven:
  1. Faith in God
You may disagree with Catholic belief, that is fine, but you can’t deny the truth of the basic premise of the two above statements. If you do deny the three conditions of the LDS to obtain the celestial kingdom is LDS teaching then please cite sources.
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jane_doe said:
In short: a person must fully embrace Christ. This is not just in whimsical word, but fully with all your body heart, mind, and soul (Christ helps you with doing this).
For more details: lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng
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Jane you haven’t responded to my question on this one. JMM1957 asked for a source for my comment which you provided but you made a statement contradicting what the source states.

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4)
 
jane_doe said:
In short: a person must fully embrace Christ. This is not just in whimsical word, but fully with all your body heart, mind, and soul (Christ helps you with doing this).
For more details: lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng
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From that same site (click on the View More)

Celestial Kingdom
:
:
From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
 
sallybutler said:
From that same site (click on the View More)

Celestial Kingdom
:
:
From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
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We already posted and discussed this paragraph and verse thoroughly.
 
jane_doe said:
We already posted and discussed this paragraph and verse thoroughly.
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Sorry Jane, where was it posted and discussed? I don’t want you to repeat yourself so just point me to the post numbers! 🙂
 
Truth_Faith13 said:
Sorry Jane, where was it posted and discussed? I don’t want you to repeat yourself so just point me to the post numbers! 🙂
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The main part was 61-71, though there was stuff before then, after, and other stuff intermixed between. If you feel I missed a point and/or want clarification, just ask about it.
 
jane_doe said:
The main part was 61-71, though there was stuff before then, after, and other stuff intermixed between. If you feel I missed a point and/or want clarification, just ask about it.
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Thanks! Is it just revelation that determined marriage was a requirement or is it based on scripture also?
 
jane_doe said:
The main part was 61-71, though there was stuff before then, after, and other stuff intermixed between. If you feel I missed a point and/or want clarification, just ask about it.
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I have asked repeatedly and you refuse to answer.
Truth_Faith13 said:
Thanks! Is it just revelation that determined marriage was a requirement or is it based on scripture also?
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It is only revelation although the LDS will twist & turn individual biblical scripture verses, taking them out context to make it appear scriptural. All Christianity believes the bible is the word of God and none of various Orthodox, Eastern, Catholic Churches or Protestant denominations interpret anything in the bible requires marriage for any part of heaven.
 
jane_doe said:
You are trying to twist things to say “loving your spouse/family makes God weak” (me paraphrasing). That is simply untrue. God is NOT made weak by love, and you keep trying to say that it does. I don’t know what home life you have, but yes I love my family and that does NOT weaken God. Do you not love your family?

The Celestial Kingdom has three degrees of glory within it, and the lower two are singles. That is scripture, the very chapter you posted- in fact you posted the exact next verse on this very thread. Did you not read what you’re quoting from? (Things like this are what make me think you’re not listening and/or don’t want to understand. I don’t know if that’s really the case, but it’s the impression I get).
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It’s not about twisting things nor is it about making God weak. it is asking the basic question that follows from a set of facts that ultimate happiness and bliss cannot be achieved by oneself or one’s faith in God alone but requires a spouse. I am not denying the importance of family but I do not believe having a spouse is required to achieve the highest state of blessedness in the next life, based on what Jesus and Saint Paul teach about marriage (they both accepted celibacy and Paul suggests that marriage does in a way distract us from God). You want to say that God is still sufficient for our happiness yet you also maintain that we need to be married in order to achieve an ultimate existence in the Celestial Kingdom. The two positions conflict with each other. If God alone is sufficient for our bliss and happiness in the next life then we wouldn’t need marriage since he can provide what is required in marriage. Since we do however need marriage according to you in order to be accepted into the highest Celestial Kingdom as per doctrines and covenants God is shown in some way unable to fulfil our happiness because being in the presence of God while good apparently cannot compare to having a husband and wife.

Now I can only speculate on why Mormons need a spouse in the next life to fulfil things which God cannot do. A permanent relationship seems to be the first among them, since all people in the highest celestial kingdom and access to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother would be severely limited by both time and space. Heavenly Father cannot see to all his children at once, whereas a spouse or companion can. I also think that in order to produce offspring in the next life you need a partner and Heavenly Father cannot participate in that since he is already married to his wife(s). You can dismiss this line of argumentation as not authoritative but it naturally follows from the basic Mormon beliefs.

If I have misused the term celestial then I am rightly corrected. But that doesn’t refute my main point. That the text I quoted discusses three degrees within the celestial glory of which the highest is reserved only for those whom are married. The unmarried therefore cannot obtain the highest because they have been unable to find a wife or husband. Given that you accept no one is compelled by God to do anything and that each has free will, it does seem possible that there are some who will be unable to be married to someone because they can’t find the right person either in this life or the next. Also I would ask you to provide a text which says everyone gets a chance to achieve marriage in the next life.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I agree.

Also Catholicism is about serving God, and so the Mormon teaching that those in the lower area of the celestial kingdom are servants to those who are “worthy of far more”, is just wrong, in more ways than one.

First, Yes Catholicism teaches that there will be different rewards, but doesn’t teach heaven has a caste system. Servant, is more like the calling of all Catholics. Not something to dangle out there as less “worthy”. Totally upside down to Catholic thinking. We serve our God, not try to make ourselves into gods, that comes with the benefit of unmarried servants for eternity.

Second, service to “the least” is the highest calling, not the less worthy. Service to humans who style themselves gods, would look more like gently bringing them to Christ, not fetching their golden slippers for eternity.

Third, Brigham Young took this further. Teaching that because those of African lineage were not worthy for Mormon ordinance of temple marriage, they would be servants forever. This being the default position for all people with “black” skin, in Mormon teaching, until 1978.
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jane, what’s this bolded above all about? Why the change of heart in 1978?
 
JMM1957 said:
Just my personal opinion here, but I think that rather than going into in depth discussion about the LDS view of heaven, we should be asking questions about the books themselves, that the LDS teachings about heaven come from, and why those books are considered authoritative to begin with.
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They were mostly written by Joseph Smith. He also made claims about the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, which have been proven to be false. I would conclude that there is no real Christian truth to these books either.
 
From LDS website:

“In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church.”

This must be a perfect example of an earlier prophets(s) teachings being “voided” in later times by later prophets, correct?
 
JMM1957 said:
From LDS website:

“In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church.”

This must be a perfect example of an earlier prophets(s) teachings being “voided” in later times by later prophets, correct?
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This would be best addressed in a new thread, if you would like to start one.
 
JMM1957 said:
From LDS website:

“In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church.”

This must be a perfect example of an earlier prophets(s) teachings being “voided” in later times by later prophets, correct?
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This is a perfect example of ever changing doctrine within the LDS. Originally the LDS believed those with dark skin, African Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics were dark because they were not of God, and their dark skin was a sign of their sinfulness.
 
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