LDS and JW's

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I suppose that you could be both JW and a LDS, since Christs’ salvation doesn’t matter to mormons. Only their church matters to them, since no other churchs’ baptisms count. So obvioulsy Christ does not matter to mormons; just like Christ isn’t important in the eyes of the J W’s.
 
I suppose that you could be both JW and a LDS, since Christs’ salvation doesn’t matter to mormons. Only their church matters to them, since no other churchs’ baptisms count. So obvioulsy Christ does not matter to mormons; just like Christ isn’t important in the eyes of the J W’s.
(grin)

Now that’s funny. I have to hand it to you, Zundrah, the above is truly masterful! I almost fell for it, too…but it was too much even for me.

Congrats.
 
1 Pet. 3:18: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit “by the Spirit,” KJ; “in the spirit,” RS, NE, Dy, JB].” (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)
I don’t claim to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar; but I don’t think one needs to be in order to come to a rational and satisfactory conclusion about this. There are enough Bible translations made by experts to help one come to a rational decision. Whether it is rendered “by the Spirit” or “in the Spirit” in this case doesn’t make a lot of difference. In either case the meaning is basically the same. It means being brought back to life by means, of or through the agency of, the Spirit. It does not mean that His spirit was brought to life and not His body. The expression “in the spirit” occurs 26 times in the New Testament of the KJV Bible. And in similar contexts it simply means by means of or through the agency of the Spirit. Here are some typical examples:

Romans 8:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 14:

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Galatians 3:

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh

Galatians 5:

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 6:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Philippians 3:

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

1Timothy 3:

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 17:

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 21:

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

All these verses simply mean by means of, or through the agency of the Spirit. The same applies to 1 Peter 3:18. Whether it is rendered “in the Spirit” or “by the Spirit,” in either case the meaning is the same. If there is an ambiguity or uncertainty, we seek help from other passages of scripture to see which interpretation is most convincingly supported; and the overwhelming evidence of the rest of the scriptures points towards a physical, bodily resurrection; therefore any ambiguity that might exist in 1 Peter 3:18 gets resolved in favor of that, not its opposite.

Continued … /
 
/… Continued
1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam [Jesus Christ, who we believe was perfect as was Adam when created] became a life-giving spirit.” (God’s perfect justice demanded Life for life… “eye for eye” not “leg for finger”–so perfect man for perfect man. Not God man for perfect man)
Apart from the fact that I disagree with the peculiar slant you are trying to put on this verse, I fail to see how it supports the argument that Jesus’ resurrection was spiritual and not physical, especially when read in its proper context:

1 Corinthians 15:

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

In these verses Paul is simply contrasting the glory of the resurrected bodies with the weak and corruptible nature of natural bodies, Jesus being shown as the highest example of this. Notice that it says that man will also receive a “spiritual body” after the resurrection. That simply means that he will receive a more glorious (physical) body, which will be quickened by the Spirit rather than by a natural agent such as “blood,” which is life giving agent of natural bodies. Nothing could be further from the interpretation of these verses than the suggestion Jesus will not be resurrected with a physical body.
. At the institution of the “Last Supper”, Jesus offered the unfermented bread to the 11 faithful apostles, saying: “This means* my body which is to be given in your behalf.” (Lu 22: The apostle Peter later said: “He [Jesus] himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake.”—1Pe 2:24; Heb 10:10; * (The same Gr. word at Matthew 12:
In order for Jesus to be “the last Adam” (1Co 15: and to be “a corresponding ransom for all [mankind],” his fleshly body had to be a real human body, no incarnation. (1Ti 2:5, 6; Mt 20: It had to be perfect, for it was to be sacrificed to present to Jehovah God the purchase price. (1Pe 1:18, 19; Heb 9: No imperfect human could provide the needed price.
(Ps 49:7-9) 7 "Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him;
8 (And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite)
9 That he should still live forever [and] not see the pit.
Okay, but I don’t see how your quoting of these verses supports the claim that Jesus’ resurrection was a spiritual and not physical. I don’t know how that relates to the discussion we are having.
After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7, 12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:, could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:
These are the commonest explanations I have heard from JWs to support their claim that Jesus was not resurrected with a physical body. But there are other possible explanations for these that are more plausible than the ones you have given. With regard to people not immediately recognizing Him, in the case of the two disciples He met on the road to Emmaus, the scripture says that “their eyes were holden that they should not know him” (Luke 24:16). That means that they were prevented from recognize Him by an act of God. How that was done we don’t know; but it does not mean that Jesus’ appearance had changed. The “change” was made in them, not in Jesus. Their eyes were “holden” (i.e. prevented) from recognizing Him. It was something that God had done to them to prevent them from recognizing Jesus, not to Jesus.

In the case of Mary not recognizing Him at the tomb, several explanations are possible. One possibility is that she, too, was prevented from recognizing Him because God did not want her to. Another possibility is that seeing Him alive after He had been buried was such an incredible thing to her that she simply couldn’t entertain the thought of such a possibility. But when Jesus drew her attention to Himself by calling out to her, she was finally made to acknowledge that it was Him.

In the case of Peter not recognizing Him in the fishing boat, okay, but John did. An obvious explanation as to why Peter hadn’t recognized Him at first is that they were too far out into the sea, while Jesus was on the shore. John was obviously more perceptive, so recognized Him more quickly. None of this proves that Jesus’ appearance had changed, or that His resurrected body was not physical.

With regard to Jesus appearing in closed rooms, or vanishing out of sight, I should have thought that if He could walk on the water, and raise the dead, and open the eyes of one born blind; that performing a “vanishing act” would have been for Him piece of cake, with or without a physical body! That is no proof that He was not resurrected with a physical body.

Continued … /
 
/…Continued
For this reason Jesus said to his Father when presenting himself for baptism, to begin his sacrificial course: “You prepared a body for me.”—Heb 10:5.
I still remain confused as to how these verses support the claim that Jesus was not resurrected with a physical body.

To conclude:

The arguments in favor of your claim are extremely weak. The only evidence you have produced that even relates to the claim are 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:45, and they require a lot of stretching to make them appear to support it. On the other hand, scriptural evidence against your claim are overwhelming:

1) The “empty tomb” is possibly the strongest evidence of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 28:

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

(See also Mark 16:1–8; Luke 24:1–6.) Why was the “emptiness of the tomb” so important in the narrative accounts of the resurrection, if it was not meant to signify that the resurrection of Jesus was a physical one, of His physical body?

2) The second strongest evidence of the physical nature of the resurrection was the showing the marks of His wounds to his disciples when He first appeared to them. Why would He want to do that if it was not for real? It would have been deception otherwise.

3) Jesus Himself testified before His Passion that His resurrection would be of His physical body, not something else:

John 2:

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

4) Even His enemies recognized that His resurrection should be a physical one, therefore they asked Pilate to provide a watch of soldiers to guard the tomb in case the body was stolen; and those very soldiers then became the greatest witnesses to His physical resurrection! Why should an angel come down and roll the stone away if the resurrection was not intended to be a physical one?

5) What would be the theological reason, justification, or logic behind a non-physical or a spiritual resurrection? Resurrection means to be brought back to life after death. Paul tells us that Jesus was “the first fruits of them that slept”:

1 Corinthians 15:

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

And the “first that should rise from the dead”:

Acts 26:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

That means that His resurrection was to set the pattern for the resurrection of everyone else. He was resurrected in the same way that everyone else will be resurrected, no difference. If everyone else’s resurrection would be a physical one (even by JW accounts), then Jesus’ resurrection should be physical too. Matthew in fact tells us that Jesus’ resurrection was immediately followed by the resurrection of many saints who had died before the time of Christ:

Matthew 27:

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So how were they resurrected? If their resurrection was physical (which it says it was), why should their resurrection have been any different from Jesus’ resurrection, when the scriptures clearly teach that their resurrection should follow the same pattern as Jesus’ resurrection?
 
(grin)

Now that’s funny. I have to hand it to you, Zundrah, the above is truly masterful! I almost fell for it, too…but it was too much even for me.

Congrats.
My post was just a crumb, and the actual cookie is very large!
 
I suppose that you could be both JW and a LDS, since Christs’ salvation doesn’t matter to mormons. Only their church matters to them, since no other churchs’ baptisms count. So obvioulsy Christ does not matter to mormons; just like Christ isn’t important in the eyes of the J W’s.
So obvioulsy Christ does not matter to mormons; just like Christ isn’t important in the eyes of the J W’s???

‘I am glad that you brought that up so I can tell you what we really believe. Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus.

‘The Bible clearly says . . . “*Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”(*Acts 4:12). I believe that. But we have also learned that serious responsibilities go with it. … if we really believe in Jesus, then we can’t believe in him just as far as it seems convenient. His perfect life given in sacrifice makes it possible for us to have forgiveness of sins. But I know that it is also vital to pay attention to his instructions regarding our responsibilities as Christians.

(Matthew 28:19-20) “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Here is a quote from one of our publications about the only thing we observe in way of Holy observances “Christ’s Memorial”: *To his faithful apostles Jesus said: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19) When writing to members of the spirit-begotten Christian congregation, the apostle Paul added: “As often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.” (1 Cor. 11:26) So, the Memorial calls special attention to the significance of the death of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. It highlights the meaning of Jesus’ sacrificial death particularly in relation to the new covenant and to the way that his death affects those who will be heirs with him of the heavenly Kingdom.—John 14:2, 3; Heb. 9:15.

The Memorial is also a reminder that Jesus’ death and the way it was accomplished, in harmony with God’s purpose as expressed at Genesis 3:15 and thereafter, served to vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty . By maintaining integrity to Jehovah
down till his death, Jesus proved that Adam’s sin was not due to any flaw in the Creator’s designing of man but that it is possible for a human to maintain perfect godly devotion even under severe pressure, and thus Jesus vindicated Jehovah God as Creator and Universal Sovereign. Besides that, Jehovah had purposed that Jesus’ death would provide the perfect human sacrifice needed to ransom Adam’s offspring, and thus make it possible for billions who would exercise faith to live forever in a paradise earth, in fulfillment of Jehovah’s original purpose and in expression of his great love for mankind.—John 3:16; Gen. 1:28.

What a tremendous burden rested upon Jesus on his last night on earth as a man! He knew what his heavenly Father had purposed for him, but he also knew that he had to prove faithful under test. Had he failed, what a reproach it would have meant for his Father and what a loss to humankind! Because of all that would be accomplished by means of his death, it was most fitting that Jesus instructed that it be memorialized.*

Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstandings.
 
So obvioulsy Christ does not matter to mormons; just like Christ isn’t important in the eyes of the J W’s???

‘I am glad that you brought that up so I can tell you what we really believe. Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus.

‘The Bible clearly says . . . “*Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”(*Acts 4:12). I believe that. But we have also learned that serious responsibilities go with it. … if we really believe in Jesus, then we can’t believe in him just as far as it seems convenient. His perfect life given in sacrifice makes it possible for us to have forgiveness of sins. But I know that it is also vital to pay attention to his instructions regarding our responsibilities as Christians.

(Matthew 28:19-20) “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Here is a quote from one of our publications about the only thing we observe in way of Holy observances “Christ’s Memorial”: *To his faithful apostles Jesus said: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19) When writing to members of the spirit-begotten Christian congregation, the apostle Paul added: “As often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.” (1 Cor. 11:26) So, the Memorial calls special attention to the significance of the death of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. It highlights the meaning of Jesus’ sacrificial death particularly in relation to the new covenant and to the way that his death affects those who will be heirs with him of the heavenly Kingdom.—John 14:2, 3; Heb. 9:15.

The Memorial is also a reminder that Jesus’ death and the way it was accomplished, in harmony with God’s purpose as expressed at Genesis 3:15 and thereafter, served to vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty . By maintaining integrity to Jehovah
down till his death, Jesus proved that Adam’s sin was not due to any flaw in the Creator’s designing of man but that it is possible for a human to maintain perfect godly devotion *even under severe pressure, and thus Jesus vindicated Jehovah God as Creator and Universal Sovereign. Besides that, Jehovah had purposed that Jesus’ death would provide the perfect human sacrifice needed to ransom Adam’s offspring, and thus make it possible for billions who would exercise faith to live forever in a paradise earth, in fulfillment of Jehovah’s original purpose and in expression of his great love for mankind.—John 3:16; Gen. 1:28.

What a tremendous burden rested upon Jesus on his last night on earth as a man! He knew what his heavenly Father had purposed for him, but he also knew that he had to prove faithful under test. Had he failed, what a reproach it would have meant for his Father and what a loss to humankind! Because of all that would be accomplished by means of his death, it was most fitting that Jesus instructed that it be memorialized.

Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstandings.
You do not believe that he was God.
 
In the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”. ]

Lots to talk about. Let’s start with: In the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.

So man’s death is linked with the spirit’s returning to God, this indicating that man’s life in some way depends upon that spirit.

In the original-language text of Ecclesiastes 12:7, the Hebrew word translated “spirit” or “life breath” is ru′ahh. The corresponding Greek term is pneu′ma. While our life does depend on the breathing process, the English word “breath” (as numerous translators often render the words ru′ahh and pneu′ma) is not always a suitable alternate translation for “spirit.” Furthermore, other Hebrew and Greek words, namely, ne•sha•mah′ (Hebrew) and pno•e′ (Greek), are also translated as “breath.” (See Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:25.) . . .
I was aware that that verse was capable of being interpreted (or perhaps I should say misinterpreted) in different ways, as I had mentioned. That is why I didn’t quote it in isolation, but in conjunction with other passages of scripture that together form a strong case for my argument. It is the combined force of all the scriptural verses I had given that overwhelming supports my case, not the individual verses taken in isolation.
 
…but then how do you account for the case of Samuel being called up from the dead to communicate with Saul? (1 Samuel 28:7-14.) If he had no immortal spirit or soul, how could it be called up from the dead to converse with Saul?

A little background for the other readers… because of his unfaithfulness to Jehovah God, King Saul was cut off from divine direction for carrying out his responsibilities. Therefore, when the Philistines came to wage war against him, in desperation he sought help from a spirit medium. He asked her to bring up the dead prophet Samuel.:eek:
1 Samuel 28:12-15.

Was Saul, in this case, actually brought in touch with the dead prophet Samuel? How could this be, for the Bible links silence, not talking, with death? We read: “The dead themselves do not praise Jah [Jehovah], nor do any going down into silence.”—Psalm 115:17.
Well, not exactly. There is a right way of hearing from the dead, and a wrong way:

Isaiah 8:

19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Doing it through a spiritual medium is the wrong way. Doing it through God is the right way. The fact that the dead are not really dead (nor silent), but in fact very much alive but living in a different sphere of existence, is testified of by the fact that Jesus after His death went and preached to them:

1 Peter 4:

6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
We believe other passages of the Holy Scriptures shed light on the matter.
First, it is clear Zerinus that what Saul did in consulting a spirit medium was a violation of God’s law. Both spirit mediums and those consulting them were judged guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:6, 27) God’s law to Israel stated: “Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.” (Leviticus 19:31) “When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead.”—Deuteronomy 18:9-11; Isaiah 8:19, 20.
Against this background, consider the case of Saul. Regarding divine communication with him, Saul acknowledged: “God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, either by means of the prophets or by dreams; so that I am calling you [Samuel] to let me know what I shall do.” (1 Samuel 28:15) Should anyone really believe God would allow a spirit medium to get around this divine cutoff of communication by getting in touch with a dead prophet and having him deliver a message from God to Saul? Then, too, during the latter part of his life, Samuel himself, a faithful prophet of God, had ceased to have any dealings whatsoever with Saul. Would it not be unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that Samuel was willing to speak with Saul by means of a spirit medium, an arrangement that was condemned by God?
Who was this person? A demon pretending to be Samuel… (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) 14* “And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.”*
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) 9 "But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.“
I agree that there is a problem here with Saul seeking to commune with Samuel though a spiritual medium which had been forbidden in the Law of Moses. But contrasting that with the fact that Samuel did appear to him, and did give him correct advice that should have come from the Lord, and a prophecy that was fulfilled, coupled with the fact that the writers of the sacred writ considered it worthy of being recorded in the sacred annals of the Hebrew scripture, suggests that we shouldn’t be too hasty in judging it as having come from an evil source. We don’t know enough about how these things operated in those days to be able to say definitely that it must have come from an evil source. I think it would be unsafe to hurriedly jump to that conclusion.
Question for YOU…How do you explaun Eccl. 9:5?
I look at it in its broader context:

Ecclesiastes 9:

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

He is giving us “worldly wisdom”. What he is saying is that one should make the most of one’s opportunities here in this life while it lasts, because it doesn’t last very long, and once you have missed your chances in this life you have basically lost it. That is the idea he is trying to convey. He is not saying that when you die you vanish into oblivion—although it may sound like that is what he is saying.
 
It’s all about Ed Decker completely misrepresenting our beliefs.

And it’s not even good animation, either.
The animation is very poor, and most of that cartoon was sooooo incorrect (I hope). But anyway, at least it will put people off of becoming a mormon.
 
I don’t claim to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar; but I don’t think one needs to be in order to come to a rational and satisfactory conclusion about this. There are enough Bible translations made by experts to help one come to a rational decision. Whether it is rendered “by the Spirit” or “in the Spirit” in this case doesn’t make a lot of difference.

I appreciate all the research… I too believe that there are all kinds of facets to the word spirit. notice: Spirit Used on Behalf of God’s Servants. A principal operation of God’s spirit involves its ability to inform, to illuminate, to reveal things. Therefore David could pray: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Your spirit is good; may it lead me in the land of uprightness.” (Ps 143:10) Much earlier, Joseph had given the interpretation of Pharaoh’s prophetic dreams, being enabled to do so by God’s help. The Egyptian ruler recognized the operation of God’s spirit in him. (Ge 41:16, 25-39) This illuminating power of the spirit is particularly notable in prophecy. Prophecy, as the apostle shows, did not spring from human interpretation of circumstances and events; it was not the result of some innate ability of the prophets to explain the meaning and significance of these or to forecast the shape of coming events. Rather, such men were “borne along by holy spirit”—conveyed, moved, and guided by God’s active force. (2Pe 1:20, 21; 2Sa 23:2; Zec 7:12; Lu 1:67; 2:25-35; Ac 1:16; 28:25;

So, too, all the inspired Scriptures were “inspired of God,” which translates the Greek the•o′pneu•stos, meaning, literally, “God-breathed.” (2Ti 3:16) The spirit operated in various manners in communicating with such men and guiding them, in some cases causing them to see visions or dreams (Eze 37:1; Joe 2:28, 29; Re 4:1, 2; 17:3; 21:10), but in all cases operating on their minds and hearts to motivate and guide them according to God’s purpose.—Da 7:1; Ac 16:9, 10; Re 1:10, 11;

God’s spirit, then, not only brings revelation and understanding of God’s will but also energizes his servants to accomplish things in accord with that will. That spirit acts as a driving force that moves and impels them, even as Mark says the spirit “impelled” Jesus to go into the wilderness after his baptism. (Mr 1:12; compare Lu 4:1.) It can be like a “fire” within them, causing them to be “aglow” with that force (1Th 5:19; Ac 18:25; Ro 12:11), in a sense ‘building up steam’ or pressure in them to do certain work. (Compare Job 32:8, 18-20; 2Ti 1:6, 7.) They receive the “power of the spirit,” or “power through his spirit.” (Lu 2:27; Eph 3:16; compare Mic 3:8.)

Yet it is not merely some unconscious, blind impulse, for their minds and hearts are affected as well so that they can intelligently cooperate with the active force given them. Thus the apostle could say of those who had received the gift of prophecy in the Christian congregation that the “gifts of the spirit of the prophets are to be controlled by the prophets,” so that good order might be maintained.—1Co 14:31-33.

Variety of operations. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3) As Paul wrote of the miraculous gifts of the spirit in his day: “Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons. But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose.”—1Co 12:4-7.
The spirit has qualifying force or capacity; it can qualify persons for a work or for an office. Though Bezalel and Oholiab may have had knowledge of crafts before their appointment in connection with the making of the tabernacle equipment and priestly garments, God’s spirit ‘filled them with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge’ so that the work could be done in the way purposed. It heightened whatever natural abilities and acquired knowledge they already had, and it enabled them to teach others. (Ex 31:1-11; 35:30-35) The architectural plans for the later temple were given to David by inspiration, that is, through the operation of God’s spirit, thus enabling David to undertake extensive preparatory work for the project.—1Ch 28:12.
God’s spirit acted on and through Moses in prophesying and performing miraculous acts, as well as in leading the nation and acting as judge for it, thereby foreshadowing the future role of Christ Jesus. (Isa 63:11-13; Ac 3:20-23) However, Moses as an imperfect human found the load of responsibility heavy, and God ‘took away some of the spirit that was on Moses and placed it upon 70 older men’ so that they might help in carrying the load. (Nu 11:11-17, 24-30) The spirit also became operative on David from the time of his anointing by Samuel onward, guiding and preparing him for his future kingship.—1Sa 16:13.
Joshua became “full of the spirit of wisdom” as Moses’ successor. But the spirit did not produce in him the ability to prophesy and perform miraculous works to the extent that it had in Moses. (De 34:9-12) However, it enabled Joshua to lead Israel in the military campaign that brought about the conquest of Canaan. Similarly, Jehovah’s spirit “enveloped” other men, ‘impelling’ them as fighters on behalf of God’s people, fighters such as Othniel, Gideon, Jephthah, and Samson.—Jg 3:9, 10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24, 25; 14:5, 6, 19; 15:14.
The spirit of God energized men to speak his message of truth boldly and courageously before opposers and at the risk of their lives.—Mic 3:8.
Its being ‘poured out’ on his people is evidence of his favor, and it results in blessings and makes them prosper.—Eze 39:29; Isa 44:3, 4.

BUT STILL…44 *It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body *not A PHYSICAL ONE.
I have explained as much as I can on this. Now regarding MT 27
 
BUT STILL…44 *It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body *not A PHYSICAL ONE.
I have explained as much as I can on this. Now regarding MT 27
I am not sure what you are trying to prove by that. I had emphasized that verse because it refers to the resurrection of mankind, not of Jesus. Yet we know that the resurrection of mankind will be a physical one, not a spiritual one; and as far as I can recall that is what JWs believe as well (although they differ in not believing in an immortal spirit). So that verse actually works against your argument, not in favor of it.
 
Mormons believe that God was a man once and that he walked the Earth just like Christ did, flesh and blood!
 
/… Continued

That simply means that he will receive a more glorious (physical) body, which will be quickened by the Spirit rather than by a natural agent such as “blood,” which is life giving agent of natural bodies.

Where does the Bible say this? Did you read 1 Cor 15? Does this really say a “more glorious (physical) body”?

"35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies; 37 and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, and there is another flesh of cattle, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in *corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, **afterward **that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48 As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one."

I still stand by what I said eailier:

After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14,*15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7,12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1,*12; Jos 5:13,*14; Jg 13:3,*6; Heb 13:2)
Also, During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19,*20; 2Pe 2:4.

Reagarding "(1 Peter 3:18-19) ..**.Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, it’s coming up soon.
 
First let me say to everyone…that all of my answers are not given to change your beliefs. They are simply what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe…(Acts 28:22) What you do with the information is up to you.

(Matthew 27:52-53) 52 *And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, 53 (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people. * NWT

Think about it; what does an earthquake do to cemeteries?

Epiphanius and other early Church Fathers taught that the holy ones literally came to life and went with the resurrected Jesus to heaven. Augustine, Theophylactus, and Zigabenus believed that these dead ones received a temporary resurrection but later returned to their tombs. The latter opinion, however, “did not gain wide recognition,” comments scholar Erich Fascher. When rendering Matthew 27:52, 53, many modern Bible translations give the impression that a resurrection took place. Not so the New World Translation, which points to the effects of an earthquake. Why?

Well, whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were.
Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e•gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)

We believe the upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) ALSO— The other three gospels don’t mention the resurrection of these saints. Partly for this reason, many biblical scholars doubt that it really happened. They argue that such an extraordinary event, if it really occurred, would provide strong evidence for the divinity of Jesus, and therefore the other gospel writers would have also described it.

Another reason for doubt is that these resurrected saints would have created a lot of excitement when they appeared in Jerusalem, and a historian like Josephus, who wrote a detailed account of the period, probably would have said something about it. But he doesn’t mention it at all.
The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, for **on the third day thereafter, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” **(Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.—1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14-17.

Who were those that “entered into the holy city” a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected? As seen above, the exposed bodies remained lifeless, so Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Matthew is referring to persons *who visited the tombs *and brought news of the event into Jerusalem. NOW HOW DOES ALL OF THIS COMPARE WITH THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS? THAT’S NEXT.
 
First let me say to everyone…that all of my answers are not given to change your beliefs. They are simply what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe…(Acts 28:22) What you do with the information is up to you.

(Matthew 27:52-53) 52 *And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, 53 (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people. * NWT

Think about it; what does an earthquake do to cemeteries?

Epiphanius and other early Church Fathers taught that the holy ones literally came to life and went with the resurrected Jesus to heaven. Augustine, Theophylactus, and Zigabenus believed that these dead ones received a temporary resurrection but later returned to their tombs. The latter opinion, however, “did not gain wide recognition,” comments scholar Erich Fascher. When rendering Matthew 27:52, 53, many modern Bible translations give the impression that a resurrection took place. Not so the New World Translation, which points to the effects of an earthquake. Why?

Well, whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were.
Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e•gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69)

We believe the upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and, in 1962, in Colombia.

This view of the event harmonizes with Bible teachings. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) ALSO— The other three gospels don’t mention the resurrection of these saints. Partly for this reason, many biblical scholars doubt that it really happened. They argue that such an extraordinary event, if it really occurred, would provide strong evidence for the divinity of Jesus, and therefore the other gospel writers would have also described it.

Another reason for doubt is that these resurrected saints would have created a lot of excitement when they appeared in Jerusalem, and a historian like Josephus, who wrote a detailed account of the period, probably would have said something about it. But he doesn’t mention it at all.
The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life in the way Epiphanius thought, for **on the third day thereafter, Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” **(Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.—1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14-17.

Who were those that “entered into the holy city” a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected? As seen above, the exposed bodies remained lifeless, so Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Matthew is referring to persons *who visited the tombs *and brought news of the event into Jerusalem. NOW HOW DOES ALL OF THIS COMPARE WITH THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS? THAT’S NEXT.
I had no idea that johova witnesses believed this! Wow… I’m seriously shocked! :whacky:
 
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